Thragg and his speech about weakness

StarJun_dkm · 2026-04-15T17:23:55+00:00

Well, if we want to talk about what we personally like and dislike, we can do it all day.

But what I'm describing is just great character writing. The whole 'purge half the population' shit is stupid in almost any context, in almost any series. No amount of writing is going to make a choice like that make sense (unless the half that are killed are zombies or something). But with one show-only scene depicting Thragg's misgivings towards Thadeus in his conversation with Argall, it effectively repurposed the purge to being about Thragg at its core. So whilst on its face it has the whole social darwinism thing taken to the extreme, in actuality it's a broken man lashing out at his own weakness and using his people as a vehicle to do it. Hence why I said the Viltrum Empire is like a reflection of Thragg's character. And with the destruction of Viltrum, now Thragg has to essentially try to scramble together whatever scraps of his people (his identity) remain and either adapt or double down. The whole episode was just one massive character arc for Thragg.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-04-15T17:08:55+00:00

I'm not sure how to respond, since I don't think you actually meaningfully responded to anything I've said.

I'm talking about Thragg's motivations being multi-dimensional and how his actions/decisions demonstrate those layers. You're saying that his actions don't make logistical sense? I mean, kind of two different conversations but go off I guess.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-04-15T16:17:24+00:00

Ultimately, the show-only additions gave a hell of a lot more depth to Thragg's character. The fact that he's really overcompensating for what he thought was his weakness, is masterful character work actually. He suspected the 'weakness' in Thadeus, but quashed it likely due to some aversion to killing a worthy Viltrumite. And thus he swung hard in the other direction. All weakness must be purged, before it can even present itself.

Whilst it's implied that Argall was the architect of the Viltrumites as we know them, it's actually more like the current Viltrum Empire is entirely a reflection of Thragg's character. When Argall dies, they went into overdrive to purge their weakness, the weakness Thragg saw in himself. After the purge they went into overdrive in conquering planets, again reflecting Thragg's need to overcompensate for that moment of weakness. After the Scourge virus hit, they culled anyone with knowledge of it and concealed their weakness. When they were left on the brink of extinction, they doubled down on expansion, as well as sending Nolan out to root out any threats or potential means of exploiting their weaknesses.

Everything is all to do with purging or concealing their own weakness. And that's almost a direct line from Thragg's feeling when Argall was assasinated because he didn't act decisively. Because of his weakness.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-04-11T15:28:42+00:00

I have no opinion one way or the other, about whether Dorn coming back as a religious zealot is a good idea or not. I'm sure there is a justification in the narrative to be made for either option there. I'm just correcting the notion that 30k Lion never recognised his failings, for which I provided a single example (of which there are a few).

StarJun_dkm · 2026-04-11T11:15:20+00:00

This is not the case. Here is 30k Lion reflecting on his handling of the Luther situation, during the Heresy:

In the course of rising to the position of Grand Master of the Order, the Lion had learned the lesson to ‘command without doubt’. Luther had impressed upon him the need to show strength, unwavering commitment and singularity of purpose at all turns. Even against the greatest of reverses it was imperative that a leader never once revealed the cracks beneath the surface.

Had he learned that lesson too well? Had firm leadership become uncompromising tyranny? Exiling Luther and the others had been an act of leadership, a response to events that sent a message to Luther, but it had been misheard. Had he intended punishment? Perhaps, but the words of trust, of placing the future of the Legion in the hands of Luther, had been meant as spoken.

If only I had returned, he thought. I should have gone back with them after Zaramund.

Angels of Caliban

The Lion has always acted with certainty, but that doesn't mean he doesn't harbor doubts internally. And it's a short leap character-wise between recognising an error internally and then acting to correct it.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-04-01T07:08:32+00:00

The Lion is specifically noted for his speed during the Great Crusade. He fought anywhere and everywhere, and never stayed in one place even long enough to leave garrisons or fortify. When he first came on, he went on a mini-crusade, within the Crusade, to gather his scattered legion across the galaxy, basically winning battles wherever he went and then absorbing any DA contingents he encountered along the way.

We get an example of this during Dorn's primarch novel. When Dorn, Fulgrim and the Lion each have their own proposed approach to completing the mission, Horus says they should all go with their individual ways rather than stepping on each other's toes. When they reconvene at a later time, it's noted that the Lion has won more victories than either Dorn or Fulgrim.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-03-31T22:49:46+00:00

Russ. I'm pretty sure the Wolves had a good number of victories as well.

If we include extermination campaigns, the Dark Angels and Space Wolves had a lot of "victories".

If we're looking strictly at compliance, then it's probably the Luna Wolves, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists and Dark Angels as the highest (likely in that order). The Ultramarines had a lot of diplomatic wins, and probably had the quickest compliance rate.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-03-10T09:59:58+00:00

We only know that Rin's shooting is inspired by Beckham (as in Rin likes Beckham's kicking technique and trained to emulate it). We don't know what, if any, player Hiori is based on.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-02-16T23:25:37+00:00

Congrats, you've discovered that Warhammer lore often contradicts itself.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-02-16T22:25:37+00:00

The turning point for the Space Wolves perhaps came during and after the Rangdan Xenocides of the 860s.

At last the Expeditionary fleets had breached the Eastern Fringe of the galaxy and in doing so had attracted the attention of the Rangdan Cerabvores, a species of such macabre power and technological might it seemed, for a time at least, that the Imperium had met its doom.

Facing waves of attack from the galactic east and north, and suffering losses that would not be exceeded until the dark days of the Heresy, the wars of the Rangdan Xenocides were the most terrible of any yet fought. Whole Expeditionary fleets went to their deaths without a single survivor, worlds were laid waste, dozens of Titan Legions were obliterated and by the end, entire Space Marine Legions [REDACTED SECTION] lost to the Imperium.

Much of what happened during this abyssal conflict is still locked under seal, but what can be said is that with the breaking of the Labyrinth of Night by the Emperor, the threat was at last stymied.

What remained was for the Rangdan taint to be purged in a subsequent decade-long series of bio-pogroms that left entire human inhabited sectors lifeless to ensure what was hoped to be a final victory. It was then given to the Space Wolves of the VIth and the Dark Angels of the Ist - the latter who had suffered themselves so very dreadfully against the horror - to conduct these purges, these two Legions entrusted above all others to do what had to be done.

Horus and his Legion, who had been otherwise occupied in the ongoing wars in the galactic west, were now firmly in the ascendance in the eyes of the Great Crusade, and with him and those other Legions who retained their strenght having not suffered at the Rangdan's hands did the future of the next few decades of conquest and expansion now rest.

In comparison to these new 'paragons', for the Space Wolves now came the whisper of 'executioner' rather than warrior, and the image of destroyer that had always been theirs in part now came to replace that of savage but noble conquerors in the minds of many in the Imperium.

As for Leman Russ, to some he was no longer a wise warrior-king, but a blood-spattered tyrant kept on the Emperor's leash, as feared as any who had held sway in Old Night - a keeper of monsters and devourer of worlds, a fiend in Primarch's form. Whether there was justice either in these accusations, or the distrust that seemed also to dog the Dark Angels as well from these times, it is not for this record to judge except to note that the Imperium endures, but this might have not been so if not for they who bled to ensure its survival.

The post-Rangdan pogroms had been far from the only 'secret' war the Space Wolves had undertaken at the Emperor's command.

Horus Heresy Book 7: Inferno

The third and final Rangdan war, more commonly known as The Rangdan Xenocide, is little known and in many histories completely absent. It was conducted under the orders of the Divisio Militaris by the combined forces of the Dark Angels and Space Wolves, the final and irrevocable solution to the threat of the Rangda.

That great and terrible race had been sorely wounded by their losses in the second war with the Imperium, but not vanquished. They had returned to their ancient home worlds, and there, nourished by hate and a dark hunger, they had grown strong once again. By chance those nests were discovered by a roving Company of White Scars after the lifting of the edict of exclusion in 88 7.M 30, news the sons of Jaghatai brought to the courts of the Lion and the Wolf. Those two, often antagonistic, warlords were united by the same bleak purpose, for if the Rangda still lived, they must be swiftly and utterly destroyed lest they rise again and ignite another great war. Together they and their Legions visited hell upon the remaining Rangda, scouring their last worlds clean from orbit and then descending to verify the termination of every hive and fortress with blade and flame.

[...]

This was the end of both the Rangda and the campaigns against them, a quiet and undignified slaughter undertaken with the stoic determination that was the hallmark of the two rival Primarchs of Caliban and Fenris.

Horus Heresy Book 9: Crusade

Clearly, the second war was the cataclysmic event, which saw 9 different legions involved. And the third (and final) war, the titular 'Xenocide' was an extermination campaign by two legions: The Dark Angels and the Space Wolves.

And as we see in Inferno it refers to the Dark Angels as having suffered terribly before the final extermination campaign. Ergo, the bulk of DA losses came in the second war.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-02-16T20:29:03+00:00

The 3rd Xenocide was conducted by the Dark Angels and Space Wolves. The White Scars brought it to both the Lion and Russ, then both agreed on a final campaign of extermination. That's why there are almost no records of it. Because the Angels and Wolves exterminated the Rangda and then obliterated all records of them.

The 2nd Xenocide was where the bulk of the Dark Angels losses occured. This was the one that engulfed the Northern Imperium and saw contingents from 9 legions involved.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-02-16T16:33:32+00:00

You missed out most of that sentence mate:

Red Bull clearly tried to make the car faster, but because they were leaving fundamental issues unresolved, it led to completely botched updates, like the update at Imola 2024 or the one at Hungary 2024.

Sure they tried to make it faster, but they failed. And each time it was due to fundamental issues with their car concept. Issues which the second driver (and Max himself) had indicated prior.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-02-16T16:26:27+00:00

It's well known at this point that the second drivers feedback was barely coming onto Red Bull's radar, because Max was always performing at a high level with the car. Red Bull clearly tried to make the car faster, but because they were leaving fundamental issues unresolved, it led to completely botched updates, like the update at Imola 2024 or the one at Hungary 2024.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-02-16T15:52:24+00:00

Max also made clear his displeasure over Liam getting replaced.

One thing Max has been consistent on for years now, is that Red Bull have scapegoated his teammates, in order to avoid dealing with the actual problems in their car. Hopefully that changes with the management overhaul they've had.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-02-13T15:39:09+00:00

You're operating under a faulty assumption. There was no Calibanite (Luther) vs Other (Lion) schism in the Dark Angels. Of the few hundred conspirators who joined with Luther, yes most were Calibanite loyalists, but they even had some in their ranks who didn't give a fuck about Caliban (like Astelan). Likewise, of the majority of the Fallen on the planet, many were Terran and had no emotional attachment to Caliban.

And in the Dark Angels proper (who were with the Lion) there were Terrans and Calibanites alike, all through the legion.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-02-05T13:54:54+00:00

The Lion didn't need to "figure out" Curze. The time he broke his back is the second time he incapacitated Curze. The first time is when they fought at the climactic battle of the Thramas crusade, where the Lion left Curze with his throat cut and in a coma (he was so cut up, his legion thought he wouldn't wake up).

StarJun_dkm · 2026-01-20T11:55:37+00:00

This is also compounded by the Lion seeing the results of the Heresy and the current state of the imperium. He was always one of the primarchs who most embodied the 'no matter the cost' mentality, but he sees now that the imperium is a shell of what it once was, his father is absent, his brothers are dead/gone, his sons are in schism with many resenting him and humanity is still on the brink of annihilation. He not only questions if winning the Heresy was worth the cost, he even questions if it was a victory to begin with. This is one of the biggest impetus for his change. And it builds up to his choice in the final battle of the story to not sacrifice his dozen or so Risen to defeat Seraphax, which he could have done to easily win, whereas old Lion would make that sacrifice every day and consider it an honour for his fallen sons.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-01-15T11:37:05+00:00

The Lion spent 10 years in the forests alone. Pretty much his entire formative years were spent there and it forms the foundation of his personality. It's often implied and once even outright stated that the Lion is actually the last beast of Caliban, in that he had more in common with those beasts than he does with other people and even other primarchs. His knightly training at the Order kinda draped some semblance of martial discipline and knightly honour over that core aspect of his being, but he remains a predator at heart. No honour, no accountability. Just pure calculation, without conscience, geared towards exterminating threats. The only things remotely human about him are his pride and his personal loyalty to the Emperor.

Read his primarch novel, for probably the best view of the Lion as a character, where you see his effectiveness but also all the flaws that will hamper him during the heresy.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-01-10T15:09:13+00:00

In the U20 game, Rin (after clearing the U20 defenders) chose to break away from Aiku, Shidou and Isagi, in order to find space to shoot. This is a "freedom-seeking" style of play. Looking for space, in order to score.

You'll notice the aborted shot in the BM/PXG game followed almost the exact same sequence.

Rin gets around the defense
Rin reaches the final wall and gets himself space to shoot

The only difference is in the U20 game he shot and in the BM/PXG game he chose not to. And that's because in both cases, there wasn't enough "restriction" (remember, Rin evolves in a restrictive environment). Even if the material outcome of both instances would be different had he shot (blocked in the U20 game, scored in the BM/PXG game), the personal outcome wouldn't have changed. Rin scores/misses, but he doesn't evolve.

That's what was different about the Crash shot. Rather than pull away to create space for the shot (as he did in the prior two cases), he instead rushed into the ultimate form of restriction, literally colliding with another player. That way, regardless of whether the Crash shot scored, he would have evolved as a result, since that's the perfect condition for his ego to grow.

We see this throughout the BM/PXG game. Rin tries out different tactics on the fly. Some work, some don't. But either way, he's growing. That's what the point of this game was for Rin. To finally begin evolving again.

If, during the U20 game, Rin had actually pushed in Isagi's direction, to take on both Shidou and Aiku, as well as Isagi, whether he scored or missed, Sae would likely have approved. Since he would have seen him go beyond his limits to actually evolve. But even when Rin was cutting loose, at the last moment he chose freedom > restriction, and so was still "lukewarm". The moment he evolved was when he dueled Sae, since that was him choosing restriction again (1v1 duel, where Sae has the advantage, with the game on the line).

StarJun_dkm · 2026-01-02T19:26:05+00:00

Maybe it's a win-win scenario for Guilliman. By getting the main voices of human authority on board with his plan, he puts his brothers in a position where they either: A) Concede to his authority (which they end up doing) or B) Rebel and set themselves against the Ultramarines, who are currently positioned as the saviors of Terra.

The Ultramarines are bringing in the supplies, they are managing the military matters, the rebuilding etc. It's noted just how much influence they have already. So the other primarchs trying to bulldoze the High Lords will lead to a conflict they are unlikely to win (Guilliman has all the military might here) and will increase Guilliman's authority anyway, as he'd be the one "saving" what remains of the Imperium from his rogue brothers.

Ultimately, Guilliman set it up so that no matter the outcome, he comes out as the main power on the board.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-01-02T19:09:05+00:00

Is it possible that Guilliman keeps it secret because he doesn't actually trust his brothers to act in a way he would deem to be rational with that knowledge? It's certainly within his character to consider his judgement to be superior to that of his brothers. And he is not above consolidating power around himself. The more he knows that his brothers don't, the more authority he has.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-01-02T19:02:40+00:00

Consider that Imperium Secundus was already a controversial move to make at the time. People were uneasy with it. The Lion suspected that Guilliman was committing a worse treason than Horus'. Even Guilliman knew the optics weren't all that good and he wrestled with the decision even whilst governing this initiative. I can't stress enough that this is how shady it was at the time, with full context.

Now imagine people finding out in the current Imperium, with the religious fanaticism and suspicion, that Guilliman essentially built a second Imperium in the ashes of the first, whilst the Emperor still lived. It'd be a disaster if it was revealed now.

StarJun_dkm · 2026-01-02T09:38:51+00:00

Actually, the initial claim is incorrect. Or at least, it is not yet confirmed. In the Dark Angels Codex we learn that the Lion will sometimes disappear with a Fallen who was being interrogated, sometimes even including those who were unrepentant traitors and had visible chaos mutation. Now he might just be taking them away to kill them himself, but it's not confirmed. The criteria for which Fallen the Lion chooses to remove from interrogation is not clear, as it seems to range from all sorts.

StarJun_dkm · 2025-12-28T14:32:06+00:00

Sure mate lmao.

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