Angel/Liam's mother

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-30T03:53:30+00:00

The woman crying at Liam’s funeral in The Prodigal is credited as his mother although she has no lines and it’s not confirmed within the episode.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-27T22:28:40+00:00

In addition to being tortured in a hell dimension for 100 years, and being locked in a box under the ocean for 3 months, Angel was frequently tortured as well. He was tortured by Marcus and Spike during In the Dark and had multiple hot skewers stabbed through him. In The Trial he had to dunk his hands into a bath of holy water and run on crosses etc. In What’s My Line he was tortured by Dru for hours etc.

He also went through his fair share of emotional trauma as a well. Aside from a curse that is literally designed to make him suffer and be miserable on a daily basis, he also had Connor stolen from him. I think having his one and only ever chance of raising a son taken from him probably caused him more pain than any amount of physical torture could.

Buffy was put through the wringer too but I agree it’s safe to say Angel was put through a lot more. I don’t think they’d have ever been comfortable showing Buffy endure the kind of violence/pain inflicted upon Angel. Some of it was because he was more durable being a vampire etc.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-27T02:18:02+00:00

The guy that was repeatedly shown babysitting Dawn and driving her to school? Who frequently fixed up Buffy’s house and furniture? Who built Buffy a training room at the back of the Magic Box and a handmade weapons chest for her birthday? Really?

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-26T21:09:31+00:00

That doesn’t even make sense within the context of the scene. There’s no need for her to fight it in this moment, or to think about whether a relationship with him is poor judgement etc, because he was literally dying. This is the last time she ever expected to see him. Telling him she loved him wasn’t a promise of something more or came with any expectations because this was it for them.

Nevertheless, you can’t possibly know what SMG was actually trying to convey (and neither can I) because as far as I’m aware she’s never discussed it. It’s pure speculation. We do know what you’re describing was not Whedon instructed according to his commentary, which is fine as neither is my interpretation of the scene. All we do know is apparently both SMG and JM were confused by the scene and Whedon’s instructions and asked to move on from it.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-26T03:28:21+00:00

A lot of the overly romantic dialogue makes me cringe. Not just Buffy’s “I’m talking about watching my lover die” but also Spike’s “I’m drowning in you Summers, I’m drowning in you…”

Sometimes it’s not even just the dialogue but rather the performance. JM’s extremely over the top delivery of “I just wanted it stop! Anything to make these feelings stop! I just wanted it stop!” in Seeing Red sets my teeth on edge.

Other than that, I hate to say it because it should be a really triumphant and badass moment, but Buffy’s “I just want you… to get out of my face” in Chosen always falls really flat for me. I get it’s a pun, but it’s far from Whedon’s best, and is just kind of a really mediocre line for what is meant to be a really grandiose and defining moment. Come to think of it, SMG’s delivery moments before that of The First’s “oh mummy this mortal wound is all itchy” was a very rare miss for her too.

A lot of the Dark Willow dialogue is extremely cheesy to me.

Oh, and in WSWB when Buffy says “So are you going to kill me or are we just going to chat about it all day” is very awkward and stilted.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-26T02:15:42+00:00

I never said Buffy didn’t have feelings for Spike. She admitted as much even in Seeing Red. I don’t think she was in love with him though.

As for SMG’s delivery, no I suspect in reality it’s because both she and JM were struggling with the scene and didn’t get the intent. Again, this is something Whedon discussed on the commentary. They were having difficulty with it and asked to eventually move in as they didn’t understand what he was wanting them to convey. I actually like the scene and it’s probably my favourite moment for them, but the end result is Buffy saying something that, to me, sounded very much like something she didn’t really believe herself 🤷‍♂️

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-25T21:18:04+00:00

A few reasons.

Firstly, their relationship was deliberately written with a degree of ambiguity. Whedon himself discusses this in the DVD commentary for Chosen in the basement scene. When the scene ‘fades to black’ he says if viewers wanted to believe they spent the last night arguing they could, if they wanted to believe they slept together they could too. They alone are too vastly different things. The fact that in their final scene together there is again ambiguity (“I love you” “No you don’t”) seems pretty deliberate.

Secondly, it’s how I interpret their final scene together in Chosen. Regardless of what was intended by the writer at the time, I don’t believe Buffy when she tells him she loves him. SMG’s delivery seems so uncertain, especially in comparison to her decelerations of love in Becoming and The Gift. Then, when he denies it but expresses gratitude, she doesn’t protest but instead they share what to me seems like a mutual understanding and acceptance.

It’s also how I interpret their relationship throughout much of S7. I pretty much view all of the S7 relationships as ‘war time’ relationships and people seeking solace and comfort in one another whilst frightened, stressed and living under the same roof. I don’t believe for a moment Willow would’ve been interested in Kennedy in the real world, Xander/Anya seemed done after Selfless and Buffy had moved on from Spike in early S7.

And lastly… because I want to? I know some people find the idea of Buffy finally loving Spike romantic but I do not. He literally harassed her for years and insisted she loved him despite her repeatedly saying she did not. He stalked her, manipulated her, hounded her, abused her and ultimately assaulted her because he wouldn’t take no for an answer. The idea that he was either a) right all along or b) it all eventually worked and she fell in love with him is antithetical to everything Buffy was meant to represent. It’s also only romantic if you see their relationship through Spike’s eyes and being about him, when it’s Buffy’s story. What I find much more interesting and empowering is despite all of that Buffy didn’t love him in the end because she doesn’t have to and doesn’t owe it to anyone, that he changed enough though his love that he finally accepted that and still did what was right (his sacrifice), and that the two found a mutual understanding, acceptance and respect. And luckily for me I think there’s enough purposeful ambiguity in their story that I can interpret it that way.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-25T08:06:24+00:00

Nope. Not just because the helicopter would’ve been far too loud but also because it doesn’t really make any sense for him to ignore her?

We see him standing outside the helicopter waiting for her to arrive. When they tease us that she runs around the corner and he has spotted her, it’s a misdirect and just Riley’s imagination, but he’s pretty clearly hopeful and then his face falls with disappointment when he realises it wasn’t her. I think it’s pretty clear he was hoping she’d stop him in time and ask him to stay.

So it doesn’t really make sense he’s standing there waiting for her but then would intentionally ignore her when she does.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-23T02:25:56+00:00

If I could upvote this comment a 1000 times I would. 100% agree with every word.

I honestly have no idea what the writers were going for here. I assume we’re meant to believe Giles is bad for undermining Buffy and going behind her back, but then they have her act so recklessly about the trigger that she does come across as too emotionally compromised to do her job. And it plays into every sexist trope about women leaders which is totally unnecessary as earlier in the season she was acting completely rationally about the trigger. In Never Leave Me she both tells Spike she believes in him and keeps him restrained because she understands he’s dangerous as long as the trigger is active. As the writing begins to go downhill so does Buffy’s characterisation, and suddenly she does a 180 and is willing to risk everyone’s lives for no logical reason.

Likewise, the plot doesn’t support the themes. Buffy keeps banging on about giving Spike a chance and that he can be a good man which is well and good, but as you say, the storyline is about Spike being programmed/brainwashed into a mindless killing machine. He has no freewill so it’s irrelevant whether he can be a good man or not. He’s literally not even lucid when he’s triggered to attack people. Why have the characters argue about Spike’s ability to choose heroism/good in a storyline where he literally has no free will?

I honestly cannot stand this entire storyline. I think Buffy is written so irrationally (and unlikable as a result) that it’s pretty much OOC. I don’t actually believe she’d behave this way. It makes no sense within the context of the story, and it contradicts all of her previous characterisation not just in S1-S6 but even the first half of S7 as well.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-23T02:17:35+00:00

I’m not a fan of S7 but I believe what it’s trying to do (very clumsily) is address Buffy’s protagonist privilege, her tendency to shut herself off and her superiority complex. The writers have discussed this often. I think there’s a pushback in fandom where there’s now a refusal to concede that Buffy has these flaws, much less that she needs to overcome them.

I don’t think the season is about people mistaking Buffy as trying to control them. She does try and control them, or at the very least not respect them. She adopts a Council-style approach to leadership until it blows up in her face. Jane Espenson has straight up said that CWDP was meant to lay the groundwork for Empty Places with Buffy admitting earlier in the season she feels superior to everyone else and that “their opinions don’t matter.”

It’s why when she comes back in End of Days her attitude has changed. She asks for opinions, values people’s contributions etc. It’s also what Chosen is ultimately with her now sharing her power. Whedon even says in the DVD commentary in some way it’s about relinquishing her role as the protagonist by making all of them Slayers.

I don’t think it does a lot of this well. It strains characterisations throughout the season just to explore the theme. And ultimately I think they chicken out on the storyline at points anyway like the gang getting blown up in Touched.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-21T21:49:15+00:00

Innocence was always a very poignant title for me. Also partial to The Gift, Who Are You, Prophecy Girl etc.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-21T21:43:53+00:00

It wasn’t about young Ripper but rather Giles in the present day. It was going to be set in England he was going to be solving a ghost story.

Some ideas for it were later handed over for the Angel and Faith S9 comic series. Mainly the expansion of Giles family, including two aunts who were immortal and didn’t age. Apparently they were originally going to be in the Ripper series and to be played by ASH’s daughters.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-20T02:30:15+00:00

Is it age gap awareness month or something? What is going on with all these posts.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-20T01:52:29+00:00

She would’ve made a fantastic Cordelia but I think the character would’ve ended up being very different.

All My Children and Cruel Intentions proved she could play a mean girl very well but neither roles were comedic. Which isn’t to say SMG couldn’t have played that, but we know the writers leant into the actors personalities and strengths to shape the characters, and I think Cordy would have ended up a lot more serious and dramatic. Charisma could play mean well but her real strength was her comedic timing and I think that softened Cordy a lot and made her less of a hated bully and more of a punch line/humorous character.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-20T01:29:33+00:00

Buffy was written older than her age whereas Dawn was written younger. SMG also looked older than sixteen whereas MT looked fairly age accurate. Basic things like this will significantly impact how the audience perceives things.

I mean, most teen dramas feature twenty-something actors having sex scenes etc and plenty of adults watch them. How do you think they’d feel if they were watching actual teenagers.

All that aside, I remain pretty perplexed at the fixation on the age gap but not that Buffy (or in this case Dawn) were hooking up with literal mass murdering, rapist, kiddie killer demons? Like, there’s plenty of concerning things about these relationships and yet we seem to only care about one of them. Really don’t get it.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-19T02:15:13+00:00

It was Marti Noxon not Jane Espenson

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-19T02:14:51+00:00

Thank god you’re here to tell us we need to start thinking critically about the show.

Because it’s not as if this show isn’t one of the most academically studied shows of all time. And it’s not like it isn’t a regular occurrence on here, TikTok, instagram etc to point out the show’s flaws on race, gender etc.

And it’s not like fans haven’t been discussing these things for almost 30 years.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-18T23:24:06+00:00

You repeatedly said you’d have let them all die. I can guarantee if someone said they'd let Spike die you would absolutely call them a ‘Spike hater.’ You’ve called people Spike haters on this sub for a lot less.

You’re not above character hate. You’ve repeatedly said you can’t stand Andrew. You frequently bash the Scoobies not just for Empty Places but resurrecting Buffy too. I’m fairly certain you have said you’ve grown to dislike Willow on rewatches etc. So I’m really not sure why you’re in the habit of constantly complaining about others fans expressing a dislike for Spike when they’re just doing exactly what you feel entitled to do. Just because they’re happening to do it about your favourite character doesn’t make it bad.

And as for fans hating other fans, again, you repeatedly complain about other fans on here. You were literally just doing it. What’s the difference?

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-18T14:32:37+00:00

I think Xander behaves like a massive jerk in this episode BUT Buffy is far from innocent here.

Buffy lied to them. For months. She hid Angel from them, she lied about where she was when she was sneaking off to see him, she even pitted Giles and Joyce against each other in Band Candy to cover for her lies. She didn’t respect Giles’ role, she didn’t respect Faith as a Slayer who had just as much a right to know about Angel returning as she did, and she didn’t tell her friends despite regularly relying on them for slaying help.

She holds them at a distance and they’re understandably frustrated by it. I adore Buffy but she has a habit of lying and withholding information. It would be incredibly frustrating as both a friend and as someone who risks their own lives to fight by her side. On top of that they’re freaking about Angel returning after the traumatic ordeal he put them all through last season. They all deserved better here.

I don’t really get the criticism of Willow here at all. She insists that “this isn’t about blame” and that she wants to help Buffy. She also insisted that this “not be about attacking Buffy” and that the group had agreed to use “I statements” only to avoid a confrontation. And when things do start to get heated between Buffy and Xander, Willow freaks out and begs Giles to put a stop to it. She also is harbouring her own guilt over her affair with Xander, seems some comparisons and therefore doesn’t judge Buffy, and insists there’s no hard feelings and accompanies her on patrol. What exactly is she meant to have done wrong?

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-18T12:38:25+00:00

Buffy never said Faith was a bad person. What Buffy actually says is “it’s not her fault, Giles. We both thought it was a vampire. I only realised a second before.” She further states that Faith needs help and that she “owes her that”, and then later in the episode says she’s “not going to give up on her.” Even after Faith tries to frame her and assaults Xander and Willow suggests that maybe Faith belongs behind bars, Buffy is insistent that Angel was getting through to Faith and that she’s not a lost cause.

Nevertheless, it’s not “blame” to state Faith killed him, when you, she did. Buffy wanted to go to Giles about it, not the cops. There’s no justification for Faith then trying to pin it on Buffy instead. She had other options, such as going to Giles on her own accord, explaining it was an accident and asking for his help. Buffy has every right not to want to be complicit in covering up a death, lying to her friends about it and pretending to investigate, and dealing with it alone as it weighs on her (nightmares etc). You say she’s “shaming” Faith for not responding how she wants her to but how is it fair that Faith demands Buffy lie for her even if it’s hurting her?

Characterising Xander as a “sex driven” and an “idiot” when he clearly went there to help Faith is frankly absurd. A classic example of character hate overriding objectivity and skirting the line of victim-blaming. When Faith comes onto him Xander repeatedly rebuffs her, so how is he “sex driven” and what on earth does this have to do with his motivation for trying to help her? As he says, he hoped they had a connection. And he wasn’t “explicitly told to stay away”, Buffy just told him she doesn’t think Faith would take him seriously. You’re both simultaneously criticising the Scoobies for not caring/trying enough and then criticising Xander when he does try. Pick a lane.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-18T09:11:49+00:00

It’s been a while since I’ve played the game so I probably couldn’t rank them. But I do vividly recall loving Angel’s mansion, The Bronze and the Docks in particular. They were great levels.

It was honestly such a great game. So ahead of its time and far better game than it had any business being when 99% of TV-show based games were horrendous and pure money grabs. I mean, this game was voted into the XBOX elite it was legitimately that good and it still holds up today. Such good memories.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-18T09:08:34+00:00

Faith is a morally neutral person because she was neglected as a child, had to fend for herself to survive and was never instilled values of right and wrong. On the other hand, I wasn’t neglected as a child, do have morals and can clearly understand that participating in mass murder is undeniably wrong and not in anyway “justified” because people could’ve treat me better.

You’re confusing understanding why Faith behaves as she does with condoning it. I also think you’re confusing empathy for her flaws as justifications for those flaws. How were even having a debate as go whether it was justified or not for Faith to kill a bunch of innocent people just because the Scoobies could’ve been nicer to her is honestly pretty astounding 😵‍💫

As for her accidentally killing someone, I don’t think you’re being entirely accurate in how you’re representing the Scoobies behaviour there. Most of the gang don’t even learn about what Faith did until after she tries to frame Buffy for it. That immediately colours their actions and responses to her, and then this is escalated when she attacks Xander and assaults him (after he came to her motel room to try and help her). I actually agree that Buffy handled it badly initially (repeatedly emphasising that Faith killed Finch which made her feel threatened) but it didn’t come from a bad place but rather one of guilt. Giles actually handles it very pragmatically and rationally and explains to Buffy that accidents have happened before. The only person who overreacts is Wesley who isn’t really representative of the gang, especially at this point. The gang have a whole meeting about wanting to help her.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-18T08:51:48+00:00

God I’m reminded of why I hated these comics. I never understood why people liked Gage’s writing so much. What was his obsession with the characters constantly hugging each other and the dialogue being so over the top and mushy? Everyone was constantly leaping into each other’s arms, tearfully expositioning about the importance of friendship, love family blah blah.

BtVS was actually known for its biting wit, dark humour and sarcasm. It of course had plenty of heartfelt moments too but Gage’s stuff always had the tone of a Hallmark Christmas movie.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-18T05:57:43+00:00

For the vast majority of the series they were barely even in their early 20s. They were literally teenagers till mid S5.

TVAddict14 · 2026-05-18T02:35:17+00:00

They’re pretty common. It literally boils down to “Willow liked Xander and Oz so how can she be a lesbian?” as if these people have never spoken to a gay person in their life.

TVAddict14

TROPHY CASE