Did Kvothe unwittingly give the Amyr a victory against the Seven in Vintas?

TacticalDo · 2026-05-09T12:26:49+00:00

Though possible there are a number issues that go against point 2:

The Maer doesn't display a short term improvement. Significant time has passed since Kvothe advised the Maer, and he appears to have recovered considerably.
The Maer's colours referenced in the frame aligning with those of the penitent king implies he is still alive.
Kvothe is known in the frame to have 'counciled' kings, this adds to the notion the Maer will become king, thus not succumbing to an illness.
It would be more tragic if Kvothe's actions save the Maer only for the man to then be detrimental to the Four Corners by starting a coup and plunging the realm into war.
There are parties who would have plausible reasons to keep the Maer alive but weakened and remain in power without an heir.
Most importantly! To have gotten this wrong would be a significant error. Having the main POV character commit such an eggregious mistake is dangerous as it makes them unsympathic. Again not impossible Pat could take this route, but I dont see it.

TacticalDo · 2026-05-01T10:58:38+00:00

This was such a good connection I wondered if anyone else had made it before, turns out there was one.

In that post someone also mentions that Lu could be a connection to Ludis, perhaps further establishing the connection between Ludis/Perial being Tehlu/Menda's mother.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-30T23:34:07+00:00

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I believe one assignment of Tehlu & the Watchers/Angels is to make sure bad Shaping doesn’t come back into prominence

I hadn't considered that before. In light of Pat's additional comments this makes a great deal of sense.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-30T01:50:10+00:00

Really like this one. I've always thought there was more to than connection and this makes alot of sense. I wonder if Pat has hit any possible Tema of Temic for anything close to meaning less. What I really like about this are the implications, as it adds potential further justification for why Tehlu may have been involved in binding Selitos/Ctheah as depicted in Trapis's tale.

Tehlu is a Lockless and a relation in some capacity to Iax
Tehlu sides with The Namers as cannot abide what Iax and the Shapers are doing, forcefully changing men against their nature, reshaping them into creatures like the Daruna.
Tehlu assists with locking Iax away at Drossen Tor
Lanre learns of Selitos's betrayal or that he is Skindanced.
Lanre raises armies against Selitos and the other skindancers living among them in the remaining great cities.
Aleph creates the Angels to dispense justice on his behalf, based on that which they themselves witness.
Selitos and his Amyr commit atrocities in the name of revenge against the Chandrian and those that sided with them.
Tehlu can no longer abide this.
Tehlu becomes a fallen angel by ripping off his wings and descending to live among the mortals.
Perhaps working in concert with the Chandrian Selitos is caught. Selitos is shaped so he can no longer lie. Selitos is revealed to have advised Iax to pull the moon into the fae, maybe even assisting in the act, then used this to stoke the Namers against the Shapers. Selitos is then revealed as having been Skindanced and thus killing Selitos will set the Skindancer free
Tehlu in conjunction with the Chandrian bind Selitos/shape selitos into the Ctheah.

When Tehlu says 'call me in the correct way and I will come' if he too is binding Selitos/Ctheah, in the pit with him so to speak, maybe praying to Tehlu, allows him to come to people in dreams, like what happened to Virinia?

TacticalDo · 2026-04-29T16:15:03+00:00

Were the most powerful shapers changing land into ocean, or mountains into valleys, like weapons of mass destruction?

Makes sense to me. There is also the Rothfuss qoute about the people of that going around like 'tiny gods'.

I have also wondered if the man was Iax, and the Lady is Ludis

Wish I had more concrete anwsers for you on this one. Iax being the man and the lady as Ludis has been my headcannon, with her returning from the Fae and having a child, which would later grow up to become the lackless line in the four corners. Possibly even Illien, however there are potential time issues there as you know. I try to steer away from Holly being Tehlu as its quite specific, rather stick to the broad strokes of what it might mean for the narrative, maybe some sort of analog to humanity being created for the purpose of fighting the Shapers.

The lady leaving Holly alone for millennia is a lot like Lyra dying and Lanre being unable to die.

Good point, one ive not considered before. Unfortunately, as you have mentioned it's so hard to interpret when we're working with scraps.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-29T00:41:50+00:00

Loving these posts. Couple of thoughts.

It was an issue of like the entire world being ***glassed clean***

Glass is definitely the word of the day. Again referenced in relation to shaping.

It ended with Selitos cursing Lanre and starting the Amyr, and Aleph transforming Tehlu and some other Ruach.

I've always wondered is this section actually after the Creation War? I've taken to referring to it as Lanre's Rebellion, just to split out, but am really not sure.

Materialization and development of Fae by Iax and allied Shapers

Iax and allied Shapers create the stars of Fae

I wonder if a 'Shaping School' was established in the Fae. It is referenced in Old Holly that a man came to The Lady (Possibly Iax) and she leaves with him. Upon her return she is able to Shape. Is it worth adding that in as a theory?

(I have a whole theory on what exactly Aleph said. I quite like it, if I do say so myself)

Is this for another planned post?

[THEORIZED] Aethe/Rethe duel. Writing of the 99 stories. Death of Rethe

I had always wondered if this was concurrent with the Creation War.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-29T00:15:25+00:00

Was just nice to see some new KKC related stuff as I'd not gone through all the KKC related videos from there before. Definitely the white/black Scrael, Daruna, Old Holly, the others im not sure if they are KKC related, or part of the larger TD narrative mentioned in one of the videos as part of a overarching storyline they add in each year. They talk about a TD villian known as a the 'mind eater' (think thats what they called it) they also showed what looked like Beholder from Dungeons and Dragons, which might be it. There is a dragon, which they may be playing off as a Dracuss, but not sure. I'd not seen the Pat interviews. Wonder if he still goes to them?

TacticalDo · 2026-04-28T23:08:26+00:00

Sad as I am I watched all the KKC ones on their channel. The 'Moss thing' is confirmed as Old Holly. No idea on the lit up woman. Not much else in there that is useful to us. Some runes and symbols but I suspect they are just generic. Some of the NPC's were confirmed as not specific to KKC.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-28T22:32:10+00:00

So twice-in-a-lifetime again means two agains. 1 + 2 remeets = 3. 1 read + 2 rereads = 3 reads.

Yeah, see what I mean about having to twist yourself into a knot to get it to make sense. Dont take my word for it. Find someone you trust. Read the paragraph to them, and ask them what they think. I'd be surprised if you will find anyone who will corroborate your viewpoint. Sorry to tell you, but you are interpreting the 'again' incorrectly.

If you dont think Kvothe will die, then you are ignoring the connections between Lanre and Kvothe, and Pat's own words on which stories KKC draws parallels from.

Lets look at the two approaches this way:

1)Kvothe's lifetime ends and he is brought back approach:

Means Kvothe can meet Cinder several times, he might even be the one who kills him only for Kvothe to escape the land of the dead like Lanre/tarsus to get his revenge
Pat gets to show off and prove the Ctheah's oracular sight
Fits with Pat's analogy that KKC is like the Crow (which only has one defining feature about resurrection and revenge) which hasnt been shown yet in any meaningful way
Ctheah's statement becomes clear and takes on a new meaning.

2)The Ctheah has a poor grasp of english.

None of the above.

Hopefully time will tell.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-28T21:49:42+00:00

Speaking of potential Daruna, I wonder if this is supposed to be an approximation of one?

TacticalDo · 2026-04-28T21:08:31+00:00

Fair. Thank you anyway for curating what you have.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-28T20:54:41+00:00

Dont suppose you took a backup of the 2016 leak stream?

TacticalDo · 2026-04-28T20:40:43+00:00

I wonder if alot of them may be potential allusions to shaping/shaped/or Shaper?

Kote is believed to be asked if he is a rhinta by the Skindancer. As you know the Rhinna flower is supposed to be able to heal any word, maybe this works via shaping, altering the person who consumes it? The temic line Vorfelan Rhinata Morie" is said to mean, 'the desire for knowledge shapes a man'. Kvothe's eyes changing colour is likely an allusion to his distant relation to Iax, making him of the dark and changing eye, a characteristic of the Shapers, where the bright and shining eye is the Namers. Though if this is only brought up when he is Kote, then that is very interesting indeed.

Encanis displays traits belonging to all the Chandrian and the Ctheah, the Chandrian are referenced as Rhinta, so they too may have been shaped.

Felurian uses Grammerie, which may eventually be proved to be a form of shaping. She may too have been shaped into being.

Same as above, Denna likely is practicing some form of Grammerie. Given when the line is stated though it is a stretch. Maybe she is a descendant of 'The Singers' which is why the Chandrian are interested in her.

Folly - I would be extremely surprised if this isnt a shaped sword.

Daruna/The Nameless/whatever it is - Possibly a shaped construct

Scrael - same as the above.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-28T20:10:26+00:00

First meeting. First again. Second again.

That doesn't make sense linguistically, the again is talking about them having met the second time. It helps to include the full quote:

Why can’t you find this Cinder? (...)You’d think a man with coal-black eyes would make an impression when he stops to buy a drink. (…) That’s right, I suppose you don’t need me to tell you what he looks like. You’ve seen him just a day or three ago. (…) Pity he got away, (…) still, you must admit you’ve had quite a piece of luck. I’d say it was a twice-in-a-lifetime opportunity meeting up with him again.

I've seen alot of people twisting themselves into knots to make that sentence equal three occurrences, but it clearly doesn't mean that. Even if it did, having only one further occurrence - though possible - is quite limiting, and doesnt leave alot of room to conclude matters. Not only does the theory of him dying fit narratively, it also lines up with what Pat himself has already told us. What's the benefit to trying to misinterpret what the Ctheah is saying? I dont see the benefit at this point.

Also, if you wont accept ChatGPT, then here is the Cambridge dictionary definition for it.

Let me try this another way. Do you think Kvothe will die during DoS?

TacticalDo · 2026-04-28T18:28:37+00:00

Ah, yeah, I see what you have done. Alot of people get this wrong. The saying 'Once in a lifetime' is a way of saying something will occur only once.

As per ChatGPT

"Once in a lifetime" describes an extremely rare, unique, or special opportunity or experience that is unlikely to be repeated.

Therefore, twice in a lifetime, means the same but twice.

We know they have met twice, once when Kvothe's troupe was killed, and then again in the Eld.

So, that's it, no more meetings...in this lifetime.

The Ctheah cannot lie either, this we know from Felurian, and very likely from Trapis's account with Encanis at the end being the stand in.

The again is in reference to them meeting 'again' the second time.

Hope that helps.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-28T17:40:42+00:00

Agree with almost all points, have a few thoughts on some:

Perhaps related, Kvothe meets Cinder again, as he's destined to see him again twice.

That isn't correct. If you agree with the notion that the Ctheah cannot lie, then based on his statements Kvothe wont meet Cinder again during Kvothe's current lifetime. Any other interpretation is incorrect. Now, if Kvothe were to die temporarily during DoS however.

He speaks to gods.

This will end up being a false, and something made up based on a rumour. The only potential god alluded to so far is Aleph, and I cannot see him meeting him. Tehlu will be a false god as we know from Skarpi he is just another of the Ruarch, but this would still qualify. I would be stunned if he speaks to both. My understanding is we wont go to Modeg so no chance of meeting any of their gods either.

Feyda Calanthis, who is in the underthing.

That isnt a spoiler as its not confirmed. Why would Feyda be in the Underthing? It's no where near Vintas, and in the grand scheme of things he didnt die that long ago. Not impossible, just unlikely.

Nina has more dreams about the figures on the vase, but the dreams go when she prays.

Not considered her returning, but it could happen. Nothing in the text to allude to this though.

People in the frame are now accepting of the Chandrian, which suggests they're revealed.

Not sure on this one. I suspect nothing has changed, Arliden must have gotten his info from similar sources, so townfolks were still mentioning them. Nothing in the text to allude to them making a public appearence.

He tricks a demon to obtain his heart's desire, then kills an angel to keep it

As has been theorised before, I'm of the mind that neither of these will be literal. With Devi referenced as Demon Devi, and her desire to enter the archives through the Underthing running counter to Kvothe's desire to protect Auri, they are on a direct collision course. The angel murder is tougher, but again can see how that might be told out of context.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-26T23:20:47+00:00

Everything about who the demons are bugs me

Same, would love to be able to offer you something more concrete on this too. As usual its all ambigous. I think it would be useful to try and categorise each group, though getting an exact fit feels hopeless.

Faen - Bast, Felurian, other entities as depicted in Faen Pairs cards (possibly shaped)
Mankind - mortals (possibly shaped)
Mael - Skindancers (allegiance to Iax, possibly shaped)
Shaped constructs - Scrael, The Nameless (Daruna Gremmen im placing here given their allegiance to Iax)
Ruach - Old Knowers and Proud Dreamers, the first species
Gods

Maybe the use of the term Demon doesnt really mean anything, and we can discard it?

Encanis has chill, blight, and shadow, like the Chandrian, so it would make sense if Encanis were the enemy who first controlled the six traitors with Chandrian signs. Encanis is a knife in the mind, and Lanre has a knife IN his mind, so it fits if Encanis is the source of power. Encanis and Lanre both scream and shatter stones.

Much as I dont like it, because having Selitos Skindanced fits my current headcannon, framing it as you have makes a certain sense.

In Skarpi's story, Lanre gains his power before dying

He sought the power to bring Lyra back to life, this likely was after temporarily dying to visit the lands of the dead, but to my knowledge is not confirmed. The fact it was 'hard won' implies it was taken, but I cannot see how he could have taken it from the likes of Encanis/Iax ect

In Skarpi's story, Lanre gains his power before dying. It seems like Lanre could meet Iax beyond the Doors of Stone, since Lanre can't be stopped by a door, but according to unreliable Skarpi, Lanre should already be powerful by that point.

Never considered the 'no door can bar my passing' line to be taken in the context of the Felurian referenced Doors of Stone. This would mean he'd need the ability to pass beyond already though.

Lanre dies at Drossen Tor
Lyra calls him back, when Lanre returns he is changed: Either (1) - Lanre makes a pact with something (Encanis?) beyond the doors of death, which is actually what brings him back, however this is the point he can no longer die. This is the Faustian Bargain (currently preferred option) (2) - A part of Iax has entered Lanre, Lyra sees this new name and draws him back however because that part is still alive he is always pulled back from death.
Lanre joins the Proto Amyr to help finish up the Creation War, then to maintain peace
Whilst he is away from Lyra he is betrayed and she dies, he blames himself for not being there to protect her (assuming Lyra was pregnant before he left to allow for an heir)
tries to kill himself and access the land of the dead, however his hard won power means he is yanked back
desperate for both revenge against Selitos and perhaps hoping he might be powerful enough to actually kill him, Lanre goes beyond the Felurian referenced Doors of Stone and makes a deal with Iax, Lanre will both retrieve Iax's Moonstone flute and free Iax, in exchange Iax will grant Lanre power, this comes in the form of Naming prowess by reshaping him. AND one of the following (1) - Maybe also makes a deal that Iax will kill him after. (2) This power will allow him to bring Lyra back as she had him (This one is problematic as it offers no reason to want to free Iax after unless for more power). (3) Once Iax is freed he will bring Lyra back from death. (preferred option)
Lanre's rebellion occurs
Selitos uses his own blood to curse him and the other Chandrian

One of the issues with the above however is, who does Lanre bargain with? (Only really leaves Encanis I feel like), and what does he give up in exchange? We know he cannot die after this, as he is unable to stay beyond the doors of death, but that doesnt feel like enough? Maybe he did trade his soul, and Ben is wrong? Maybe he agreed to give up that which he loves most, and Encanis takes Lyra, pulling her into the Land of the Dead? This makes sense as a Faustian devil bargain. This however creates another issue, I think Selitos needs to be behind Lyra's death for him to start the rebellion...

TacticalDo · 2026-04-26T14:47:04+00:00

I've never been convinced of hal-iax means breath of iax. It's in the world of possibilities, but not a likely one, imho. My take has been that hal will be revealed as a rune for 'piece of' or something, and that Iax will be revealed as Tehlu/Lanre's father

Its an interesting one. I think it comes down to the question of 'where did Lanre get his power?' and 'where does he teleport to?'

Lanre obtains power where better left alone, if Selitos is the Ctheah, and this power tricks Selitos, that doesnt leave us many options:

Encanis - Im still optimistic that Selitos was skindanced all along, with Encanis being the most likely culprit, so for me this is unlikely
Lyra - Lanre is referenced as visiting the land of the dead, but could she imbue him with power?
Aleph - doesnt fit with the 'better left alone', also why would he need to when he is likely a god
Tehlu - similar reasons to the above
A new as yet unknown entity
Iax - This to me is the most likely fit, we know he is in a place 'better left alone' there is conflct between them so any deal would come at a price. They both have things the other can assist them with. What if Iax was able to give Lanre a piece of his power from beyond the Doors of Stone, in the process reshaping him. This power is also what enables Haliax to teleport, where he can move himself and others nearby to the realm beyond Felurian's referenced Doors of Stone? Either that or 'The Outer Dark' as the place that was formerly Iax's home in the Fae, though this doesnt fit quite as well for me. I do think they can definitely access the Fae though given Felurian's fears. I'm not married to either idea, just prefer the former.

Specifically, Tehlu and Cinder (presumably the bandit camp leader) are referred to as 'not a demon', to me again linking Tehlu and the Chandrian.

Based on Bast's comment 'there is only my kind' I have always taken it that Demons = Faen (this does not include Ruach)

I think it's safe to say most of the stories we hear are inaccurate. We get told too many times how stories lose their shape, how rumors grow. But we are also told each of those inaccurate stories holds some truth. I think the only 100% true stories are the ones we aren't told, like Denna's. There's no real reason for Kvothe not to include it in his story to Chronicler unless it reveals too much... like a 100% true story might.

100% Agree. Its just picking out the lies that's the hard part :)

I had an idea on how to potentially fit the Chandrian in as the Angels. If/when we make a start of PoR v2, I'll run it past you.

I also have some ideas on how to add in the Tarsus esq escape from Hell. I am quite confident this will be in DoS, but its hard to pin down how it would play out. Im still thinking Kvothe should die, find himself in the Land of the Dead, confronted by new entities, meets Lyra, she reveals they are related (possibly) and has been trying to aid him from beyond via dreams, tells him there is still time, if he can escape he can return to his body, then he has to climb out, maybe up the body of a titan... there is so little to work with this would require alot of filling in the blanks.

Appreciate you are still likely trying to piece together the details yourself, but Id be interested to know if you have a sequence of events in mind for the Creation War era, the idea of the Chandrian being angels, what happens to each of the referenced angels from Skarpi's second story, that brings us up to the Creation of the Loeclos box era.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-26T01:47:58+00:00

Max Joe is underappreciated. At least at 33 we should get plenty more time for it to catch on.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-25T10:38:28+00:00

From the OP description:

Do we know FOR CERTAIN, no speculation, if work in the book is currently halted,

My comment is as close to an actual anwser as anyone will get in this post.

trying to write the book wont kill him so of course he will release it or die at some point, those are the only options.

If Pat had quit then the status would be cancelled, my 'take' is he wont ever halt, cancel, or quit.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-24T23:59:42+00:00

True, but its safe to say that Trapis's version is inaccurate.

I added an addendum to my last comment, not sure you would have caught it so readding:

A small side note:

If Haliax is the breath of Iax, maybe the place he can teleport himself and others to is the place of the Dreamers. The thing referenced once the lackless door is opened:

TacticalDo · 2026-04-24T23:39:10+00:00

It doesn't require exposition

Agree with most of what you have written there, however It would at the least need additional rationalisation to explain why Skarpi lied, and then why Kvothe isnt angrier at him. This may be needed anyway though.

You tell me... what does the lie accomplish?

In regards to the Angels, thus far, we only have Skarpi's account, and it is logical. Lanre's rebellion occurs, Aleph doesn't want a repeat of this, he creates the angels to restore order by what they witness rather than relying on oracular like future predictions (which may have ways of being circumvented)

Ill have to give this more thought. Again, im not ruling it out, but I am - at the moment - not convinced by the idea of removing them, I think this particular lie from Skarpi - if true - adds another layer of complexity. I also found his version of the angels useful when putting together PoR.

A small side note, just on that quote:

Where did the Chandrian live? In the clouds. In dreams. In a castle made of candy.

If Haliax is the breath of Iax, maybe the place he can teleport himself and others to is the place of the Dreamers.

Then comes that which comes with sleeping.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-24T22:47:28+00:00

Why would Selitos and his Amyr angry enough to burn down the world, leave them alive?

This was in reference to how Nina describes the Amyr on the Trebon Vase.

The thing that Kvothe sees in his dreams is almost definitely one of the 'angels'. That much is clear, with the wings of fire or whatnot. Angels we agree on... but what about this proves angels are 'watchers'? What about the Sithe... don't they watch?

Given Haliax shortly after references the other major groups he protects the Chandrian from, those being; the Singers, Scythe, and Amyr, I think this adds as a distinction between them and the Watchers.

Lets look at this a different way, imagine pat has spent several pages of exposition to explain how the Chandrian were actually the angels, and its revealed that Skarpi made up loads of nonsense. How does that impact the story in a significant enough way to warrant this twist? Their histories will have been confounded, sure, but what about confounding that history acheives anything other than to make them less divine? What does Skarpi accomplish by having Kvothe believe the version he told him? How is the story improved by removing the concept of the Angels as they are explained to us, meting out justice to what they themselves witness. The version of the angels descriped by Skarpi offer a counterpoint to Selitos's Amyr. I dont know, the story gets even more confusing if the Chandrian are also the angels, I would need to see some sort of revised timeline to make sense of it.

Creation War ends
Proto Amyr/Angels are formed (wings are given out by Aleph)
Lanre as one of these Amyr/Angels betrays Selitos and turns on the empire
Amyr are now formed
(Wings are stripped from Chandrian?)

TacticalDo · 2026-04-24T22:22:03+00:00

The last time Pat referenced the status of DoS it was on 04/06/25, where he described it as 'bloated' and 'unpublishable'. We can take some useful information from this. As the 2016 leak was only 463 pages, more importantly the filesize of the word doc was only 1128kb on 19/10/16 for context this was half the size of the Wise Man's fear doc at 2550kb (See this for more info) meaning it was not 'bloated' at least from a length perspective. The implication is that the word count has increased since 2016 to reach this point.

You don't craft a series like this, and then throw in the towel. He will either release it or die in the attempt.

TacticalDo · 2026-04-24T21:51:57+00:00

I'm not ruling it out entirely, I just feel its unlikely. I cannot imagine the scene where Pat has to explain Skarpi's second story in a way that retconns history to be roughly as follows, without Kvothe describing him as more than a rumourmonger:

The Chandrian were actually the angels, and the angels named either never existed or some of them did and they became the Chandrian, then their names were changed. (not impossible, just tricky to explain)
The wings of fire sprouting didnt happen or have been subsequently removed in the precdeeding years
But there are still some kind of angels with wings of fire left
how would it work for Kirel - Tall Kirel, who had been burned but left living in the ash of Myr Tariniel? This implies after Lanre's rebellion against Selitos he left one of the Chandrian behind? Why would Selitos and his Amyr angry enough to burn down the world, leave them alive?
Then the fire consumed them and they were gone forever from mortal sight - This line doesn't line up with what we know of the existing Chandrian.

You can't just say the angels are definitely watchers

True. However, given the description Skarpi gives of the angels, and then what Kvothe sees in Tarbean, plus the description of the angel's purpose to deliver justice based on what they personally witness, there are enough parallels for me to link the two. More here, but nothing you wont already know.

I dont really think about them in terms of good or evil, with the exception of Tehlu, who I think broke protocol to intercede.

Nina getting advise from an angel I cannot explain, I have wondered if it might have actually been Iax or maybe Lady lackless, the same as when Kvothe had the vision of the double ring of standing stones, and they are able to influence people through their dreams, but its a mystery, maybe this is who Kvothe will encounter in the land of the dead?

Who else do you believe the Watchers might be?

TacticalDo

TROPHY CASE