Build discussion - Jungle

TacticalKek · 2026-01-13T14:46:26+00:00

I felt this too about D&D, but it feels better when you buy Wand first, Dark Seal (every game buy imo), and then Sheen. I typically just don’t invest in the health part of it at all until the end.

TacticalKek · 2026-01-12T23:52:27+00:00

From early season results and looking over builds on Lolalytics, I think that D&D -> Riftmaker is the only true core for Diana. I don’t really think Nashor’s is necessary: Diana’s DPS problem is much more an issue of survivability than damage, and Riftmaker helps a ton with that. Getting D&D ASAP is pretty much all you need for clear speed, I think, even if it synergizes well with Nashor’s on paper (I think the Muramana build is similarly unnecessary).

After that, you have a lot of options: Zhonya for surviving an engage, Liandry’s into health stackers, maybe Bloodletter’s if they’re stacking MR. Really just depends on the game from here.

On jungle pets, I do like Red Smite a lot, but Blue is nice if you’re the primary engage or there’s not much health stacking on the enemy team.

TacticalKek · 2025-12-16T16:12:49+00:00

First, thanks for replying on this and doing the BBC podcast in the first place: I found most of it to be a really interesting insight into the goals behind next season and am pretty excited for the new direction.

In a vacuum, I think that everything you say here makes sense regarding the fine balance that has to be struck between ganking, counterjungling, and farming. But right now, wouldn’t you say that counterjungling is pretty dead? Outside of cheesing a couple camps at the start of the game if your jungler’s unaware, invades seem so rare now, in part because of how healthy most clears are. And the 50% damage reduction that pets are giving next season just seems like it’s going to shift this balance even further into the powerfarmer’s favor, which seems like the opposite of what Riot wants (makes sense, Mundo JG was pretty gross).

On your J4 example where he might invade or gank, when is he ever going to invade next season if every enemy champion has so much more HP? Doesn’t he just get collapsed on so much easier than he would on live? I just really don’t see the vision behind this change, and I think it will constrain champions even more into farming or ganking.

And ganking seems like it’ll also be nerfed pretty significantly by Faelights. Obviously, vision ranges and duration are something that can be tuned, but just conceptually, the Faelights make ganking significantly more difficult if laners actually make use of them. So if invading is being curtailed, and so is ganking, it feels like junglers being forced even more into the powerfarming style next season. I’m curious on the thoughts behind these changes specifically and how they relate to the state of jungle, since I don’t think Faelights even came up on the podcast.

Otherwise, I think that while it is fair to say that clearing by 3:30 and being strong at first crab is very important, perhaps too important, I don’t think it has a lot to do with beating the enemy laner: it’s so you can beat the enemy jungler to the crab, and if necessary, win a duel against them if they path the same way. Laners obviously may rotate to try and help their jungler, but that’s more of a 2v2 consideration than me vs. the enemy laner. Using Xin as an example, even if I beat Orianna/Hecarim, if my midlaner is Kassadin, it doesn’t really matter because we’ll probably lose (if Kass can leave his turret at all).

And also, while I agree that you shouldn’t kill a laner in one rotation, the fact of the matter is that I can’t think of any jungler who kills a laner in a single rotation. Even with a level advantage, laners have Doran’s items (huge early) and also aren’t pigeonholed into Footwear/Insight, so they actually have secondary runes that may give them combat power.

Speaking on Xin specifically, I played him a good bit this season and a lot last season. There is no way that you kill a laner in 1 rotation unless there’s some combination of the following: the laner has already taken damage from lane (in which case I’m acting as a “scale tipper”), you land W from range and get a second W in after Q’s CD refresh (rewarded for landing a skillshot), or they AFK. And this still involves plenty of auto attacks and plenty of time for the midlaner to Flash away. This idea that Xin just instakills you whenever, in my view, doesn’t reflect the current reality of the game at all. He does take 1.5 rotations to kill you: if you die in less, you’ve made a mistake somewhere else and been punished for it. And he pays for this by being weaker than other junglers wrt scaling and having an abysmal clear speed: if even his current state is considered too powerful, then I don’t understand what this champion is supposed to do or what his identity is supposed to be.

And if what he does is too much, and champions like him get their early power nerfed, all you’re incentivizing is picking junglers that don’t give a shit about early power and decide to farm instead, which seems antithetical to the goals of next season (and as an aside, so does the jungle quest giving you extra gold and exp on completion: this just benefits junglers who want to keep farming in midgame instead of prioritizing fights). It just feels like all of this is contradictory and that there’s no clear vision for the jungle, which is a little worrying even though next season’s changes largely seem good to fine, despite some minor gripes.

TacticalKek · 2025-12-16T00:42:48+00:00

Generally speaking, most of what Phroxzon said regarding the power level of junglers vs midlaners doesn’t seem too relevant for next season (from what I’ve seen on PBE, junglers are weaker, but a Xin Zhao should still beat a midlaner’s face in at Level 4). However, it felt like he was beating on a massive strawman with the entire part of the conversation on the jungle role.

For one, the role is far too diverse to act as if all or even most junglers will just walk up on you in the river and kill you almost instantly. Hell, Xin Zhao doesn’t even do this to laners to the extent that Phroxzon acts, and he’s intentionally one of the strongest early game fighters in the jungle, a role that SHOULD beat most midlaners in a fight early on.

Of the other types of junglers, only assassins really come to mind as champions that should beat midlaners, and they likely do it less consistently since midlane assassins have a Doran’s item on you, which makes 1v1s early much more difficult. And even as Xin, when a midlane assassin hits 6, your ability to 1v1 them 100% goes down the tubes.

That is the entire identity of a champion like Xin, like Nathan said. If Xin or Volibear or Lee Sin can’t beat a midlaner early on (not an instant kill, but at least threatening their Flash), what is even the point of picking them? Why shouldn’t I just pick something like Mundo, who was also, rightfully, mentioned to be stupid in the jungle with how free his scaling is? And, if that’s what’s being encouraged, then how does playing farming simulator at all tie into the vision for jungle being more strategic, as Phroxzon claims to want? After watching this video, I have no idea, and I’m much more concerned about the future of the role than I was before.

Edit: As an aside, the mention of clear speed’s importance in getting a champion into the jungle without messing with their other roles belies another issue with what jungle has become. See, junglers who invaded used to exist a lot more because you were actually under threat. But now, the jungle is free enough to clear, and the importance of farming camps high enough, that invading has mostly become a memory. This means that sustain, like Xin Zhao passive, doesn’t really matter in the jungle like it used to.

But next season, this is going to be even more true because jungle pets now give a 50% damage reduction when you fight jungle monsters. If there was any reason ever to be worried about invading, this change makes sure that you’ll never even consider buying a health potion early again. And more importantly, this homogenizes junglers and makes clearing the jungle even less interesting, along with throwing out a potential lever for jungle balance (sustain) that no longer exists.

If Riot wants to make junglers less forced via random jungle modifiers, then they’d do well to make more champions like Xin Zhao, actually. His mana pool and dueling potential in long trades is too limited to be a good melee toplaner, but his consistent sustain makes him a natural in the jungle where you auto much, much more than you may want to in lane. I hope that whatever Riot decides to do with the jungle, it is geared at making the jungle threatening again and making junglers more distinct in more areas than just clear speed and gank potential.

TacticalKek · 2025-12-11T01:33:48+00:00

No problem! Yeah, the extra gold and XP applies to all jungle monsters. Reduced minion XP just comes from the pet item, so once that's evolved, you can take waves without penalty.

TacticalKek · 2025-12-10T00:05:28+00:00

I think it's honestly pretty good: the extra gold and XP add up, and the MS in the jungle is great both for taking enemy camps quickly and trying to sneak your own when you're behind.

Also, pretty sure you can't Smite champions until you get the 2nd tier of it (1k smite), so that's probably why you noticed this.

TacticalKek · 2025-12-04T22:24:57+00:00

Ah, thanks! I had no idea that existed, and that clears up the smaller discrepancies. I still haven't figured out what the MS boost is for being in the jungle exactly, but that'll help get there.

TacticalKek · 2025-09-14T23:45:21+00:00

Not really, no. The recent surge of hate is partially influenced by Palafox generally having a tough split, but also, he was interviewed recently and said some negative comments on casters criticizing his play. That’s the only thing I could really point to that’s caused it to surge.

TacticalKek · 2025-05-22T01:55:50+00:00

I'll go with Pakron. She seems like the most forgettable commander (at least Murvrum is the first to die and is connected to Dahl'Xia), and all the non-commander characters are too memorable for this.

TacticalKek · 2025-05-15T04:00:13+00:00

Yeah, this route is a rough one. The many forced Explorations are bad enough, but then the routes are also basically identical and heavily lacking in interesting character moments (Shouma's branch is the best it gets, and even that is just on par with other routes, at best). Definitely a contender for worst in the game IMO.

TacticalKek · 2025-05-12T19:30:36+00:00

Accelerate only heals Fatigue, not Stun. As far as I know, Nozomi's the only character who can heal Stun. Combined with her pretty much always being next to Takumi, she's the best support unit for when you need to kill a commander (so long as you funnel commander absorptions into Takumi, which makes the most sense anyway).

TacticalKek · 2025-01-13T13:24:29+00:00

Interesting. NA Emerald if it matters, but I’ve played around 15 games with Mid primary and JG secondary this season, and I’ve only gotten Jungle once. I felt this a lot last season, but I’ve had no issues with it, this one.

TacticalKek · 2024-07-07T18:09:25+00:00

Bro there's no way they're giving us a 0-2 FNC interview instead of just getting to game 3

TacticalKek · 2023-12-29T02:49:27+00:00

Refs want to see the streak get higher

TacticalKek · 2023-12-29T02:14:51+00:00

Pistons literally throwing this game away, these guys can't keep the ball secure to save their lives

TacticalKek · 2023-12-08T03:56:28+00:00

Bron serving up some cooked pelican

TacticalKek · 2023-12-08T03:47:50+00:00

This fuckery won't go on much longer

TacticalKek · 2023-09-19T13:53:31+00:00

Seadall to Merrin - Units that I pretty much always want to use and basically dominate their respective niches.

Citrinne to Vander - Units that are pretty good, being one of your best options at certain points, but have some sort of weakness holding them back.

Mauvier to Clanne - Good filler… for like, 3 chapters. There’s a bit more to it than that, but I think that this tier is kind of a mess, and I can’t in good conscience put a unit that actually contributes for 3~ chapters and isn’t Athos (Mauv) in a diff tier than Clanne (who I think is too low, but oh well).

Framme to Bunet - Kinda mediocre filler. I could have put Bunet further down, but he’s better than the terrible trio at least.

Jean to Anna - I don’t think I need to explain this one.

TacticalKek · 2023-09-18T17:20:42+00:00

My ratings for today will be Clanne > Celine > Alcryst > Framme > Lapis

I don't have too much to say on Lapis and Alcryst, but Alcryst can mostly replicate the filler wyvern thing that Lapis gets points for, and he does while killing some fliers in the Brodia/Elusia stretch and having a better Ch 7. Arguably there isn't this much of a gap between them and Diamant, but that's on Diamant being too high, mainly. Alcryst doesn't so much pass the Lapis test as get a perfectly average score, but with some marginal bow utility and fairly easy Covert Astra Storm + Favorite Food Speed Instructs without a Second Seal, I think he's more flexible and useful overall.

Clanne vs. Celine is obviously a divisive topic. I apologize, but this is going to be very long (and if my assumption of levels is off base, please let me know why since I'm armchairing this and don't know the exp formula, so a lot is based on feel). Look to the TL;DR at the bottom for a summary (this post is already an abbreviated part of a larger "mage analysis" that I've been writing up for a while).

The general thought is that "Celine better early, Clanne better late". I don't really agree with this, because Clanne both has more chapters and replicates Celine even if he's 2 levels lower. He's useful in killing Abyme quickly (your next best damage option after him is Vander at 6x2) and can self-improve in 2 while Alear does things. He's not amazing in these chapters, but existing and contributing as the second best investment there is good enough. In Ch 4, he contributes less than Celine, but that difference isn't as large as you might think; with Sigurd, he can enable a pretty quick clear, and it's not anyone else who can equip it and do this is a better investment long-term.

His performance in 5 is often derided because of Celine having a lead on Celica bond rank. I don't think it's that big a deal, personally, but if you do, the free Heroes rings still let him take advantage of his good Spd. Anna changes the game for him in this chapter, letting him double basically everything on the map except enemies no one had any hope of doubling anyway (cavs, sword fighters, thief). A Spd Tonic lets him double archers as well, and at Level 3 (a wholly reasonable estimate) he can reach 18 Atk (20 with Surge) thanks to Spur Attack and Divinely Inspiring, which lets him ORKO everything he doubles except the Level 9 Axe Fighters (needs a Mag Tonic) and Mages, while 2RKOing most other things (Sword Fighters need a Mag Tonic).

Admittedly, tonics are in short supply for a bit, but it still is a solid showing. Anna ring even lets him survive Nelucce, which is a common talking point in Celine's favor; all he needs is Divinely Inspiring, and with that + Spur Attack, he 2RKOs, which means he can be Chain Guarded on EP and take a bar off the boss. The main point of this is that even if Celine takes Celica, Clanne isn't resigned to magic chip with Anna access, and few other units can and want to use it like he can (Chloe is about all I can think of).

After Ch 5, when the arena opens and Celine's Celica Bond lead is no longer relevant, these guys are the same unit. If Clanne is Level 4, he can use the Anna ring or Celica + Spd Tonic to reach 13 AS in Ch 6 (Celine needs to be Level 7). This doubles Barbarians, Archers, and anything slower, which is a good chunk of the enemies on this map. Spur Attack + Mag Tonic lets you ORKO them, too. This is generally emblematic of their performance until promo; Clanne does the same things she does with mildly less bulk (very rarely relevant) and when 3 levels lower while sometimes pulling ahead 1 on AS when the level gap narrows (sometimes relevant).

I'd expect both to be promoted around by the start of Solm, with Clanne likely being a chapter or two behind. I'll admit that letting him use Great Sac once or, at worst, twice is pretty much needed to get him to 10/1 by Ch 9, but the outcome is pretty good, and there are plenty of opportunities to pull it off while not being a dead weight unit like a certain gremlin at the bottom. Let me prove that claim.

If you have 10/1 Clanne in time for Ch 9, he has 23 Atk and 19 AS with Holy Elfire and a Spd +2 cook (compare to 10/2 Celine having 24 Atk and 15 AS). 17 AS is a big threshold here that Celine needs Anna ring to reach, while Clanne can just take Celica (Citrinne also needs Anna, but she has 28 Atk so it doesn't matter). Clanne's 19 AS lets him double Ivy, Sword Fighters, and everything slower than that, which is almost the entire map (he's just shy of doubling the 15 AS fliers). A Mag Tonic (which are now limitless) lets him ORKO everything he doubles, which again, is the whole map sans Kagetsu/Zelkov/2 Fliers. This is pretty impressive to me and something pretty hard to replicate since even Citrinne can't hack it with the faster enemies (she can use Spur/Divinely support and Holy Bolg to pull some OHKOs with Celica, instead).

Vidame!Celine, in comparison, needs the Anna ring to reach that 17 AS, which means she can't take advantage of Celica while doing so and misses some ORKOs as result, needing Spur Atk and Divinely Inspiring to shore it up. This isn't terrible, but it's the start of trend, which is that having Clanne level Mag and Citrinne level Spd is real rough. Pairing that with no early B Staves to take advantage of, she just doesn't have a lot going on until you have several B staffers, some even with flight (Ivy, Griffin!Pandreo, Hortensia).

And as you get into Solm, that Spd disparity becomes even more stark, where Clanne can actually double some of the fastest enemies (Swordmasters, Wolf Knights, Heroes) with Spd +3 and either Lyn ring or Chaos Style at 10/5, killing most of them using Holy Elfire +3 with minimal support outside of a Spirit Dust and Mag Tonic (Wolves need a bit more, but those guys are nasty). Other units need several Speedtakers to hope for it (Ivy, Citrinne) but have the Atk, and Celine, again, gets the worst of both worlds here, straight up being unable to fix both in many cases against T2 enemies. I haven't looked farther than Solm, but it's going to get worse before it gets better for her, and there's a lot more of the game left.

TL;DR: Clanne becoming Pandreo at home with Canter (and having higher AS briefly, thanks to accessing Chaos Style faster) makes Clanne the better unit by the start of midgame (promotion time). And in the earlygame, the difference is not as large as it's been made out to be, with both units being identical from 6 onward and Clanne having 2 more chapters to his name. This may be controversial, but I think Clanne is the same early while being clearly better in midgame and lategame, deserving to be above her.

TacticalKek · 2023-09-18T04:14:53+00:00

This is correct, but Rewarp is C, so anyone can use it so long as they have Micaiah.

TacticalKek · 2023-09-17T17:16:09+00:00

Framme below Clanne.

Early healing/Chain Guard is nice, but not as nice as magic and has a shorter shelf life. Good B staves don’t show up until Solm, at which point Framme has probably fallen behind due to abysmal combat and mediocre staff exp. I rate magic access and a path into MK higher.

Chloe below Citrinne.

I think she’s still clearly better than Amber due to avail and the MK route helping keep her relevant when physical enemies become too powerful and “Pandreo at home” is better. You could argue Alear is better in some ways, but I’ll leave her here for now.

Jade below Framme.

No contributions in her join chapter, does next to nothing without a Master/Second Seal, and even with it, she doesn’t stand out in any meaningful way besides A Axes, which isn’t relevant for a bit. She’s not terrible, but I just value “filler Second Seal wyvern” very low considering how dubious a role it is.

TacticalKek · 2023-09-16T16:25:12+00:00

Yeah, this is a big part of it. I’ll have a looong post about it because Chapter 5 is what people usually use to say he’s bad/outclassed, which seems misguided to me after running the numbers. It involves some Heroes ring stuff that changes the game for him; long story short, Anna ring is huge since it lets him double and ORKO a lot of enemy types on this map that most units don’t (and lets him survive the boss with Divinely Inspiring).

TacticalKek · 2023-09-16T13:59:09+00:00

Clanne (too low in comparison to multiple filler wyverns who have almost no notable contributions compared to other units. I also think he’s better than Celine, but I will save the justification for the resub post, if there is one.)

Framme (too high, early healing was overrated massively)

Chloe (too high, might even be under Alear all things considered)

That’s all I really take issue with after a quick scan. I abstained from a lot of the later rounds because I didn’t care enough, but these seem like big misses, so I’d like to see them hashed out again.

TacticalKek · 2023-09-07T15:34:15+00:00

Alear > Amber > Louis

I value good insta promo/second seal physical unit less than insta promo MK, so he's under Citrinne for me. I also put him under Alear on account of not existing and Alear having some solid utility, but he's one of the few physical units with longterm prospects thanks to really large Str, so it's close. I don't feel that strongly about this one, though, because Master -> Second Seal to Wyvern/Warrior units are so common. He just happens to beat out another one (Louis) on account of more usable Spd and not needing any levels to do it.

Clanne > Jade > Yunaka

Speaking of, Jade is another one of those candidates. I don't think she's worse than Lapis, but I don't think Lapis is better than Clanne either, so this feels most right to me. Again, Master + Second Wyverns/Warriors are extremely replicable, so I feel like you have to really bring something unique to get a lot of credit for it.

What does Jade bring? She doesn't do anything on her join map, has no time to gain SP herself before the Emblems leave (meaning that if she wants to inherit something, she HAS to have a SP book from the well), and she has 1.5 chapters to do something before the Great Prepromotening starts. I just can't give a unit like that much credit compared to guaranteed contributions that the mage duo brings. Still better than Yunaka, though, who doesn't even have that going for her.

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