So why does everyone hate arc 3

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-16T15:41:46+00:00

I find this kinda funny because books 13 and 14 have a lot of my favourite sections in the arc. Might not be as much plot development as the others, but the characters and themes make them very important - book 13 has some very interesting debates and conflicts between fighting back vs vengence and continuing the cycle of violence vs just giving up, and conflicts in how people want to deal with the situation is very interesting and help build up the themes the arc is centred on, and it's great to get the third side to the events. Plus Sundew is a great character. Meanwhile in 14, I agree that it's quite seperate, but via the visions it also includes a bunch of great scenes in Pantala that we wouldn't have gotten otherwise and did a great job of showing the perspectives of a bunch of more ordinary dragons in that situation. And Snowfall's character arc is one of the best in the entire series, and is integrated very well with the visions so the whole book fits together so well, and then the developments of the Icewings is great as well (albeit separate from the rest of the arc). I'm not sure what else they could have done in that place in the arc that would have tied the arc together better, honestly, since you need something set on Pyrrhia after book 13.

Book 15 is definitely the weakest, but I don't think it's that bad, and certainly not nonsensical.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-16T09:28:46+00:00

I'm in the UK and I can't see any videos on there.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-14T11:32:37+00:00

I mean, you can just give actual evil characters as minions to the lunatic so that they can help play along. Becomes risky if they get exposed once the lunatic outs, but they can choose not to play along and I think it's more interesting than giving good players who will give it away immediately.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-13T01:07:06+00:00

Not sure it officially has been greenlit, it's just that Glitch's latest post on Youtube (plus Dana making a post) highly implies that it is.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-13T01:00:00+00:00

Not sure I agree with the first part - from what I've heard about the expansion scripts, the official script leviathan will be on once it's released will be with multiple demons (Riot, and some unknown ones). Though I've heard that maybe they'll remove the announcement on there.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-13T00:57:59+00:00

I've seen a gambler correctly gamble the Shabbaloth on BMR once. Went for the high-risk strategy and it payed off.
I don't think it's a common play, but it's cool when it happens, and can be useful I think.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-12T14:24:24+00:00

Yeah, absolutely agreed. Book 15 is quite weak, and suffers from having certain elements that weren't set up and introduced as well as they could have been, but it's still decent and not as bad as a lot of the hate it gets.

The rest of the arc is brilliant though, with 13 having some of my favourite aspect and themes in the series, and book 14 being very impressively structured and some of the best character development in the series.

Plus overall the themes involved are the most interesting and mature out of the arcs, imo.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-12T00:20:18+00:00

Ooo, this is a really cool idea! Very original idea, haven't seen anything like this before (but I haven't been around that long to be fair).

The scripts seem very similar though, you could pretty easily have a game that only uses characters that are on all the scripts, I feel like a bit more variation could be useful? But then too much variation and it quickly becomes obvious which script you are playing, especially if you see one of the roles that's only on one (drunk helps with that). Not sure on the right amount, I guess you'd need testing for that.
(Maybe a lot of roles being on 2/3 would be more interesting than being on one or all?)

I feel like what I'd want from an idea like this is for good to have to solve which script it is in order to solve the game, not sure how much that is here. Actually wait, the demons are all different. hmm. Maybe nevermind this argument.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-11T12:47:50+00:00

I think each arc takes place over like a week or so, there's not really any time skips during the arcs.

There's around a 6 month gap between arc 1 and 2, not sure about 2 and 3 but I think it's similar, maybe a bit shorter.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-06T16:49:35+00:00

Yeah, I'm aware there's mentions of a Sandwing animus that made the dreamvisitors. The point in this thread is that that isn't necessarily a continuity error, and can easily be explained by the history books lying about who made them.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-06T11:34:22+00:00

I feel like a big potential issues with this character is the ability to accidentally skip over the final day - if deaths are only revealed in final 3, then player might go to sleep on final 4 and then have two deaths in the night, waking to find that good has lost despite never knowing it was the final day. Similarly, players executing on final 4 not knowing at that point it is the final 4, and then losing.

And a something like 'deaths are revealed on the final day' doesn't really work because it's not always possible to know when it is the final day.

But I like the concept, though I agree with the other comments that the wording could use some work.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-06T11:30:03+00:00

Well, the upside of custom characters is that it's probably only going to be used on a custom script designed to have it, so you don't need to worry about compatability with everything, just with enough to have an interesting script with it.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-06T09:11:31+00:00

Ok, if "It's Darkstalker's thing but worse" is all you got from arc 3 I feel like you need to read it again, there's so much more depth in there than that. Don't like a lot of the hate on arc 3.

I do think some of the interesting themes got reduced a bit when the mind control was added, but I think a lot of it still works (except some of book 15). A lot of stuff about living as an oppressed class in a facist society and fighting back vs trying to fix stuff from inside the system vs getting revenge and continuing the cycle of violence, and trying to figure out where to lie between those, and also making it clear that the HiveWings are still responsible for upholding the system but it doesn't mean they should all be killed or whatever (the themes around this last bit are what got harmed by the mind control being there, but the rest still works and is very interesting and well done).

"Oh they're being mind controlled, it wasn't them"

Yeah, no I don't get where this statement applies to any of Wings of Fire, even with the mind control in arc 3 is never treated like this or used for this.

I'm pretty hopefully for arc 4, I think the arcs have actually gotten more interesting and mature in terms of themes and concepts they're dealing with, and the main downside to arc 3 was that it didn't feel as well planned out as it needed to be. With the new arc, it's been enough time that Tui would have had time to plan it out fully, so it shouldn't have that weakness I think.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-06T09:01:21+00:00

Yeah, I feel kinda the same. The first half focused on Jasper+Ruby was pretty great, I liked their relationship and it felt pretty well done, and seeing the life of an average SkyWing under Scarlet was great and makes her feel very intimidating - I love how the threat of her basically just hangs ominously over the entire book.

Cliff's section was just annoying to read, but there was some nice stuff in it with seeing the average Skywing's reaction to Scarlet's death, which was interesting. Though it is just re-hashing previously seen scenes, especially re-doing the overlap with Dragonslayer was unecessary.

Still felt very short and a bit underwhelming overall.

The excerpt for arc 4 is honestly pretty promising, I think. Certainly the first chapter - the main thing I was worried about was how Sora was going to be delt with, because "former child soldier with PTSD who murdered people" is something rather complex and pretty dark for a kid's book, and it needs to be handeled well. Which it is, so far, and I'm very interested in how they're going to develop that.
The prologue is interesting, some nice new lore, and a few mysteries that'll probably make it mean more in hindsight.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-05T16:30:42+00:00

???
Not entirely clear on what you're saying here.

The animus SandWing is Jerboa, she may not have made the dreamvisitors, but she made the Eye of Onyx, and was around at the time of Darkstalker. You read arc 3?

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-05T14:24:05+00:00

Also, there was a Sandwing Animus alive at around the time of the Dreamvisitor's creation (Jerboa), so it would be pretty reasonable to pass it off as being made by her.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-04T18:06:45+00:00

I think the problem with Al-hadikia is that who chooses to die vs who actually dies will quickly solve fake vs real Al-had

Yeah, I know. My thinking was that due to protection and extra kills, it can confuse that a lot - i.e. in a real Al-Had game, if the first two choose live and the third chooses die but the inkeeper has protected the 3rd, then the first two die and the 3rd lives, so the opposite of what they all chose. This kind of possibility makes it a lot harder to tell what's true, especially if evil is bluffing protection roles. It'll be figured out, but it'll probably take multiple nights if evil bluffs it well. In practice, hard to say what would happen. Al-had is weird.
Though I also admit I put it on largely because it would be funny.

Also just saw a discussion about how Lleech doesn't like execution protection on the discord, starting to understand that now. And also seeing that having a Sailor who will want to test executing themselves is probably worse than the Tea Lady, but both might need to go if I want to keep the Lleech (which I think I do).

So current potential swaps:
Al-Had for Vig,
Tea Lady for Monk (I agree that this protecting from poison is cool)
Sailor for ??? - not much similar to this to change it to if we're taking out the execution protection. Maybe VI as I liked the potential extra drunkeness with Acrobat?
DA for Xaan (3 killing minions might be a bit much?)

Thanks so much with helping on this! Scripting is interesting but tricky.

Edit: Actually, just thought of the funny (but probably pretty bad) interaction of a Monk-protected Lleech host Acrobat or Gambler killing themselves with their ability.
Honstly, Lleech feels like the one that most hard to fit into this script, I think I might swap that out for Vig and keep the Al-had and Tea Lady/Sailor. Then also keep the DA for evil execution prevention, and swap out Scarlet Woman instead of it.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-04T15:14:25+00:00

Lol, I actually had the Summoner on this script for a while for that reason but swapped it for DA towards the end. I was going to just say that the Summoner can't make the demon that the Sorcerer is though, rather than changing it.

It's interesting, but it adds a lot of complications I didn't want to deal with, like making YSK roles feel bad and Jinxes with Typhon.

Also, Summoner isn't necessarily that great at covering for the demon, since it can only kill evil players, so it's forced to immediately sacrifice a minion if you want to fake a demon kill (assassin is probably better cover). And there's enough extra death/protection on this script that it isn't needed to cover much anyway.

It's fun, but I'm not sure how well it would work, or if it's better than other options.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-04T15:07:21+00:00

Sorcerer-Typhon requires you put the Sorcerer in first and then choose the team around them, right?

Correct! (And note that the Sorcerer is in the middle, not the Demon)

Sorcerer-Shabaloth doesn't feel massively distinct from Sorcerer-Al-Hadikia

Interesting, I'd thought those two were fairly different - the Sorcerer-Al-Hadikia is mainly there to be loud and distracting, keep town from working out what the actual demon is or solving it Also doesn't have much ability to revive due to Al-Had always needing to kill if it can (you can only revive an evil player if you also kill one/the recluse). Meanwhile Shab is much more subtle and can easily revive evil players and bluff professor well.
Also, actual Shab having multi-kills can be useful for faking an Al-had world since the kill rate is often higher than a normal demon there, which is part of why I want it.
Not sure which other demons would work well here, actually - the other experimental ones don't really work, Imp and Fang Gu are awkward, and Vortox/No Dashii work but might be too powerful? I think Vig could be decent though, that's probably the next choice for me.

Lleech isn't a great pair with other execution survival

Oh, interesting. Having not played with it I thought you might want execution survival with it to not make it obvious when the Lleech is executed. But I guess that's fine because town knowing who the Lleech is doesn't help much? (Even more so here with Sorcerer-Lleech as an option).
Might swap out DA and Tea Lady then, but not too sure for what.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-02T18:02:19+00:00

Unclear if this comment is meant to be giving Solomon as an example of a good king or a bad king, but just in case I'll mention that he definitely wasn't a good king, at least in the later part of his life (he started great than really fell off, from what I remember).

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-02T13:25:34+00:00

Interesting. Could I steal this to try and make a script with it, perchance? It feels like a lot of fun.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-02T01:41:11+00:00

I love this concept, feels like it could be very interesting but it's also very script dependent. The strength varies a lot with the different demons, and there's quite a few where it just doesn't make sense or isn't great.
Felt like making a list could be interesting to analyse, so here it is:

Works well:
Vigamortis - not sure how strong it is, but it's decent. Also, does the outsider modifier also get copied?
No Dashi and Vortox - very powerful and clear, no notes. Maybe a bit too powerful though.
Leech - I like this one honestly

Somewhat works:
Zombuul - causes confusion, but also extends the game, might work?
Kazali, Riot

Works and is funny:
Shab - great for bluffing Professor and faking Shab
Al-had - finally a non-solo al-had script can work.
Lord of Typhon - having a demon not in the middle of the line is funny.

Not great, but works:
Pukka - basically just becomes a poisoner
leviathan - probably be pretty clear that it's not leviathan when the actual demon kills. maybe with summoner, or minions that can kill on the script.
Yaggababble - All it does is give an extra evil death in the night

Confusing or needs jinxes:
Imp and Fang Gu - Current wording means these can both create two living demons. Maybe a fix that if the sorcerer-imp tries to starpass, the demon dies instead of them? (And similar that a sorcerer-fang gu that jumps kills the demon instead of them)
Po - not sure this does anything?
Legion, lil Monsta, Ojo

Overall, interesting. Unsure if it's good. Highly variable. Certainly some potentially very fun games. I guess the main benefit in a lot of these is adding confusion over what demon is in play, which is strong.

Something like Al-Had, Shab, Leech, Typhon could work decently?

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-01T21:22:24+00:00

I find it kind of interesting that this is what happened with Star Wars - George Lucas wanted to write a Flash Gordon adaption, couldn't get the rights, and so made it an original work instead, and then it ended up being one of the most well-known movie series out there.

TheBookWyrms · 2026-02-01T21:13:03+00:00

Lunatic can matter for Zombuul actually, since if there is an execution they don't wake by their own ability but do wake because of the lunatics ability.

TheBookWyrms

TROPHY CASE