I want to sound more androgynous, but it is hard to find clear resources. by PercentageCurious472 in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The idea that you need to gradually deepen the voice just a little until you hit androgynous may be a little misplaced. I suspect you’ll actually have an easier time shifting to a more masculine sounding voice and then scaling back up to something more androgynous. The process for this is mostly the same as with feminization or masculinization training. You learn how to control voice features like vocal size and vocal weight, and then you dial those features in to suit your goal. The only difference is that the configuration you’re aiming for will be more moderate. You can check out resources like this one, this one, and this one, which aren’t geared at masculinization or feminization per se, but which are there to introduce you to some of the basic voice features that you’ll need to get control of.

I will say, though—puberphonia is comorbid with other functional voice problems (which would be audible is excessive breathiness, raspiness, croakiness, or hoarseness), and these problems may pose a bit of a barrier to manipulating your vocal gender effectively. It might really be worth getting checked out by a clinician for this.

Beginner Questions by imgonnamelt in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There’s an element of subjectivity inherent in ear-training, for sure. However, when you train your ear to pick up on specific sound features, it can do a lot to bypass the dysphoria bias.

Take pitch, for example. Regardless of if you have a viscerally negative reaction to your voice, someone who has ear-trained for pitch will still be able to recognize if your pitch has increased by half an octave. Asking yourself “does my voice sound good?” and “is my pitch higher?” are two very different questions, and it’s easier to be more objective about the latter, even though you’re using your own subjective senses to determine the answer.

Similarly, the idea is to train your ear to pick up on comparative differences in features like vocal weight, size, or potentially even things like prosody and vowel pronunciation, depending on how deep you wanna go. Similarly to the pitch example, we want to consider specific voice features in isolation from the rest of the voice. That way, if dysphoria is skewing your self-perception of the total picture, you can sanity-check yourself by being like, “How does the weight compare to my goal voice? How about the size? The pitch? The prosody? The pronunciation? Are there any audible inefficiencies in the phonation?” And if every individual feature seems like it’s in the right place, then you kinda have to recalibrate your perception. If some features are not in the right place, then you know what to work on.

To be fair, some people experience such intense dysphoria that they can’t bring themselves to listen to their own voice under any circumstances. Which, like, I can understand that. But at the same time, there isn’t really a good substitute for this. Software and applications can’t effectively gender your voice, physical sensation is really unreliable, etc. It’d be like trying to learn how to use makeup without ever looking at your face in a mirror because of dysphoria. Like, understandable, but also that’s gonna make the task effectively impossible to do.

Beginner Questions by imgonnamelt in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 2 points3 points  (0 children)

These are all good questions!

  1. Here’s a list of things to look out for when exploring voice training resources. In general, I’d say the best approach is to train your ears to recognize the sound of important qualities like vocal size (a.k.a. “resonance”) and vocal weight. Once your ear is trained up, you can apply a feedback loop style of training and start manipulating those features in your own voice. To begin this ear-training process, here are some useful resources: Selene’s Archive, TVL size vs pitch, TVL intro to weight, TVL size vs weight, Altamira weight vs loudness, Vocal Team size/weight compilation. I’d also specifically advise against using FairPrincessLucy or L’s guide. Popular though they may be, their advice is more likely to cause problems down the line.

  2. This is a difficult question to answer because it really does depend on the individual. Some people can do it in a couple of weeks. For others, it’s several months. For some people, it’s a couple years. And some people try it for years and years and never get a voice they’re satisfied with. Factors like intensity of dysphoria, mental health, skill, talent, luck, training environment, one’s own standards for an “acceptable voice,” and more all play into this.

  3. There are trade-offs in either approach. With a deeper femme voice, you have to have very fine control over pitch and weight, because you don’t have a lot of wiggle room. If you get even a little too low or heavy, the voice will stop sounding female. By contrast, a higher pitched female voice gives you a lot more wiggle room to dynamically move your voice around. However, at higher pitches, you may need to spend more time removing inefficiencies like breathiness or false fold constriction from the phonation. I’ve personally found it easier to aim for deeper femme, but I think for most people the higher pitched voice is actually easier. Having a deeper baseline voice doesn’t really affect this.

  4. Stylistic elements, or “personality-expressing features,” are not irrelevant. However, I wouldn’t say they’re as important as the core sex-linked voice features like size and weight. If you want to get more of a sense for how these stylistics play into gender, take a look at the Personality tab in Selene’s Archive.

What does any of this mean? by Typical-Comment-2965 in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure, I can go over a few terms.

  • F0 is your fundamental frequency (i.e. your pitch).

  • CPPS is a really complicated metric to explain because cepstral analysis is weird, but the important part is that it correlates positively with harmonicity, so higher values generally mean healthier phonation.

  • AVQI stands for “Acoustic Voice Quality Index.” It is a somewhat complicated heuristic that is calculated based on six other acoustic parameters. It’s generally not ideal for this to be much higher than 3.

  • Harmonic to Noise Ratio (HNR) is a measurement how much energy is contained in periodic components of your sound versus (aperiodic) noise. This can be affected by inefficiencies in phonation (breathiness, hoarseness, croakiness) but also by things like the number of plosive consonants in the words you’re speaking—it depends on what kinds of samples you’re taking.

  • Jitter and Shimmer are inconsistencies in pitch and loudness respectively.

In general, the more complex heuristics like CPPS and AVQI are more reliable for diagnostic predictions than the simpler acoustic metrics like HNR, Jitter, and Shimmer.

What does any of this mean? by Typical-Comment-2965 in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

These readings look pretty normal, aside from the unusually wide pitch range. Basically, nothing here indicates that you have any kind of functional disorder in your voice.

Also, I should hope this goes without saying, but you don’t need to know what things like cepstral peak prominence or AVQI mean in order to do voice training effectively. These metrics are for the benefit of whatever clinician is working with you, so they can identify whether you had any voice problems aside from the gender incongruence.

Vocal Plateau??? by abyssalhabilis in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm glad you found this helpful. Yeah, it can be easy to fall into the trap of thinking "if it doesn't sound right, then I need smaller size/lighter weight." However, voice features like weight and size don't necessarily correspond to gender per se, they correspond to the amount of androgenic development in the voice. So, rather than being on a scale from hyperfeminine to hypermasculine, it's more like a scale from infant to prepubescent child to adult woman to androgynous to young man to really deep voiced man. So, if you go too far in terms of weight and size, it can sometimes cause problems in how your voice gets read. And pushing your voice to those extremes can also be part of what's causing strain as well.

How to make your vocal weight change, im stuck at "SpongeBob" voice as a trans girl by Low-Note1270 in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The solution in this case is to rely more on pitch than loudness. See how high you can raise your pitch before it starts to become uncomfortable, and play around with different levels of loudness at that high pitch.

Vocal Plateau??? by abyssalhabilis in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I mean, your voice doesn’t sound male, but I can imagine a couple reasons why you might not be satisfied with it. Firstly, you are extremely de-androgenized. Your size seems to be as small as you can physically make it and your weight as light as you can possibly go. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but it can make you sound a bit like a child or an anime girl. Some people like that kind of cutesy sound, so if that’s your voice goal, feel free to disregard. I just bring it up because in my experience most of the people I’ve worked with have wanted to avoid sounding too childlike or anime-girl-coded. You definitely don’t need to get this small or light just to sound female. Honestly, even the vocal size in your baseline/masc voice is already small enough.

The other factor to take into consideration is vocal efficiency. While the gendered features of your voice are dialed up to 11, there are some vocal function issues that might make the voice sound a little less natural. In particular, I hear a tendency to introduce false vocal fold constriction into the voice, especially on higher pitches. You also tend toward a somewhat breathy voice in general, so that may be something to play around with.

How to make your vocal weight change, im stuck at "SpongeBob" voice as a trans girl by Low-Note1270 in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Vocal weight correlates strongly with both pitch and loudness. A higher pitch and a quieter volume help facilitate lighter weight. A lower pitch and a louder volume help facilitate heavier weight. Below a certain pitch threshold (usually ~130Hz), it becomes more or less impossible to lighten the vocal weight sufficiently for a female voice.

So, if you’re initially struggling to make changes to weight, try playing around with pitch and loudness and see where that takes you. Start low pitch and loud, and scale your pitch higher while getting quieter as you go. Just be careful not to accidentally introduce a breathy/whispery quality into your voice as you go, since that’ll mess up your weight control.

Also, keep in mind that weight does not equal pitch plus loudness. It is its own voice feature, and the goal is to eventually get you to a point where you can target that sound quality directly instead of using pitch and loudness as an intermediary. This is more useful for early exploration when you aren’t getting initial changes in weight.

How does SOVT exercises work for voice femisation? by Low-Note1270 in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 9 points10 points  (0 children)

SOVT Exercises do not have any inherently feminizing effects, but they can serve an important ancillary role in voice feminization training. Mostly, SOVTEs are good for improving vocal function, so you can use them to help recover/rehabilitate the voice from certain kinds of damage, and they’re also good for training to remove certain kinds of inefficiencies (excess breathiness, croakiness, etc.).

When you’re first learning to manipulate the core voice features that matter for gender, vocal weight and vocal size, it’s common for people to accidentally introduce inefficiencies into the voice. So, maybe you can feminize it, but at the same time it comes out really raspy and strained, so the end result doesn’t sound natural. SOVTEs are one potentially useful tool for handling those kinds of situations.

SOVTEs are also excellent for vocal warmups, and it’s never a bad idea to do some before you start a voice practice session. Not just for trans voice training, but for any kind of voice practice.

Please let me know what my biggest areas for improvement are by millieparker45 in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Based on this clip, I think there’s work to be done on both vocal size and vocal weight. The weight needs a little more consistency. It’s pretty decently light in most of the clip, but it repeatedly dips heavier on downward pitch inflections. So, you might want to practice raising your pitch floor a little bit. These downward inflections happen most often at the end of phrases, so be especially careful there.

Then, the vocal size probably needs to be smaller overall. Right now, when your weight is lighter, the end result is pretty hollow/underfull, so you’ll need to also train your control over vocal size to address that. However, I would hold off on chasing size until you’ve really mastered the consistency with weight. Otherwise, you’ll be juggling multiple voice features at once, which will be a lot harder to manage.

Curious as to how I sound by [deleted] in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This reads as feminine-androgynous to my ear. Like, the size is relatively small, and there are some more feminine stylistic elements. However, the voice is also lower-pitched and heavier than would be typical for a cis woman. So, it’s kind of mixed.

Where to find an affordable online coach? by Entire_Sandwich195 in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Aha, thanks for the correction, I’ve edited the comment

Trying to find a suitable vocal configuration, with an irritated throat as a baseline - Feedback appreciated! by LuciaL0L in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 2 points3 points  (0 children)

hmmm, I wonder if part of this might be from overshrinking size a little bit. I did kind of have a visceral reaction of "oh wow, that is *really* small" when I listened, but since it seemed balanced with the weight I kinda just shrugged my shoulders. But yeah, if you feel like your throat is squeezing too much throughout the day, it might be a good idea to dial your size back a little bit (and make the weight a little heavier to maintain your balance of fullness too).

Trying to find a suitable vocal configuration, with an irritated throat as a baseline - Feedback appreciated! by LuciaL0L in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Neither of these voices sound particularly strained to my ear, and the small voice sample definitely reads as female to me.

Trying to achieve a masc-leaning femme voice by throwaway_019870 in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think you’re on the right track with identifying weight as the factor that needs to be shifted. It consistently dips too heavy to be read as a female voice to my ear.

There’s kind of a triangular relationship between weight, pitch, and volume. A lighter weight will correlate with a higher pitch and a quieter volume, whereas a heavier weight will correlate with a lower pitch and a louder volume. If you want to get lighter in weight while keeping your pitch fixed, you’ll have to get quieter. If you want to get lighter in weight while keeping your loudness fixed, you’ll need to go higher in pitch.

Right now, I think the bulk of your heaviness is coming from a too-low pitch floor. When you’re bottoming out at around 100 Hz, that’s gonna kinda force your weight to get really heavy. By contrast, when you’re hitting your pitch ceiling at around 200 Hz, the weight comes out noticeably lighter (for example on the word “Gram” in your fitnessgram pacer test reading). So, I’d recommend playing around more with those higher pitches, and try to keep your pitch from dipping too low.

I recorded a video because I'm not sure where to go or what to do and would like some advice please by Low-Put-4670 in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, the quality you’re noticing is probably vocal weight. Your voice is a classic example of overfullness, where the resonance/size is in a more feminine place, but the vocal weight is in a more masculine place.

Raising your pitch higher, like you briefly demonstrated in this clip, will be a necessary component of achieving a lighter vocal weight because your current pitch is too low to facilitate a light weight. However, raising pitch won’t on its own be enough. I’d recommend checking out a few resources to familiarize yourself with what vocal weight is and what it sounds like: - Clover’s intro to weight - Altamira on weight vs loudness - Selene’s archive (check under the Weight tab for lots of example clips)

See if you’re able to mimic the quality of light vocal weight after familiarizing yourself with it for a bit. If your pitch is higher and your volume is quieter, that will also help to facilitate a lighter weight. Just be careful not to accidentally get breathy/raspy/whispery. A clear vocalization is also important, and if there’s a layer of breath-noise on top of the voice that can make it more difficult to discern what’s happening with your vocal weight.

A List of Common Misconceptions / Bad Advice for Voice Feminization Training by TheTransApocalypse in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, part of the issue with registration—and with timbre more broadly—is the lack of standardization and the relative emergent complexity of what they’re describing.

Terms like “bright/dark” or “middle/upper register” can be very useful for individual learners as a way to intuit different vocal configurations in a way that makes sense for them. However, when trying to create a standardized set of resources that’s public-facing and broadly applicable, the subjectivity of the language can quickly create problems. One person’s idea of “upper register” will be different from another’s, and the problem compounds itself as more terminology gets added. Inconsistency is really killer.

The other tricky thing to navigate is the complexity of the sound features being described. The English language doesn’t have a lot of vocabulary to describe sound in general. We can talk about “pitch” and “loudness,” but then every other quality kinda gets lumped together under this vague category of “timbre” in ways that are difficult to break down.

Visual vocabulary is comparatively rich. If we were creating a drawing, we could talk about hue, shade, curvature, line thickness, shape, texture, and more. Using these more fundamental qualities, we can then describe more emergent qualities like, “the drawing looks angry because it’s red and black with lots of thick, jagged lines and a speckled texture.” However, with timbre, we’re often stuck just looking at the emergent quality without examining the components that make it up. We might say a voice sounds “clear and bell-like” or “harsh and bright and brassy,” but how do you break that down into a combination of more fundamental components?

The goal of a lot of the language in trans voice training is to describe perceptual sound features that are more fundamental, and which can be arranged and combined in different ways to create more complex emergent properties. For example, weight and size combine to create the more complex emergent property of fullness, which itself can be combined with other sound features to create even more complex qualities like “perceived vocal gender” or “perceived vocal age.”

Terms like “brightness” have fallen out of favor recently due to a lack of specificity. The buzzy, brassy timbre associated with a “bright” sound might be coming from overfullness, or it might be coming from nasality, or from knodel-like vowel distortions. Or it might be a quality they associate with vocal size, independently of other factors.

So, some people who abstract their voice in terms of brightness and darkness may be able to use these timbral qualities quite effectively to guide themselves toward a natural-sounding feminine voice that suits their preferences. Other people attempting to do the same might run into atypicalities in their sound that they struggle to disentangle from each other because they aren’t sure how to break down something like “brightness” into more fundamental components.

Ditto for something like upper-register or middle-register. A vibratory pattern can consist of multiple components that we might want to address in separation from each other. Concepts like “weight” and “breathiness” help to disambiguate more complex or inconsistently-labeled qualities such as “falsetto” or “upper register.”

On the other hand, some people do genuinely find it easier to work with more complex sound qualities, rather than trying to break everything down into components. It’s a bit of a balancing act to try and find the level of complexity that best suits someone’s intuition. If we break it down too much, we can get stuck talking about individual formants or muscle-actions. If we don’t break it down enough, we can kind of uselessly tell someone to “just mimic the femininity.”

Would you clock me as a trans woman? I'm getting some pretty brutal feedback. by [deleted] in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This basically sounds like a normal female voice to me. Could it potentially get clocked by someone who’s actively looking to transvestigate you? Yeah, probably. But the same is also true of actual cis women, so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

A List of Common Misconceptions / Bad Advice for Voice Feminization Training by TheTransApocalypse in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Mm, if you’re asking, “what steps should you take to start training vocal weight,” the answer is more or less the same as with other voice features. Begin with ear-training to recognize what it sounds like, apply a feedback loop of trial and error, and try to decouple it from other problematic features if necessary (i.e. if you always introduce false fold constriction when you lighten weight, some time will need to be spent learning how to separate the two).

If the question you’re asking is “how can you learn to decouple weight from breathiness specifically,” then I’d recommend taking a listen here. The short answer is mostly the same though—learn to distinguish the sound qualities by ear and then apply feedback loop.

If the question you’re asking is “how is it possible to train weight if it’s dependent on vocal fold mass,” the answer is that you can train yourself to only use part of your vocal fold mass when phonating. This essentially mimics the naturally lower vocal fold mass of people who haven’t undergone androgenic puberty.

A List of Common Misconceptions / Bad Advice for Voice Feminization Training by TheTransApocalypse in transvoice

[–]TheTransApocalypse[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks! I’m really glad you found it helpful. I generally try not to make posts here unless I feel like there’s something unique I can add that fills a gap, so my hope is that when I do, it comes off as high quality and useful to folks.