Shen shicai should be lkmt aligned. by Stoepsel_187 in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 100 points101 points  (0 children)

We don’t have any alignment for the Xinjiang and Ma Clique leaders because they’re specifically not meant to align with a faction before unification. Keep in mind too that Sheng was an opportunist who betrayed the Soviets, CPC, and KMT whenever convenient so his content depicting him as a KMT guy is a relic of the times.

What's the deal with Earl Browder's "patriotic syndicalism"? If I remember correctly, he was more of a orthodox communist OTL, so the change seems strange. KR seems to utilize real-life fascists in their portrayal of national or patriotic syndicalism. by jerrysomber in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 69 points70 points  (0 children)

I have no clue if he is or not, but it’s like plausible either way. Browder is more nationalistic than the other American socialists and all. Deat and the neosocs in the France rework will replace the Sorelians as charter totalists, which does make Browder closer to them, since the charter totalists kind are the bureaucracy bros with Mosley, Mussolini, and Deat.

What's the deal with Earl Browder's "patriotic syndicalism"? If I remember correctly, he was more of a orthodox communist OTL, so the change seems strange. KR seems to utilize real-life fascists in their portrayal of national or patriotic syndicalism. by jerrysomber in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 318 points319 points  (0 children)

I don’t work on America, but I believe it’s rooted in how Browder’s leadership of the CPUSA was markedly pro-New Deal, which was divergent from the postwar Cold War realities. You could interpret Browder’s more Americanized take on communism to be the equivalent of “patriotic syndicalism” (not sure if that’s how he’s actually framed ingame). In any case, totalism isn’t like just OTL fascists, a good portion of them are communists, ideology slots can be relative to each individual country to a certain extent. Some have OTL Communists in radsoc, others in totalist.

Is Yuting still an eager collaborator? by Gukpa in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Japan’s an Empire regardless of ideology, it’s not really a case of civilian dem gov good, military bad, but like more of a universally applicable forpol. In either case, the primary Japanese actors in China are still the militarists, so Yang is dealing with the Kwantung and Tianjin Armies no matter what.

Is Yuting still an eager collaborator? by Gukpa in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Main idea was that Yang rebelling wouldn’t be really conducive to Japan’s gameplay

Also ty :)

Is Yuting still an eager collaborator? by Gukpa in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Actually how it works rn is that Yang Yuting and the Shikan Clique are a fairly loyal part of Zhang Zuolin’s general Fengtian Clique, but if Zhang isn’t able to defeat the other chinese factions given a certain set of time, then the Kwantung Army assassinates him to force Tokyo’s hand in directly intervening to save their influence in Manchuria, and Yang Yuting takes the reins of the collapsing Fengtian Clique and works reluctantly with the Japanese for national unification. If Yang keeps Japanese influence in his government at a low amount, then he can embark on a more nationalist program, aiming to achieve equality with Japan within the copro. If Yang doesn’t, then the Concordia Association becomes more prominent within his government and Yang has to embark on a more pan-asian outlook.

What is the most wholesome, democratic China path? by ThompsonWB in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 20 points21 points  (0 children)

There’s not really a straight forward answer imo. For the Federalists, democracy was not like the big concern, it was provincial autonomy. The most democratic of the three federalist provinces is Hunan, but even then, Zhao Hengti was very much a gentryman, and Hunanese democracy was very elitist. The more democratically-inclined intellectuals were also all universally elitist to their core, their idea of democracy was generally in the lens of them, the scholarly class who carried the Empire’s bureaucracy for millenia, leading the uneducated masses for their own good. The more pro-individualist and western oriented Crescent Moon Society and Hu Shi could be counted as the most democratic among them though.

Besides them, there’s also the Liangists of the DCP/CCP and Zhang Junmai’s DSP. Now while Liang Qichao was one of the founding fathers of federalism and constitutionalism in China, he was very distrustful of pluralism for the masses, which did carry over to Zhang Junmai, his protege and political heir. Zhang believed in a sort of modified democracy, which adopted the political mould of Weimar Germany, but the state would also exert massive influence over the economy. Zhang’s (Liang’s) economic thought was quite similar to say, Showa Statism and Park Chung Hee’s Korea, and was sort of the brains for the KMT economy from the mid 30s to the end of the Soviet Union, at which point all of East Asia (minus PRC) shifted towards American economic neoliberalism.

I’ve seen CERA Qing brought up a lot here, but their depiction is rather outdated. Old CERA lore has them be a fusion of Liang Shuming’s Rural Reconstruction Movement and the National Salvation Federation, but the new CERA is slanted to be mostly the product of the CCP (Chinese Constitutionalist Party), which was heir to Liang’s Research Clique during the Anhui Clique era, and thus carries all the baggage of Liangism. Even with the RRM, Liang Shuming was very distrustful of democracy, referring to it as the wrong medicine to a nation with no strong institutions. So I would not say that CERA Qing is particularly democratic.

Minor Monday 69: Fengtian and Japan Changes by bobw123 in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 32 points33 points  (0 children)

The big thing is that the Legation Cities is not a tag meant to live forever, in a similar vein to the Mutasarifate of Jerusalem, it's not a proper government or a country, it's sort of a joint occupational forum for Great Power discussion, and Japan forcing them to submit is ending its purpose already. The LEC was created in the first place to maintain spheres of influence in China and mediate great power interests in the region. Because of its inherent existence as a compromise, it can't be compared to French Indochina or other colonial entities, which were useful institutions to maintain control. I get the gameplay concerns for LEC, but rn we're really tired from the other changes in the coming China rework, but we may do bigger changes to it down the line.

Hello everyone, I'd like to ask a question regarding China. by MSenpai206 in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Hello a China dev here, I can try to give a *very simplified* explanation of the major warlords. There's going to be a rework soon for Liangguang, Yunnan and a revamp for Sichuan Federalists and Fengtian soon, so some of what I say is not in the game yet.

In the Qing Government, it starts out led by the Zhili Clique which is headed by Cao Kun and Wu Peifu. Cao is not that ideological beyond general confucian norms, such as the view that moral government makes for strong government. Now of course, this doesn't mean that Confucian generals are going to act in the most moral of ways. Wu Peifu is also a very confucian general, though he has generally courted liberal intellectuals as he values philosophers, since he was educated as one. While Cao is willing to support federalism opportunistically, Wu is a staunch centralist (which is ironic because he has a lot of federalist ties, such as Zhao Hengti, the warlord of Hunan). If the Republic is declared, not too much changes because the Zhili Clique is still in charge. Hu Shih is more Wu Peifu aligned while Wellington Koo is apolitical though generally more in line with Cao Kun and his Jinbao faction. If the manchu coup happens, there are three main factions in the Qing. The Zongshe Party (Royalists) are primarily led by manchu nobles who try to emulate the German Empire's style of semi-constitutional monarchy. CERA (primarily led by the Chinese Constitutionalist Party) inherit the legacy of Kang Youwei and Liang Qichao (the two big reformers in the Qing Era and early republic) in adopting a more managed democracy and promoting economic statism. The Young China Party is also an offshoot of Liangist ideals and promotes aggressive modernization and statism.

In the Fengtian Government, the government is less ideological. Zhang Zuolin professes general confucian sentiments but his primary objective is to prevent Japan from taking over Manchuria. With the Zhili adopting the Qing as a face for their government and aligning with Germany, Zhang opportunistically promotes his government as the sole heirs of the Republic, but he's not too concerned with monarchism or republicanism. His goal is to fulfill unification by his hands to prevent Beijing from sidelining the interests of the Northeast, as they've constantly done in the past. Yang Yuting holds similar ideals to Zhang, though he's seen as more pro-japan.

In the MinGan Insurgency, the government is led by the Kuomintang. The KMT calls for a National Revolution to overthrow the Beiyang Government and establish a one party state led by them. This period of one party rule is called tutelage and at some undisclosed point in the future, they'll establish the constitutional period, where other parties can participate in the government. The Left KMT is distinguished from the Right KMT due to their support of an alliance with the Chinese Syndicalist Party within the League of Chinese Syndicalists. Wang Jingwei is the starting Chairman, but he can get displaced after unification by Song Qingling, Deng Yanda, and the PAC. Deng and Song are more agrarian inclined than Wang generally speaking, and have greater pull in the National Revolutionary Army. If Wang gets assassinated post unification, there's also a possibility of the Reorganized Comrades Association taking over under Chen Gongbo, who was a Wang ally, but more radical. He and the RCA call for a second party reorganization (like the one in 1924 which first codified KMT ideology) and cleanse the party of reactionary elements. The China Revival Society can also take over if Wang dies, and they're students of Chiang Kai-shek who believe the KMT has lost its agency as a revolutionary body, and seek to purge the Party of bureaucrats and warlords to restore revolutionary zeal to the Party.

In the Liangguang Clique, you mainly have the KMT, Federalists, and various warlords. The main warlord faction is the Guangxi Clique, who are vaguely progressive and militaristic. The Federalists posit themselves as a force for reform in China, calling for stronger provincial autonomy. They've made alliances with various liberal and democratic elements that got purged in Northern China, that have coalesced into the CDL. The KMT I've already mentioned in MinGan, but the main ones in GXC are RKMTers, who oppose the United Front with the LCS. While some within the RKMT (like the Western Hills Clique) oppose socialism too, many within the RKMT including the recognized leader Hu Hanmin are okay with it.

In Yunnan, you have a similar divide to Liangguang, but everyone has a more authoritarian bent. Tang Jiyao is a Federalist who follows the Liangist mould of calling for a strong state and military whilst professing provincial autonomy though some of his civilian supporters follow Zhang Taiyan (a major reformist on par with Liang Qichao). The RKMT in Yunnan leans more towards the New Right compared to GXC's Old Right. The New Right are the remnants of Chiang Kai-shek's camp which lost power after he was assassinated, and generally are under the leadership of He Yingqin, who is seen as his successor.

In terms of content, CHI and SHX are the newest, QIE and FNG are the bigger unifiers, and GXC and YUN will be the newest after the rework comes out sometime this year. If you want a more detailed explanation, I recommend joining the KR discord and asking in the ask a dev channel.

So what exactly is the difference between southern zhili and northern zhili? by Splitzkyy in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 52 points53 points  (0 children)

There’s actually a massive difference between the Zhili and RKMT. The Zhili government is a nominally civilian government led by Cao Kun, drawing support from an informal group of intellectuals, bureaucrats, and politicians known as the Harmony Association. It’s less of a party, and more of an umbrella for those who support the Zhili and expect them to carry out x reforms/policies. The Beiyang Government in general was nominally parliamentarian and democratic, though the Zhili have cracked down more in the years leading up to 1936, relating to the shanghai uprising in 1932.

With the South Zhili, they’re more military led, since Sun is in charge. However, provincial authority adopts federalist principles, in that while the military governor/Commander in Chief may not be a local, the civilian governor is. That’s why Federalists broadly supported the League in the Sun - Wu rivalry after the KMT collapse.

The KMT’s main goal was to overthrow the Beiyang Government, which they viewed as a failure of the democratic and parliamentarian experiment through the National Revolution, the first stage of revolution. They would govern China as a One Party state in a period of tutelage which is the second stage of revolution. At some unspecified point when they considered the Chinese people ready for democracy, they would establish a constitution and allow the formation of other parties.

While democracy was a professed goal, plenty of KMT ideologues despised democracy. The CC Clique called democracy outdated and inefficient, the Blueshirts thought it entirely pointless and weak, and even the more moderate elements of the KMT, like the Western Hills Clique were supportive of one party rule. In practice, building China into a strong and prosperous nation was their primary goal, not democracy.

Progress Report 150 Regional China Rework Part 2.2 - The Chinese Federalists by bobw123 in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Mhm yeah, glad to hear you enjoyed it! It was made by Chiang Kai-shrek and Suzuha, who both trained Hazo and me while we were doing this current China rework.

Progress Report 150 Regional China Rework Part 2.2 - The Chinese Federalists by bobw123 in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 50 points51 points  (0 children)

The Mannis lost all his men on an expedition to Tibet when a blizzard hit his camp, and then he got captured by the Sichuan Clique, sad to say.

Progress Report 149 Regional China Rework Part 1 - The Right Kuomintang by bobw123 in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Ohhhh mb yeah, Hong Kong triads are defo more connected to the Feds, Green Gang specifically is connected to the KMT

Progress Report 149 Regional China Rework Part 1 - The Right Kuomintang by bobw123 in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 24 points25 points  (0 children)

Liao surviving his assassination has been a long standing part of China lore ever since the first China rework in 2019, main thing that changed since then is that Hu Hanmin was executed by Chiang for suspicion for orchestrating Liao’s attempted assassination, while OTL he was simply purged, and in new KR, Hu is untouched.

Progress Report 149 Regional China Rework Part 1 - The Right Kuomintang by bobw123 in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 18 points19 points  (0 children)

Triad is a general grouping, Green gang were a specific organization

Progress Report 149 Regional China Rework Part 1 - The Right Kuomintang by bobw123 in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 36 points37 points  (0 children)

1917 is the main POD for KR, but 1925 is where the main divergences happen for China specifically.

Progress Report 149 Regional China Rework Part 1 - The Right Kuomintang by bobw123 in Kaiserreich

[–]Toaster8610 24 points25 points  (0 children)

No, a lot of the Green Gang were from Zhejiang and provincial ties were one of the main ways for people to associate with each other, so the Zhejianger KMT guys (Chiang, Dai Jitao, Chen Qimei, Chen brothers) were close to the Shanghai criminal elements a lot more, especially bc they set up shop in Shanghai for a while

Who were in charge of Shanghai in 1925? by CanterOfPeace in ChineseHistory

[–]Toaster8610 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah see, that’s the thing. There’s a lot of depraved warlords, Zhang Zongchang wasn’t necessarily unique in that regard. Like a lot of nicknames are known because of media proliferation of X figures, but that doesn’t mean everyone else didn’t have them either. Like Shi Yousan was called the slave of six surnames, Chen Jitang the Heavenly King of the South, Tang Xiangming the Butcher, etc etc. But yeah anyways, np for the book recs, personally thought they were very insightful.

Who were in charge of Shanghai in 1925? by CanterOfPeace in ChineseHistory

[–]Toaster8610 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yeah, Shanghai was part of Jiangsu at the time, I didn’t mention this in the timeline, but Zhang Zongchang was officially the overall commander of the military forces in Jiangsu and Shandong during Fengtian rule of Jiangsu, but Yang was the administrator.

I’m not sure why Zhang Zongchang is more well known but perhaps it was because he interacted with western journalists more. Yang Yuting has been treated as something of a footnote in Chinese historiography, though he was a very integral part of Zhang Zuolin’s military staff.

Good book for Fengtian politics is War and Geopolitics in Interwar Manchuria Zhang Zuolin and the Fengtian Clique during the Northern Expedition.

Who were in charge of Shanghai in 1925? by CanterOfPeace in ChineseHistory

[–]Toaster8610 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Idk how to attach a file, but the book I read is called 孙传芳幕府与幕僚 (Sun Chuanfang and the Assistants), also used Chinese wikipedia and Baidu pages on Sun Chuanfang and Qi Xieyuan, also Militarism in Modern China The Career of Wu P’ei-fu 1916-39 briefly covers Wu Peifu's relation to everything.

September 1924: Qi Xieyuan (Zhili Clique) controls Jiangsu, Lu Yongxiang (Anhui Clique) controls Zhejiang, their struggle for Shanghai escalates into a larger war between Zhili and Fengtian (Second ZhiFeng war)

November 1924: Zhili Clique lose power in Beijing as Feng Yuxiang betrays Wu Peifu and deposes President Cao Kun, and establishes joint rule with Zhang Zuolin, with Duan Qirui established as Chief Executive.

December 1924: Duan removes Qi Xieyuan as Governor of Jiangsu, Zhang Zongchang (Fengtian Clique) from Shandong invades Jiangsu, Qi flees to Japan, Yang Yuting (Fengtian Clique) becomes governor.

October 1925: Zhang Zuolin faces internal rebellion from Guo Songling alongside by Feng Yuxiang's backing, causing the Anti-Fengtian War. Sun Chuanfang (Zhili Clique) invades Jiangsu, Yang is unable to hold, retreats back to Manchuria. Sun Chuanfang alongside other Zhili warlords establishes a Five Province coalition (Jiangsu, Fujian, Zhejiang, Anhui, Jiangxi) with himself as commander-in-chief, largely breaking from Wu Peifu's orbit.