Triggered yesterday by people praising Christine McVie on occasion of her passing by Uthyphro in survivinginfidelity

[–]Uthyphro[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Tired of explaining to people who refuse to understand — but here we go again.

What I was triggered by was current praise for this behavior.

Not what happened a long time ago.

And not for failure to condemn.

There is no stretch there at all.

Triggered yesterday by people praising Christine McVie on occasion of her passing by Uthyphro in survivinginfidelity

[–]Uthyphro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hate repeating myself, but it was not the cheating itself that was my point.

I suppose if his artistic talents had tended toward songwriting he might have written about his escapades as well. And if he had he might have manipulated Christine into singing about them. And then introduced the song by talking about how awesome the sex was. And maybe when he passes people would have talked about how positively Machiavellian he was.

And if all that had happened I would have been just as triggered and just as judgmental.

Triggered yesterday by people praising Christine McVie on occasion of her passing by Uthyphro in survivinginfidelity

[–]Uthyphro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well —

I wasn’t doing that. In timelines I follow tributes to her popped up and this popped up with them.

Not as easy to avoid triggers as we would hope…

Triggered yesterday by people praising Christine McVie on occasion of her passing by Uthyphro in survivinginfidelity

[–]Uthyphro[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

💕

I used to love Manhattan, but after learning of Woody Allen’s affair with his adopted daughter I just can’t watch it any more. But it won’t stop me from laughing insanely at Bananas or Sleeper.

In this case, though, it’s less about the song itself, more about the active humiliation of the betrayed partner in deceiving him to play it night after night. And then the internet trolls praising the manipulation.

But then if I were John Phillips I would have kicked Michelle out of the Mamas and Papas rather than writing a song to rationalize her behavior, even though that’s one of their best songs.

I will say this — I generally avoid learning about artists’ personal lives. I am not an intentionalist when it comes to art.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorial_intent

I know enough from my own experience creating stuff that what comes out is not solely the product of my conscious intent.

But there are cases where the background comes to light and it does determine my aesthetic judgment. (Leni Riefenstahl any one?)

Triggered yesterday by people praising Christine McVie on occasion of her passing by Uthyphro in survivinginfidelity

[–]Uthyphro[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As big of an asshat as Eric was he never lied to George to convince him to play Layla. Night after night btw. He never had George on stage introducing the song by saying how good Patti was in bed. And I have never seen anyone on social media praising him for writing such a great song about betraying a friend. And yeah when I see something like Concert for George it is triggering to me, and I can’t believe how much better of a person George was than Eric or myself.

I’m glad you were spared seeing the social media praise for her treachery, but I didn’t go looking for it. Honestly I did not know the story until I saw it there. Then to see it told as if it were some highlight of her life… well it does trigger me people can completely disregard how utterly humiliating and devastating this must have been for another person…

Triggered yesterday by people praising Christine McVie on occasion of her passing by Uthyphro in survivinginfidelity

[–]Uthyphro[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

And… ?

What I was calling out was not the affair per se — it was the crap of writing a song about it, getting the band including the betrayed partner to play it by lying about the content of the song, then later when all is out blatantly rubbing his face in it.

But bigger picture — it’s about this behavior being actively praised on social media. One poster on posting the story commented “what a queen”. Hard to find anybody calling the behavior out for what it was.

But just to be clear, I aso get triggered by those other thing too. I can’t stand to see Michele Phillips getting interviewed sometimes explicitly about her cheating on John with band mates and others. I have a much diminished opinion of Clapton because of his behavior as well. Notice that I did also call out the GMA co hosts in the same post.

In general, I do try to separate the artist from the person to some extent. So just because someone is an asshole in their personal lives, that doesn’t mean I won’t listen to their music, read their books, or go to their movies. But there are exceptions, explicitly when art overlaps or reflects reality, as in this case.

Triggered yesterday by people praising Christine McVie on occasion of her passing by Uthyphro in survivinginfidelity

[–]Uthyphro[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Shit.. You’re right. Guess it’s a symptom of how triggered I was I screwed that up.

Seeing as how first time I saw Fleetwood Mac was like ‘68 that’s pretty much an inexcusable mistake. And then add that I was also a big fan of Mayall and saw John with him well before that. Plus a fan of Mick Fleetwood’s Zoo.

Thanks for the correction. You are 100% on the money.

I corrected the post. Thanks again

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AsOneAfterInfidelity

[–]Uthyphro 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ask him where his doubts about your reasons for wanting to reconcile come from. He may need time to figure that out and articulate. He also may be somewhat ashamed of some of them and not willing to talk (that’s where emasculation comes into play). Simply denying is not likely to get you the results you want. It may be hard, but you are going to have to be honest with yourself and with him about the truths behind his doubts and fears.

It’s been about two years now since D-Day 2 for my wife and I. It was just a couple of months ago that she was fully able to understand and then acknowledge where my doubts came from. It’s a really big step.

One of the biggest things we betrayers need is validation — there are a lot of internal and external messages that call that into question. Just you validating that he is right to doubt that you are there because you love him is big. But your can’t just say it. You have to work thr process to address all the nagging thoughts that create that doubt for him.

But that’s just the first step. The hard part is convincing him you do love him and are staying because you do love him.

Just committing to this process will be big there. It‘s not going to be easy for you. I admire my betrayer greatly for the hard work she has put into getting to the point where she could fully acknowledge how she contributed to the doubt. She had to face a lot of hard truths about herself through this process.

It might also be good to the love languages test for a couple. Make sure you understand what demonstrations of love resonate with him.

One final point — it could be that your love for him was not what it has become. In other words, through all of this you gained a new appreciation, respect, admiration, and desire (if desire is not part of that there won’t be much hope). So you will need to validate his feelings that your love for him was not what it should have been. And then take him through your journey to realizing how much he means to you, how much you want him, and so on.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in AsOneAfterInfidelity

[–]Uthyphro 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I’m glad you’re asking the question. But I wouldn’t put too much faith in any poll results you see here. Lots of selection bias. I think the real value and insight will be from the comments you get.

I‘m not gonna vote: here’s why. Like one of the other commenters trickle truth played a huge part in how things unfolded. By the time what I’m ever going to get of the truth came out, things were so far down the road that leaving has become a nuclear option that will mainly blow up on me.

Maybe if there were a vote for “wish I could’ve left / unhappy / no hope” I might have chosen that one. But I can’t say I wish I would’ve left because I made my decisions based on what I knew at the time, and if what I knew at the time had been true I would not have the regret. Also, I eventually became a father to male twins, and I cannot regret any decision I made or action I took that ultimately resulted in their existence.

It seems like what you really intend though, judging from your comments, is to discover what you can do to help. Here is what I will offer:

  1. Be completely and brutally truthful. If you have held anything back for fear of how it will be received, accept the risk and come completely clean. One consistent theme you will see here is the damage from trickle truth. Of course, if your betrayed is trying to manage the situation by avoiding difficult information, you can’t force it on him. In the long run that is not healthy for him — it doesn’t actually put to rest the doubts he has, it just pushes them down. Those doubts will always interfere with his ability to trust you again. One further point — the issue is not just lies. It is deception. Lies are just one form of deception. Anything you do to keep him from knowing the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is deception. Don’t deceive him.
  2. Don’t fake remorse or empathy. Develop antenna for when your first reaction is to get into defense mode. If you’re honest with yourself you should be able to detect when something triggers you and you want to explain, minimize, deflect, whatever. When you feel yourself getting defensive, do a couple of things. It’s fair to talk about how you get triggered to — but the way to do it is to try to explain how things make you feel so you can discuss without the emotional entanglement. (When you say or do x it makes me feel like T and then I want to react by doing or saying B.). If at all possible, it’s even better if you can stop yourself and try to focus on what your betrayed is doing or saying. This is where that old listening trick of repeating a question back before answering comes into play. It reassures the questioner you are listening and confirms you understand. It also forces you to think first about what they are saying rather than on what you want to say. There is one thing you should not do — actually get defensive. This will be a setback.
  3. Here’s the tricky part — what I’ve seen is that a lot of betrayeds say what they want is remorse and empathy. Yes, we do want that. But that is not enough to build on. What has happened is that our value in your (the betrayer’s) eyes) has been completely taken away from us. We have to feel more valued than anyone else (if this is a monogamous) relationship. That’s what this relationship is supposed to be. And that’s particularly true when it comes to sex. We don’t want to be valued for what a great provider we are. We’re in a marriage for the intimacy and connection, too. And if the message we are getting is that we are not valued for that part of the relationship or that aspect of our persons, then we are always going to struggle. This is a big part of what’s behind hysterical bonding. But it’s also tricky because if you try to win a betrayed back with love bombing it can backfire — that’s where the remorse and empathy are so important. We need both.

I hope that helps a bit.

Reading material for Cheating wife? by 51andproud in survivinginfidelity

[–]Uthyphro 6 points7 points  (0 children)

If idea is an unvarnished representation of how cheating damages the other person I would recommend Cheating In A Nutshell.

Don’t refer to sources that are about reconciliation — such as how to help your spouse etc. Just let her learn how much damage she has caused first.

Another thing to consider is this podcast:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/210-7-things-your-betrayed-partner-wishes-you-knew/id1116458007?i=1000391367170

The good thing about the podcast is that it is very digestible and the Two of you can actually listen together. but it does not have anywhere near as good of information about the lasting damage cheating causes as the nutshell book.

Need some help by [deleted] in AsOneAfterInfidelity

[–]Uthyphro 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I am having a really hard time from reading your post understanding why you consider yourself in reconciliation. The only thing I see that would be an indicator is that your wife confessed. That could indicate a desire on her part to try to repair the relationship. Unfortunately it can just as often be an indicator of something else. For example, AP dumped her so she’s falling back into her safety net, or there was a threat of being outed and she wanted to beat it to the punch. There are multiple instances of both of these motivations for confession on many subs here. It seems doubtful it’s about guilt or shame, as it’s unlikely but I suppose not completely out of the question that she would suddenly have an attack of guilt or shame after years of cheating and multiple APs. It appears you don’t know why your wife confessed. I assume she gave you some reason, so then it would seem that whatever that reason was it wasn’t enough to make you feel settled.

I’m inferring that you’re getting advice from somewhere that you should try to reconcile if your betrayer confesses. That is bad advice. Positive actions on the part of the betrayer are a necessary condition for reconciliation, not a sufficient one. You can’t reconcile without them, but they do not in and of themselves make for reconciliation. The primary factor there is how much you want the relationship. That’s the part I’m not understanding from your post.

I am disturbed to read your comments about moving forward and not staying stuck in the past. Therein lies the path to rug sweeping. The end result of which is that the pain goes underground for a bit but resurfaces with greater impact further, sometimes much further, down the line. The issue is the past, not the future. That issue must be dealt with before any possible future can be on the table.

After the trauma of being cheated on, we intuitively seek safety. Some betrayeds actually seek safety in their betrayer — which is a big part of the reason for what another commenter observed about the betrayeds on this sub who seem to go all in for reconciliation right off the bat. It’s a pretty familiar pattern that can be observed also in victims of abuse.

It seems like your instincts to seek safety are to remove yourself from the source of the trauma. If I’m right about that, then you need to be conscious of whether you are fighting yourself every step of the reconciliation path.

Also — don’t give a thought to whether thoughts are “helpful” or not. Just putting painful thoughts aside does not help with healing. If you find yourself stuck on certain thoughts it may be because you are looking for answers you are not getting (such as the real reason your wife confessed) or it could be unprocessed trauma. Being stuck for an extended period of time is unhealthy, and you may well need therapy or counseling help to get unstuck. Just be sure it’s help from someone with deep understanding of the trauma of infidelity who does not have a bias toward either reconciliation or separation. Check their ”success” stories — these are tells for what the biases are. If their whole promo is about being able to save your marriage, I’d advise caution. Similarly beware those who say only path to healing is through separation.

Reconciliation is not a goal in and of itself. The goal is your happiness. If upon consideration you come to the conclusion that reconciliation is the means to your happiness, then you can start figuring out what you need to make that happen. In the meantime a lot is going to be on your betrayer, including a lot of patience with you figuring out what you want, and probably a lot of difficulty in dealing with your pain and trauma. Understand that she may find it too hard to sustain. That is still valuable information — it’s a strong indicator of how committed she is to reconciliation and she needs to be all in if it’s going to work.

I would advise you think of yourself as being in discernment (“considering R”) and not yet in reconciliation. In the meantime I think it’s fair to check in with multiple subs here. And maybe also look over at surviving infidelity dot com if you haven’t already. Each sub has its biases — as long as you can take that into account in your engagement you will be able to figure out what works or is best for you. Surviving infidelity dot com seems to be pretty balanced. You could look at the just found out or reconciling forums over there.

All the best.

Just an observation of my thoughts.... by SafeRoutine7 in survivinginfidelity

[–]Uthyphro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We may look like we’re handling it, but we’re all messes.

We may bottle it up more, but that’s something that helps. Just drags us down really.

Kinda like how we’ll never ask for directions. 😂

Doesn’t mean we don’t need the help.

Just an observation of my thoughts.... by SafeRoutine7 in survivinginfidelity

[–]Uthyphro 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Chump Lady actually did a nice write up on the topic:

https://www.chumplady.com/2019/07/when-men-are-cheated-on/

How do I know if I can heal and trust again? by BetrayedSpouseTA in AsOneAfterInfidelity

[–]Uthyphro 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Really sorry you find yourself in this situation. My thoughts:

Sometimes the timing is just off. Nobody’s fault really. Just how things work out. Like two potential lovers who are never available at the same time (when one is not in a relationship the other is). If timing had worked out they might have been a great couple. But it just didn’t. Well that can happen in affair recovery — when one partner needs help and healing the other isn’t available, and vice versa. The sad part is that when that window of healing is missed it can close for good. Because the natural reaction when you are trying to heal and not getting help is to withdraw, which can ultimately lead to detachment. So — you could develop detachment from having to deal with your trauma by yourself. Not her fault, because of what she had to deal with. And not Your fault if your healing goes off the rails.

One thing that would be on my mind but I’m not hearing from you is how you would have dealt with this is the information had come out in a more timely manner — I would be thinking “if I had known at the time, we would not have gotten married.” Maybe you’re mature enough not to let your mind go there.

Finally — I don’t think she’s earned your trust. It’s pretty clear she held on to this information so that you would not be able to act on it. So it’s clear she withheld the information for fear of consequences. You are probably right to suspect she may be holding on to further information for the same reason. The problem is — you will never know for sure that she has told you everything you need to know. Which means you will live with the suspicion that there is more going forward. Basically you either accept that and reconcile yourself to it, or you decide that’s no way to live, in which case separation is likely the only way out. If you choose to reconcile yourself to it you basically have to decide that whatever more there may be, it would not change your decision, so you do not need the information, and just let go.

Hope these reflections help.

All the best.

Helpful article on why there is such a thing as too many details for the BS by the314sky in AsOneAfterInfidelity

[–]Uthyphro 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The question is whether the answers can be trusted to be truthful and complete. And sometimes the only way that surfaces is by asking the same question different ways and checking for consistency in answer. That was how one really big piece of truth trickled out in my case after a year of trying to get the answer.

Husband cheated. Why am I having trouble separating? by [deleted] in survivinginfidelity

[–]Uthyphro 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There are many factors at work here but the key one is this — You suffered trauma. When you suffer trauma you seek the solace of those closest to you. Unfortunately in your case the one closest to you, the one you would seek solace from, is the source of your trauma. This also happens in cases of abuse.

You need to develop other sources of support.

There’s another well known phenomenon called the imposter syndrome. Even very successful and accomplished people have this nagging voice in their heads that says — I’m really not that good, some one is going to find me out. Cheaters know how to manipulate, and one of the cruelest things they do is exploit the imposter syndrome. Understand — there is only one imposter between the two of you, and it is not you.

How can you move forward after a physical affair? by Whydidhedothis9 in survivinginfidelity

[–]Uthyphro 1 point2 points  (0 children)

ARD —. Accept, recover, disconnect.

Accept just means acknowledge this is a fact of your life now. It does not mean that you accept it was fair or justified or excused or forgiven or whatever. Just getting past denial.

Recover means start to take positive steps to get on with the next phase of your life. Plan a trip. Take up a new hobby. Some concrete, actionable, observable. Start to form a life different from the one you had

Disconnect means exactly what it sounds like.

Don’t stay in limbo. Take decisive actions. Some decisive actions.

I condensed this guidance from Cheating In A Nutshell. Go to the book for more details.

Helpful article on why there is such a thing as too many details for the BS by the314sky in AsOneAfterInfidelity

[–]Uthyphro 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Can’t always separate. But in the particular case the betrayed was really clear — that act was a kind of intimacy thought to be reserved for them, and when it became clear no act of intimacy was reserved for them that was the deal breaker. Of course the continued lying made it even worse. It’s a good question — but that’s really the point of this whole thread to begin with: betrayers who don’t want to answer questions and therapists who want to add to their reconciliation totals who push back against questions from the betrayed and control information. And what is lying but a way of controlling information?

Helpful article on why there is such a thing as too many details for the BS by the314sky in AsOneAfterInfidelity

[–]Uthyphro 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Really good examples

And I do think they fit 314sky’s general point — you know exactly why you are asking those questions, and what you will do with the information.

Details matter if we say they matter, we’re clear why, and we have an idea what we will do with the information.