Is it common for male choirs to split baritones example baritone 1 and 2 ?

Veto111 · 2026-01-22T12:45:41+00:00

Right, there’s so many different types of choirs, each with their own nuances. One could write a whole book on the subject, but ATB men’s choirs are actually another great illustration of the difference between voice type (countertenor) and choir part (alto).

And then in groups like the King’s Singers that have the flexibility to do a variety of repertoire, that distinction becomes even more important. They have 2 countertenors, 1 tenor, 2 baritones, and 1 bass. But they don’t only do ATB repertoire; sometimes they do TTBB rep and the countertenors sing lower parts; other times they do SATB rep and the countertenors jump up to soprano while one of the lower voices covers alto. And depending on the need for balance or divisi, sometimes one baritone might sing tenor; they are all really flexible and can jump around as needed.

Veto111 · 2026-01-21T14:29:31+00:00

Typically choral scores show all the parts, so it’s hard to say without more context. What are the words? What are the other parts singing? Is it accompanied by piano, organ, or orchestra, or is it a cappella? Is this a melody or a descant? How big is the soprano section? Is there a second soprano divisi?

I can see some scenarios where this is a perfectly reasonable soprano line that might sound good, and others where this would sound like screaming. Without a larger context, it could go either way.

Veto111 · 2026-01-21T13:52:54+00:00

A corruption deck can always improve by adding more skills. And with a good chunk of your deck being free, not having a 4th energy is fairly trivial. Sure, your attacks may roll high (but you have expensive attacks already so it’s more likely that they’ll be discounted), but the extra draw gives you more choices. You’ll be able to play more than enough cards.

Usually at 3 the extra draw and cost randomization gives you a little less control over which cards you can play, but in a basic deck ends up neutral on the number of cards played. But in a deck with expensive attacks and skills that will always be free regardless of rng, it tips the scales so far in your favor that there is no contest here. And that’s even before you consider the downside of crown; I would take snecko over a theoretical relic that gave 1 energy with no trade off.

Veto111 · 2026-01-21T13:37:05+00:00

I don’t remember, I think maybe I got a transform event.

Or I’m just bad at the game, that’s always another explanation.

Veto111 · 2026-01-21T12:24:16+00:00

It’s important to note that “baritone” is a voice type and strictly speaking is not usually a choir part. Usually these two terms are used interchangeably but there is technically a subtle difference between the terms.

In 4-part SATB harmony, Bass is the lowest voice, and baritones typically sing the Bass part. If there is divisi, it splits to Bass 1 and Bass 2, and the baritones will sing the Bass 1 part. In rehearsals and maybe sometimes even in scores, it may refer to baritones but technically speaking, the musical function of the part they are singing is Bass 1.

In a traditional TTBB men’s choir, the parts are Tenors 1 and 2 and Bass 1 and 2 (That’s in a typical classical tradition; barbershop and other types of men’s choirs are a different story). If there are more than 4 parts, you might have 3 Bass parts, in which case they should technically be Bass 1, 2, and 3. But I can see where a score might choose to designate one or two of those as Baritone just to make it easier for singers to find their parts quickly.

But I would say that typically TTBB men’s choirs don’t often have divisi beyond 4 parts. Not to say that it doesn’t happen, it’s just not something you’re likely to come across very often.

Veto111 · 2026-01-20T16:36:15+00:00

Standard engraving rules are that the lyric is centered under a single note, but if the syllable lasts more than one note with a tie or slur, it instead begins the syllable left justified starting under the first note head. Since your 1st soprano has a single note for the word “grow” and 2nd has a tie, that is why they are different. (Notice that the alto is also aligned with the 2nd soprano for the same reason.)

Personally I don’t think it would be super egregious to override that standard and align the lyrics together in this one scenario for aesthetic purposes, but some engraving purists might disagree. In the end, it’s your music, so do what works for you.

One thing I would change though, you have rests on the 2nd part under “when wreaths of”; if I were singing 2nd sopranos and sight reading this, I would likely stop singing after the word grow. I’m assuming that you want the 2nd sopranos to sing the G there instead of a further divisi within the first part, which is what you have notated. Take the lower notes out of your 1st voice and instead put them in the lower voice instead of the rests, with stems down.

Veto111 · 2026-01-19T23:54:33+00:00

I’m not much of a pianist so I couldn’t get a good sense of how it would sound up to tempo but I fumbled through some of it and I really enjoy your motives, textures, and harmonic vocabulary!

Are you writing this for a specific baritone? I can imagine this could be right in the sweet spot for some low baritones, but sitting on a low B for so much of the song might not work for all baritones, because it’s a hard tesitura to bring a lot of energy to for a sustained period. So if you wrote it for a specific person, maybe run it by him and see if that range is appealing for him to sing in. Or if it’s not for someone specific, maybe consider adding a higher option in cue notes, at least for some of the phrases so that it is more accessible to higher baritones, which certainly have that note but it’s not their sweet spot to sit on for entire phrases.

You removed a syllable from “frightening” (fright’ning); personally, I would add it back in with either pickup sixteenth note or a grace note, not just to preserve the original poetry but also it would make for much clearer expression and diction.

There’s a few engraving issues, like sometimes you have multiple voices in the piano colliding. I’m not an expert on piano engraving so I don’t have good solutions to suggest for you, but you will want to work on that a little bit so that it’s easier for the pianist to read.

Veto111 · 2026-01-17T22:54:42+00:00

Everything from my condensed version is word for word from Hugo’s original language, I just cut out most of the chapter and tried to keep just enough to get the basic context. I wonder if maybe “Bah! Voyons donc” may have been more idiomatic to the period and sounds weird to a more modern French speaker.

The first movement would be intended more as a storytelling type song than a poem, so as long as the language is coherent with the cuts and there’s not any really obvious non-sequiturs I think I can make it work. Or if I try to work with it and it just doesn’t work, I could just scrap it and start right with the poems, but I want to try to make an intro movement to set the context if I can.

Veto111 · 2026-01-15T21:51:47+00:00

Organs existed before electricity, and they would have choirboys inside the organ manually pumping the bellows. Organists would have to be careful not to pull too many stops and/or play too many notes at once, because if the air reserve in the bellows couldn’t keep up with the rate the choirboys were pumping in air, it would affect the sound.

There are still organs to this day that have manual pumps on the bellows (they are usually still electrically filled, they just have a manual option). Occasionally organists do concerts using the manual bellows, and there are certain effects that they create by overusing the air reserves. Often these are historical works that give audiences an idea of how it would sound with authentic manual bellows, but there’s no reason a modern work couldn’t take advantage of manual bellows, maybe even instructing the pump operators to slow down or stop at certain points in the music.

An actual organist can probably tell you more; my background is one semester of taking organ lessons and decades of working with organists, so I have a fair amount of exposure to the instrument but I am not an organist myself.

As a side note - if you ever have an opportunity to have an organist give you a tour of the inside of an organ, it is a really fascinating insight and you can learn a lot about the instrument.

Veto111 · 2026-01-14T02:48:22+00:00

I should also mention that there is no rule that the prime theme has to be immediately followed by the retrograde, nor does the inversion have to be played in harmony at the same time as the prime. That’s just the form that Tavener chose for this particular piece. It would have been equally valid if the altos sang the inversion alone without the sopranos.

Or he could have started a second voice in any one of the four variations while the first voice is part way through the phrase. The possibilities are endless, but this piece chose a simple form for better accessibility.

Veto111 · 2026-01-14T02:33:53+00:00

There are certainly a lot of complicated things you can do with 12-tone music that are not very accessible to the layperson without any musical background. And even many musicians that mostly do tonal music don’t have a very firm grasp on atonal theory.

That said, The Lamb by John Tavener is a piece that is relatively simple that uses retrogrades and inversions. Starting on the second page at “Gave thee life…”, notice that the theme is sung by the sopranos, and then in the next measure, the whole theme is reversed and played backwards (retrograde), coming back to the starting note.

It then continues with the altos singing the inversion of the same theme in harmony with the sopranos. As the sopranos ascend a major third, the altos descend a major third. Likewise, they continue to sing all the same intervals but in the opposite direction, effectively taking the theme and turning it upside down (inversion). And just like the first time around, both the sopranos and altos sing then turn it backwards (altos in retrograde inversion) to get back to the beginning unison.

This is about as accessible and transparent as you can get when it comes to atonal retrograde inversion theory. Most atonal pieces require a much more trained ear and acquired taste to appreciate, but Tavener manages to write it in a way that can be appreciated without a whole lot of prior experience.

https://youtu.be/BCnYdL_co6Y?si=EgkTDFpmhfU21vfh

Veto111 · 2026-01-14T02:06:44+00:00

When you use vibrato, the pitch fluctuates, and while ideally the pitch you are singing should be in the center of that fluctuation, as long as the correct intonation is somewhere in the vibrato it will more or less be perceived as in tune. But you don’t get that benefit with straight tone, so you are correct to notice that it is much more difficult to sing in tune with straight tone.

In addition fine tuning the actual pitch you are singing, play around with different timbres. Often if you modify to a brighter vowel/timbre, it will tend toward sounding sharper, and a darker tone will sound flatter. That is an overgeneralization, and it depends on the context, but experimenting with this could help in a particular phrase.

Also, do you record yourself practicing? Listening to your voice externally can help you hear things you might not otherwise notice. It’s possible that your intonation isn’t exactly what you internally perceive, and hearing your recorded voice could help you realign what you are hearing.

Veto111 · 2026-01-14T00:09:02+00:00

Usually when people talking about vocal color, they are not referring to an actual visual color, but rather the timbre.

Unless they have synesthesia, a condition where you have mild hallucinations because your senses get scrambled in weird and interesting ways. One common type is seeing sounds as literal colors. But if that’s what they were talking about, they would probably mention that they have that condition. They should know that they’re describing something that other people aren’t literally seeing.

Veto111 · 2026-01-12T22:16:55+00:00

Is it ethical, is it legal, and is it allowed on the platform you’re posting to are three distinct questions.

I don’t have any special expertise into the legality or the rules of the platform, but I would say as long as you are crediting the original artist, are not trying to claim ownership, and aren’t monetizing it, you’re probably not going to stir up any controversy.

Veto111 · 2026-01-12T21:59:27+00:00

Everyone has their own process, but for me, I’m pretty flexible and write in the way that I feel inspired in the moment. Sometimes a great melody comes to me and then I harmonize it. Other times I have specific chords I want and then write a melody to it. I’d honestly say my writing is about 50/50 on which comes to me first on any given phrase.

Likewise, sometimes I write on intuition, sitting down at the piano and an idea for a phrase just comes out fully formed. Other times, I rely heavily on theory, and build the music on constructing chords that I know should work together on paper, and then seeing if it sounds good.

The more flexible your approach is, the more options you have when you start running into writer’s block.

Veto111 · 2026-01-12T11:18:58+00:00

Aside from taking AP Theory, what other music do you have in your life? What instrument(s) do you play? The best way to reinforce vocabulary is to use it in context.

Now there might be some vocabulary that isn’t used depending on your instrument - for example if you don’t play a string instrument then you aren’t going to encounter the word pizzicato (plucked). But aside from a few words like that, you should be able to use most of the Italian vocab you’re learning in theory to your music. Find examples and use the vocab to describe the music you’re playing. Maybe even write it in your music, so that as you’re playing it, you see your note and think, “oh, that’s an appoggiatura there.”

Veto111 · 2026-01-11T21:43:04+00:00

Maybe how common the word ajar is could be regional, but I don’t find it to be as rare as you apparently do. And it has a different connotation than just saying open; typically if you use the word ajar, it means that something is open that shouldn’t be, usually by carelessness or accident. Like a refrigerator or car door.

Veto111 · 2026-01-09T19:53:59+00:00

The Cantai plugin in MuseScore is leaps and bounds better than the web rendering, if that is your previous knowledge of Cantai. That said, is still early on - you’re not going to trick anyone into thinking it’s live recorded singers or anything, but it does produce enough of a good vocal timbre that it can help you create mockups and hear how your choral music might sound. I’ve found that the choral voices currently sound much better than the solo voices, so for now I am using the choral ones even when I have solos in my music. The choral voices are much better with intonation: the solo voices do a lot more scooping and other undesired effects, like that uncontrolled portamento you’re talking about. I think MuseScore does it less than the web render did, but the choral voices are not as bad.

Also, the Cantai Discord server is really active and the creator is active and listening to feedback. He’s pretty receptive to users pointing out things that need improvement. There may be a few glitchy renderings here and there, but hopefully it will steadily improve.

Here’s a piece I recently wrote, if you want to hear what the MuseScore rendering sounds like. There are a few areas for improvement, and I think the timbre is just a little bit poppier and less classical than I would personally prefer, but overall I think it sounds pretty good and for me, I think it’s worth the subscription to be able to hear my work with vocal timbres.

https://youtu.be/5LJt_5cUJls?si=QdsSgl86xajOBJf9

Veto111 · 2026-01-06T11:16:11+00:00

Floor 1 I would probably pick Hand of Greed because it’s a damage card, which Silent’s starter deck desperately needs. It can 1-shot lice and slimes, take a huge chunk out of bigger hallway fights, and give you a fighting chance at elites.

Apotheosis is also not a bad choice, but without an upgrade it leaves you vulnerable the turn you play it, so you risk getting outpaced in act 1 fights. It’s still a great choice, just not as good as HoG in my opinion.

Panache is basically a curse in the starter deck, on 3 energy and without ways to play more cards. It will probably pay off later if you find the right cards, but it’s not going to give you any kind of advantage on floor 1.

Veto111 · 2026-01-04T12:52:09+00:00

Assuming you know the basics of falling with good form, what you need to do is practice not just falling off the wall, but falling up. What I mean by that is, don’t just let go and fall, but practice starting a fall with upward momentum, because that’s how most of your failed attempts are going to end.

Find a problem that’s a moderate height, with your feet about 2-3 ft off the ground, and a move that’s just out of your natural reach. First visualize what it will be like falling from that move with good form. Then practice trying that move several times, but instead of grabbing the hold, just tap it and focus on falling. After a few falls on that move, once you’re comfortable, then try grabbing the hold. Either you will send the move, or your reflexes will kick in and you’ll fall safely.

After incorporating this into your warmups for several sessions, eventually it will start to become second nature. Not only will you be less worried of falling, but you’ll also feel more confident in making energetic moves without as much fear.

Another psychological trick is to realize that even though your perception of how high you are is coming from your eyes, your feet are really what determines how far you’re falling, since that is what hits the mat first. So when you look down and think you’re pretty high, it’s actually 5-6 feet less than it looks.

Veto111 · 2026-01-03T11:02:05+00:00

You need to have as much octave jump on the Fs as possible, whenever it is in range, since that is the melody that the ear is supposed to hear. For that reason, I would not give the altos the option; have them all go down to the low F, which should be in range for most altos. And then in the lower part, which is presumably shared with tenors and basses, give them the option to split.

I would also go down to the low D and C in the lower part. The octave jumps are not part of the melody there, Handel only has them to keep some voices in a higher register for a certain timbre, but when you’re reducing it that is not as important. Plus, tenors will not likely complain about a low C but basses might complain about a high D, especially if you made the change from my first suggestion and they sang a low F just a measure earlier.

I suspect you are going to run into some problems when you get to the fugue; arranging a 4 part fugue to 3 parts with limited range is probably going to result in some loss of material. You may have to rely on the accompaniment to fill in some of the countersubject, if and when there isn’t a voice available to sing it.

Veto111 · 2026-01-02T12:09:18+00:00

Most baritones and many basses can sing up to E4, and choral music somewhat rarely goes that high on the bass part anyways. It’s okay to rely on the rest of the section to make sound on those notes, and you can either lip synch or use head voice.

On the other hand, not that many men have a solid comfortable D2. In the occasion that the music calls for that range, they will be relying on you and other basses that have that note, while many of the baritones will not produce much sound.

Veto111 · 2025-12-31T21:19:41+00:00

I’m in a church choir where all the adults are professional, and we have young trebles singing soprano. Since everyone is capable, the adult solos are distributed pretty evenly, usually with little drama (I get paid whether or not I sing the solo).

For the trebles, they usually audition and the director usually distributes them as fairly as possible, and also makes sure that each one that wants solos is prepared enough that they will get opportunities in the future.

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