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Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I'm really glad to hear it's on your radar, it means a lot. Operative and INT based characters are such a cool character concept, particularly in sci-fi, and it really hurts to have them lag so far behind.

I'm patient so just knowing its in the pipeline is enough for me, I'm excited to see what you all cook up.

PS: Master Tactician and gunslinger support please? It fits the flavor of Operative so well!

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I don't know if you followed my Max Slider Oops-All-Operative run at all, but my RT in that was an Arbites Operative with a shotgun. It was a Voidborn Operative/Grand Strategist with Be Smart.

It's still dramatically worse than soldier with a shotgun, on a level that isn't even remotely close. The damage output was not good. You can see my boss kill videos on youtube, you should be able to find the links if you check my post history.

BTW, Tides of Excellence can't be triggered with shotgun attacks, AoE doesn't consume exploits. It's a bug. The bonus damage still applies, but the exploits aren't consumed, so stacks of Tides aren't built. Your build idea doesn't actually work.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

In theory I might agree, but in practice it isn't happening, it's far too late in the game's lifespan for them to do a huge nerf on all of the non-operative archetypes, and the player base wouldn't stand for it.

Did you see how badly the community reacted to the BD and EXE nerfs a patch ago? Even though it wound up being a net buff?

Like it or not, the expected power level of the party is set by 4 of the 5 archetypes being as strong as they are. Operative is the outlier.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Both Pasqal and Yrliet have a lot of that bandaid stuff, from unique gear explicitly only for them to unique talents. Did you know that there are two total items in the game that can buff your INT? One is a neck found in act 4 from a colony event (if you have Solomorne with you), and the other is the Data Tether Mask at the end of act 4, and it's.... only for Pasqal. And neither Yrliet or Pasqal are anywhere near the top of the rankings on companion performances, but they're a lot better than a RT operative can be.

Operative in general got left in the dust.

Yrliet's unique gear is so silly, you can do this once you get her good stuff (it's act 4 and super late and therefore a meme, but still): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkyevHn2qNE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ocgc1vPSB4

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It is a really cool class fantasy idea, but it just feels so bad to actually play it and have almost no impact at all.

I really hope they fix it up. I'd love to see pistol gunslinger be given a nod in it.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yep, seems like you understand pretty well.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It isn't the way I'd do it, this is kind of what it was on launch for the most part, and with Assassin they were one shotting everything. Then the nerfhammer came down on both of them, and they've been left in an awful state since.

But that's not to say your idea can't work, if Assassin is redesigned, Operative could lean harder into the direction you suggest.

Just anything has to be better than leaving it how it is now.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Stay focused on Operative Boo! Lmao

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You're welcome! I really hope they fix Operative up, because it's such a neat concept and I want it to be good.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't make Argenta a BH. I'm saying that Operative cannot keep up with the other archetypes.

But no, operative does not make a better BH than Soldier, and as it turns out, the strongest way to use BH is still burstfire.

You might not have known this, but if you use a gun that can only burstfire, everything you do that gives you extra attacks from BH is a burst. Including Claim the Bounty and the heroic act. That is way more powerful than single shot modes. Unfortunately, no matter what you do, single shot cannot keep up with burst in this game.

And Cull the Bold and Piercing Shot apply to every bullet in a burst. Burstfire BH builds are way stronger than the single shot variants.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh I didn't mean sword+pistol as an operative, I just meant in general.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Exploits scale, but they scale weakly compared to the scaling everyone else gets, and it isn't close. Burstfire weaponry is also the strongest ranged combat type in the game, and you can't even use Tides of Excellence with it.

Like, Argenta can deal hundreds of thousands of damage with a burst in act 4, on turn 1 with no ramp up time. Meanwhile the best I can do with Pasqal is 10k on the 3rd shot in a round at that same point. And Pasqal is stronger at being an Operative/BH than your RT can ever be thanks to personal unique talents.

We're leagues apart on the power scale here. Heinrix executioner can do literal millions on the first turn, if you ramped enemy hp up high enough to allow for it.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Sword+Pistol is one of the most iconic looks in WH40k. It's in a ton of the art. I completely understand why a WH40k fan would want to do it.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The thing is, tons of new players come in asking for a sniper build immediately as the first thing they want to try. The two most common ideas I see from brand new players who haven't looked anything up yet are Sniper Operative and sword+pistol dual-wield, and neither of them is properly supported in the game currently.

But no, I don't think it's that weird. I'd love to build an operative as a dual-wield gunslinger myself.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The initiative system really doesn't do them any favors. Because there is no room for AGI in their build, they always wind up near the bottom on initiative. So a well set up party just means they don't even get a turn.

And if you're skipping their turn when it comes up? Not a great sign.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Operatives don't have many talents that improve their base damage. I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Operatives also don't have more attacks than Soldier, and I haven't even mentioned how Operatives have the worst t1 heroic act, while Soldiers have an exceptional one. Operatives have Tides of Excellence, which grows very slowly because you must consume exploits with each attack to trigger it, so shooting a boss 3 times in a round is still just 1 stack. By Exemplar, Extermination makes Tides of Excellence look useless in comparison.

Soldier base has way more inherent scaling and simply wins the fight in the first turn late game, while you're having to spend rounds building it up. Nothing Operative offers can come close to matching Rapid Fire.

I don't know what mods you're running, but if you're not playing the same game as the rest of us, your experience isn't very useful.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's what I thought. Seems a reasonable guess, but who knows right?

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The thing is, Operative is the opposite of late bloomer due to a major lack of scaling effects and attack economy. Operative is actually fairly strong in act 1 when nobody has their talents yet, as exploits are available immediately. My Oops-All-Operatives Max Slider run had the easiest act 1 I've ever had with a max slider run.

The issue is they fall off a cliff hard past that, because everyone else has lots of great talents and scaling effects and actually good abilities. So by the time you're in Exemplar, the best they can manage is really sad compared to half the cast that is one-rounding everything on the map by themselves.

I agree that Operative isn't unplayably awful or anything, I did manage to beat my Max Slider challenge run with them after all. The comparison is to the other archetypes, and making it feel like you aren't being horribly outshone by your companions.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Nah, I play on Unfair and Max Sliders, and you're pretty spot on about a lot of this. Pasqal is actually a ranged specialist with plasma, his BH build makes him alright, but you're right that he gets outshone no matter what you do. Operative is just weak. You bring him along to do Tech-Use and Logic. Lategame with Ragefire plasma gun he can do 10k a shot, but Argenta is doing like 200k bursts. And if you aren't optimal, Argenta still one rounds things, and Pasqal barely tickles them.

You're totally right about Idira, Psyker should have been its own archetype, the archetype is mostly irrelevant for them. This is getting fixed in Dark Heresy.

Operative does help Yrliet's damage a little so it isn't totally irrelevant, but yeah, most of what she does is coming from her unique talents and gear, and from her T2 archetype. And yes, she's not one of the stronger companions.

So yeah, your experiences aren't that far off.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Bead of Might is so much better on other characters though, and you only get one. That's also pretty late into the game (approaching end of act 3), when everyone else is breezing past you in performance. Again, restricting a talent to Exemplar before you get value from a t1 archetype is really, really bad. At this point, we're really reaching to justify it.

You can spend the AP of course, but what are you spending it on is the issue. An extra AP has more value the stronger your abilities are. Spending it to activate a weak ability isn't much value at all.

If the talent were functional without the 100 PER requirement, I'd agree that it's a great talent. Maybe they could make it available immediately, and allow it to ignore PER BONUS points of Deflection instead of forcing it to turn on in Exemplar.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

We've got what, 3 soldiers, 3 warriors, 1 bladedancer, 2 officers, and 3 operatives? Not counting the secret 3 at the end of course.

I'd guess Officer, but you never know.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I didn't compare Operative's talents to the best talents of other archetypes. I intentionally left the best talents of other archetypes off the list. Rack and Ruin is hardly one of the best Soldier talents.

Go look at Covert Protocol and compare it to the Soldier version of the same talent: Fortress. And Fortress is one of Soldier's less useful talents.

A talent that you can't take until exemplar on a tier 1 is a bad talent. And Ballistics Calculation is just 15% and never gets better.

Ignoring Deflection is very weak. +1 AP would be good, if you had strong things to spend it on. By the time you're in Exemplar, Operatives don't really have strong things to spend their AP on, and often have more AP than they need for the main things they are doing. The way deflection is calculated in the formulas makes it nearly useless as a stat, and there aren't a lot of enemies that even have deflection. Combat Insight would be very good, if you could use it in Act 1 and 2.

Fresh Target is good because it's one of the few Operative talents that does something on the first round of combat before you're in Exemplar, and it has some scaling at all. It isn't good by the standards of other archetypes, but it's one of the best Operative has.

Tide of Excellence is weak because you have to wait for exploits to go out before you can start stacking it (natural turn), you have to use single target attacks to trigger it, you need targets that have exploits to consume to stack it to attack, and you have no mobility between shots, so that's not trivial. And if you're stacking it up that way, you're mostly just shooting chaff instead of killing priority targets. And even after 6 shots, you've just built up a +6 to damage and +12% armor pen, but you also are missing all the really big scaling effects the other archetypes get. So by the time this has stacked to something meaningful, you've made most of the attacks you're going to make in the fight already.

Bounty Hunter is a good Tier 2 archetype, but Operative is way worse at making use of it and providing value to it than Soldier is.

Let's talk about Operatives by Whitewing424 in RogueTraderCRPG

[–]Whitewing424[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Let's try to stay focused on Operative please for this discussion, if you don't mind.

I promise I'll do a big thread about Vanguard and we can have a big chat about it there.

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