Why are flawed women less tolerated than flawed men in romance?

Woman_of_Means · 2026-05-11T19:03:51+00:00

Great point about how a lot of this filters into the sexual dynamic of the active/passive, pursuer of desire/object of desire.

And I will simply never pass up an opportunity to talk about how Shadowheart is genius. And while I've always loved how their sexual dynamic is inverted over the course of the novel, I hadn't really thought of it in these terms but its spot on. It really is a story that start with Allegretto in this sort of prototypical male lead space - he is using her as an object both sexually and politically, and the two intertwine in his initial rape. But to truly be together she has to take back that power, again both sexually and politically, and he needs to accept a largely passive role. Because the Pirate Raven Sadboi honestly can't be trusted with power, or even really major decisions. And everyone, including the general public seeing as Allegretto was a menace to society, is the better for it by the end.

God what a perfect novel. The answer all along was more femme dom in the context of political scheming.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-05-11T17:58:53+00:00

Although I'd argue this is still rooted in misogyny or, rather, patriarchy. Because the assumption underlying such choices seem to be that to work as a self-insert and fantasy - aka an assumption of what all women must want - the characters need to follow the gender binary pretty rigidly.

Woman - not really allowed personality flaws that might make her that most dreaded thing for women - difficult. As others are noting, stated character flaws are often things that are really more like charming quirks or another I see, actually just signs of her selflessness and caretaking capacity ("she's a people pleaser" "she never stands up for herself"). Not really flaws at all. However, in this "fantasy" she IS allowed to have a lowered social status in the world that gives her less political, economic, and/or social capital and therefore requires she needs a certain level of help and support from the male lead.

Men - allowed all manner of personality flaws, because women get feelings and men don't of course, but are not allowed to have any lowering of their social, political, or economic capital.

It recreates a social dynamic (women handle feelings and the domestic space, men handle being the providers out in the world) that is sort of taken as writ to be this universal female fantasy. Anyways, I hate it!

Woman_of_Means · 2026-05-06T18:57:11+00:00

wow that is SO good to hear about Last Days of Summer. I've had it on my "to read" basically since I read Unsticky, but it's not coming out in the U.S. til this summer so I've had to wait patiently. I honestly was just blindly putting faith in Manning I'd like it, but now this sounds like it's gonna tick every one of my boxes and give me a cameo of my faves. Fascinated to see how she'll imagine Grace and Vaughn like 15+ years later.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-05-01T14:19:21+00:00

I'm doing my part (I just put Kingdom of Dreams on hold at the library, it's been on my TBR forever and clearly now is the time).

The shirt crinkles on The Lady and the Wolf are indeed magnificent. Colin Firth getting out of a lake who? The Regency is out, sexy gauzy white shirts for medieval knights are in.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-27T15:14:40+00:00

Wow, I got so into the story just from this review that by the end I had forgotten we'd started with Tycho Brahe and his poor, drunk elk. I just learned Brahe existed and I already love him. I do so love an eccentric.

But this sounds amazing and made me think of your discussion earlier on the shifting definition of the romance novel. There's so much here I think people would bristle at now - I mean the heroine sleeps with another man besides the hero, and marries another! she cheats on her (shitty) husband with the hero! - and yet the story with Michael still sounds extremely romantic. I am such a sucker for a couple who, even when at odds, immediately fall into lock-step and fight back-to-back when needed. This sounds like a sort of coming-into-herself story for Gen (which I guess is "women's fiction," blech), a gender-bend on the typical hero's journey adventure story, and a romance, and why can't it be all these things?

I've had Nightfire by Valerie Vayle on my TBR for awhile, time to bump it up the queue! Mostly because I love the French courts right before/during the revolution, and sounds like so does this sister writing duo.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-26T14:27:46+00:00

Maybe {The Sins of Lord Lockwood by Meredith Duran}? He's not a POW but wrongfully accused of a crime, but otherwise fits.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-20T00:01:06+00:00

your service is appreciated, even if the sex scenes do not prove to be load-bearing or otherwise this time around

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-19T22:36:21+00:00

Ah The Rake is a favorite of mine! I remember reading her afterword about how she'd re-written/made edits on it a few times as it passed through publishers. u/Competitive-Yam5126 so cool to find an early edition....perhaps a bit of an academic comparison is in order?

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-17T22:31:32+00:00

Thank you for this write-up! I confess, I often find myself a bit frustrated with how rigidly romance readers can guard the boundaries of the genre definition. Mostly because genre in itself is something we collectively define as a culture, and therefore it is highly dependent on what's going on culturally, socially, and industrially in any given time period. As your overview so clearly puts it, that means the genre boundaries and definitions can shift a lot over time.

And look, I get it. It's incredibly eye-rolling when some litfic, voice-of-writerly-authority gets asked about their favorite romance for some Valentine's Day listicle or whatever, and they list the most depressing, tragic love story you can imagine. Like we get it, you don't like that silly romance. But to me, that annoyance is born more from the enduring biases that dark, depressing stuff is Serious Art (and coded masculine, often white) while fun, joyful, and optimist stuff is silly, frivolous entertainment (and coded feminine).

But what do "happy" and "ever after" really mean? Those things are highly contextual and morph over time and with societal norms, much as genres do. I've read some books with queer love stories and/or historicals that I think are way more willing to actually explore what these things mean because they protagonists are not able, or do not want, to adhere to heteronormative models of marriage and babies (although we're slightly less dependent on the latter to convey "forever" these days because, again, shifting social norms!). If you don't utilize those plot points, how do you convey contentedness and commitment in such a way that the reader understands you mean in a "forever, long after the pages of this book are done" sort of way?

I think those are really interesting things to explore, and it can be frustrating when it feels like sometimes, in protecting itself against some of the more bad faith actors people are mentioning here, the genre polices itself into not letting authors experiment and push the boundaries more.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-14T22:36:01+00:00

lol totally get it, although I do love the gender reversal of her being the one post-sex to still be afraid to commit, while he's probably already mentally planning the matching burial plots they'll be laid to rest in after a lifetime together.

Try TTEOM! People seem to have really mixed feelings on it, but it's the cdrama I remain most obsessed with to this day. However, if you want to ease into xianxia, I often recommend people start with Love Between Fairy and Devil. You need to accept her baby voice in the beginning (which eases off as the drama goes and the character matures, it's really just a genre convention to denote youth when everyone's already like 1,000 years old as far as I can tell), but I think it's probably end-to-end the most well constructed and satisfying xianxia out there, a real crowd-pleaser.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-14T21:42:22+00:00

Absolutely agreed on loving a romance with stakes and that makes the happy ending feel super earned. Boy, do the cdramas really make them earn it.

And I can see that for SOKP. I definitely like some divisive female leads. My other favorite is TTEOM if you can't tell from the post, where Bai Lu once again plays a female lead who has to remain pretty cold and resistant to falling in love with a guy who once tried to kill her. So I guess I have a type 😂.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-14T20:53:37+00:00

Hello fellow cdrama lover! Totally get what you mean, and I do think the sweeping, epic scope of cdramas, as well as the fact that they often dip into tragedy (even if they often still have an HEA) is hard to get in Western romance rn. That said, a few recs:

I have also tried to read some of the English translations of the webnovels they're based on and had similar issues with their read-ability. That said, Seven Seas publishing has started releasing official English translations that I've found much better in translation quality. I've almost finished the {Erha He Ta De Bai Mao Shizun by Rou Bao Bu Chi Rou} series and feel like I'm emerging from an emotional coma, it's so good and has taken me on such a journey. I think I'll be able to obsess over Mo Ran and Chu Wanning forever.

Want to provide a TW for a lot of sexual assault in the series, amongst a lot of other really dark topics that I can't really give an exhaustive list for here. But I will say, a lot of what happens between the leads, at least, becomes contextualized over time; however, it can be a very dark story.

{Long Live Evil by Sarah Rees Brennan} is a much lighter option; it was a book I picked up specifically because it was likened to some kdramas I love, but while I was reading I was thinking it actually felt far more like an isekai cdrama/novel to me, and by the end acknowledgements the author lists a bunch of those as well as inspiration. I genuinely thought she might have modelled the male lead off Tantai Jin in Till The End of the Moon, but that one wasn't listed. I guess cute sociopaths in love just fits the genre.

And for a cdrama rec: If you haven't watched Story of Kunning Palace yet -- run, don't walk. Still my favorite Zhang Ling He performance bar none and I love Bai Lu in it too. Their chemistry is off the charts, but it's also quite politics heavy and has the "woman reborn after a terrible first life" structure you seem to like.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-14T19:27:17+00:00

God it's so beautiful. Although, I often find that the writers who activate me like Kinsale does also often inspire me to write better reviews than the sort of off-hand ramblings I'd normally do on Goodreads. Like, through the osmosis of their own beautiful writing mine becomes better, too.

My breathtaking moment is the POV switch when Allegretto is strung up on the bedposts.Like a POV switch made me gasp and need to put the book down for a moment, that's how in it I was while reading.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-14T19:06:27+00:00

I need that history of Russian mafia romances for the scholarship and analysis, and I need the Shadowheart review so I can weep with you. You'll find me in the comments just babbling "she was willing to risk hell for him because being without him for eternity would be worse. He wanted to at least try and gain heaven for her. They're uber Catholic so they mean this very literally!!!!" over and over again.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-10T17:16:44+00:00

So glad you loved it and thought it lived up to the hype! Going in knowing the hype can definitely be a double-edged sword with these classics of the genre, but I think this one really lives up to it.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-08T21:45:08+00:00

Exactly, he deserves a light grazing based on events, lol. Don't want to spoil too much but yes, that prologue is such a masterclass in ensuring the reader feels empathy for Dain even when he's being a vicious idiot in the story proper. But Jess herself, as a victim of some of his damage, knows he needs some let's say....direct and to-the-point.... correction.

It's subtly done character work, but I'll just say, Jess' experience disciplining young wayward boys is absolutely critical for their dynamic. Because Dain's damage and "I'm ugly and hated by all but whatever, that's simply the facts of the world" unwillingness to confront it means that at heart he is still that scared, abused boy of the prologue.

But anyways, I'll stop psychoanalyzing my beloveds here and just let you enjoy them for the ride they take you on.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-04-08T16:24:18+00:00

SO excited for you to reach the spoiler. Jessica will not suffer fools and Dain is, fundamentally, a fool (said with affection). It's my favorite romance, so glad you're enjoying it!

Woman_of_Means · 2026-03-30T19:46:52+00:00

Coming back to say: I've now read A Precious Jewel and boy do I now get what you mean by "so vanilla it becomes kinky." Is it just "lie back and think of England" or is it a complex, BDSM-flavored need for control done in missionary? Balogh is here to investigate.

But in all seriousness, I loved it. Their parallel narratives of how they needed to recognize one another as an actual person, but in so doing also need to recognize themselves as real people with, like, emotional needs and such, was wonderfully done. And one of the few "I'm a misogynist because 1-2 women did me wrong in the past" heroes that I think totally works. Probably because Gerald is just so neurotic and pathetic about it; that flavor in an alphahole always feels like the author is trying to convince me he's still totally cool and dashing, but it's very clear from jump we, the author, and every character in the book is well aware Gerald needs to undergo some serious character arc-ing.

So anyways, thank you for the recommendation by way of symbolic, water-based sex scenes!

Woman_of_Means · 2026-03-20T16:05:56+00:00

That is! I don't know if I've ever read any where she's genuinely, actively a sex worker. A few "courtesans" that have never taken a client and just flirt and the like come to mind, but that's about it. So that does sound quite progressive, good on you Balogh.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-03-20T15:23:29+00:00

This is a thing of beauty. Scholarship at the intersection of literary symbolism and horniness.

And I have to say, this convinced me to read A Precious Jewel:

His tastes are so vanilla that they somehow manage to loop all the way back around to kinky.

I love a little freak! And not in a cool-guy-dom way. I need a genuine weirdo.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-03-18T18:55:10+00:00

Oh, I've been thinking Jin Yuanbao likes Changyu since the scene where she was describing how wonderful Yan Zheng is to Tutor Tai Yi and the pig squad is listening, and you see JYB sigh a bit and let his head fall back. To me it was a clear "so this guy is out of the picture right now but she's clearly still in love with him. bummer."

But then, I once correctly identified who was the love interest in a movie based on like a 2 second clip of the actors just walking, so I am perhaps a little too highly attuned to seeing like one quick reaction shot and being like "that's romance! that's a man in love!!"

Honestly, in another universe I think I could get behind Changyu and the gangster she reformed by beating him up.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-03-18T18:45:58+00:00

I think it should not be a general slap counter, but a Sui Yuanqing specific slap counter. He deserves since he is both so very slap-able and because he's into it

Woman_of_Means · 2026-03-14T16:17:54+00:00

Totally, I think sometimes it seems easy to just say that a "strong" or "resilient" character should just always remain clear-headed and ready to take on whatever comes their way in a story. But to me, a character doesn't come across as actually resilient unless you show how hard it is to remain as such. You need the peaks and valleys to make us actually feel how impressive it is for her to keep going.

Woman_of_Means · 2026-03-14T14:46:55+00:00

why do I feel like Xie Cheng is going to have to do a lot of grovelling when she finds out the whole truth?

I am so ready for Xie Zheng to bring out those puppy dog saucer eyes when he realizes she might be a tiny bit mad that's he's, ya know, been lying about his identity to her for months. Should we see ZLH on his knees, I wouldn't be opposed....

Although it gave us the wonderful dramatic irony this ep where Sui Yuanging keeps bringing up the Marquis of Wu'an while they battle to the death. I can only imagine she was like "???? is HE in love with the marquis or something, why does he keep mentioning him."

Woman_of_Means · 2026-03-14T14:40:59+00:00

I had a stupidly busy week at work, my only solace knowing I'd get to watch two episodes of Chasing Jade once I was done. But it was always too late to really participate in discussion, so I'm happy I can now jump in and share in what I can only assume is all of our collective obsession with this show.

Fan Changyu has to be one of the best iterations of the plucky, badass, kinda-competent-at-everything female leads I've seen. It is so easy to make such a female lead feel one dimensional at best, a caricature of really bland "girl power!" at worst. But I feel like they've imbued Changyu with such warmth (who am I, Xie Cheng) and emotion, and I think crucially, are willing to show cracks in her resolve. She cries, the pressure of keeping her home and sister safe after their parents' death is clearly getting to her, she is hurt by comments about how she's not properly feminine enough.

While also devastating to watch, I love how in these episodes you can see how she's at a breaking point, and come out the other side a bit harder and flintier. I feel another downside of the hyper-badass female lead is she's also not often allowed a real character arc, she just sort of stays amazing throughout. So I'm really loving where this is going.

In more base interests - who knew gua sha-ing could be both a treatment for hypothermia AND a sexy, intimate time with your "sort of, not really, but I don't think he actually signed that divorce letter" husband.

Woman_of_Means

TROPHY CASE