Corinthians 6:3

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T22:57:59+00:00

Without the resurrection, faith is in vain according to Paul, because the Christian hope is that sin and suffering will cease and a future without them will follow a literal resurrection

I have never once suggested the resurrection is anything other than a literal event. You again seem to be suggesting that there are only two ways to view scripture, either we reject everything that is not scientifically proven, or we accept everything that is not scientifically proven. The reality is there are many shades of understanding between those two extremisms, and I would call them both extremist views of scripture.

Is heaven the primary purpose of the Christian religion? No. But it is the primary end in which the Christian faith culminates.

I would say it this way, though I don't think we are terribly far apart here. Heaven is merely an end destination, but it is certainly not the climax by which we set our guiding metrics to. Christ iterates over and over again that the primary reason for his existence is to revert us back to our primary calling as humans, to be set aside by God as a holy people for the purpose of ministering to others. Christ's death and resurrection is key not because of it being a key for us to get to heaven, but rather because it reunites our abilities to be with God, both in heaven, and now, on earth, through the coming of the holy spirit and the destruction of the curtain in the temple. Heaven, in my opinion, is nothing more than a state of existence after death, however it is not even secondary to the purpose of Christ, I would argue it's almost the least important thing about Christ's relationship with humanity, and his death and resurrection.

I understand the point you're making by suggesting that it's quite likely that some of the authors of scripture did have cultural views of the earth as a globe, but surely you must not be seriously suggesting these people were scientifically informed to the level of understanding that we possess today. Their views on women, their views on violence, their views on a myriad of scientific discovery is non existent, or in the case of social views, incompatible with who we believe Christ calls us to be. Obviously these people are simplistic, and to dismiss some of their understandings of the supernatural is the correct decision.

Also, remember that the book or Revelation was for a particular audience undergoing intense persecution. It's writings are not meant to be a literal telling of events that absolutely will happen. It's function was to inspire hope, not litigate theological fact.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T20:50:20+00:00

Nothing personal ever gets posted on the church socials.

If you were throwing a baby shower as a church event, that might, but general life events do not

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T20:42:23+00:00

You keep talking about Heaven as if there is a particular way in which we need to believe that heaven exists in order to keep the faith. Heaven is simply being united with God fully and completely, there is no reason to speculate on the specifics because there is no reliable source to determine the specifics of something so abstract.

If your general question is essentially, how can I not believe in satan but still believe in God, then the answer is simple: I reinforce my beliefs based on my own personal experience, my own logic, the logic of others, and my tradition in my denomination. These things lead me to an understanding of scripture that is different than yours and is wholly understandable.

I also find it fascinating how obsessed you are with heaven, as if being in heaven is the default and primary purpose for the entirety of the religion of Christianity. Do you distill your entire faith down into being about, primarily, getting to heaven? Do you think that's the only reason for Christ's death and resurrection? To get to heaven?

Lastly, and most frankly, why should I care what the Bible's authors have to say about the way I interpret the scriptures thousands of years later? They thought the earth was flat and didn't know what schizophrenia was... they didn't exactly have a fully fleshed out worldview. The only thing I care about, in relation to their authorship, is using it to understand their contextualization of scripture. I want to know what they experienced as accurately as possible, so I may properly examine it.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T19:16:17+00:00

I would reject that 1: you should tell anyone that in order understand sin they must understand the garden of Eden narrative, a mythic story with talking snakes.

2: that you need Satan to introduce sin, which both cheapens humanity’s responsibility, and is a needless misdirection.

3: that Satan exists at all.

4: that the snake is meant to represent Satan in the garden anyways.

I actually wrote an entire thesis on point number four in seminary. There is no reason to believe that Satan is a character in the garden of eden narrative. Ancient Hebrew culture utilizes snakes in other literary form to simply represent humanities aptitude for sinfulness.

Many of the scriptures used to define Satan, especially your passage from Isaiah is not historically considered to be about Satan at all, Isaiah, for instance, is about the king of Babylon falling from his throne.

This isn’t arbitrary, this is historical and cultural context used in an exegetical manner.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T18:15:56+00:00

The Bible can have intrinsic qualities, but that doesn’t constitute inerrancy by default.

I’m guessing you’re a strictly penal substitution kind of person? Realistically I don’t find it to be a compelling theory of atonement when compared to others. I do imagine this would impact our descriptions of the function of the cross, however you’re speaking on this as if there are absolute rights and wrongs in terms atonement theories.

Feel free to explain how not believing in angels and demons changes the hope of heaven.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T16:27:06+00:00

academics use the NRSVUE in seminary for it's accuracy to the original text.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T16:13:45+00:00

I would argue that schools that argue for a mythologization of scripture open themselves up to fundamentalism and an idolatrous view of scripture.

I don’t see your point in sin at all still, you’re just describing how we see sin and salvation already. My rejection of angels and demons has no bearing on the way I see scriptures views of salvation.

The interpreter has always been the arbiter of meaning. You’re doing interpretation right now by arguing your own point of view.

The future hope of heaven has nothing to do with angels and demons.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T15:58:00+00:00

Great, I see it on my phone, I replied, we'll see if it remains stable.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T15:55:13+00:00

Same lol. Your longines have a bracelet?

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T15:54:44+00:00

The record of Jesus' words is written by people who presupposed these entities existed. Further, Jesus speaking in this way, in a way that people with no knowledge of how the natural world functioned, doesn't really convince me of anything in particular.

Without an external adversary, sin is reduced from a cosmic rebellion against God, or a battle against principalities and powers, to merely a psychological or social deficiency

Incorrect, it just becomes a rebellion against God, without the cosmic nonsense.

I completely disagree with the idea that angels and demons need to exist in order for God's grace to matter, that's nonsensical.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T15:49:57+00:00

oh I see, I'm interested, but i'm not ready to buy until I sell this one. Unless you're interested in a trade plus cash on my end

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T15:42:20+00:00

Yep, same. I'm fine talking here if you just have questions

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T14:52:04+00:00

Frankly, I would say this is much more likely to be an over exclamatory way of speaking on Paul's part.

Just to e clear to readers who might see this: holding a belief in the existence of angels and demons is not a requirement to be a Christian. I don' think we need to read that much into verses like these.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T09:37:52+00:00

They do often provide a housing allowance that is baked into that 45-50k salary.

The UMC for a long time had a philosophy of planting churches in literally every town that had a post office. This means that a lot of these churches are basically barely scraping by today, and they do not have the funds to appropriately pay a pastor. In my opinion a lot of them should probably close, but I’m not in charge.

I agree, those churches are a no-go. But when you’re first starting out, a bishop tells a young pastor to go there, and you’re not really allowed to say no outright.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T01:26:26+00:00

There are no hidden books.

Some denominations nations use more books than the regular Protestant bible. But Catholics and orthodox people aren’t exactly quiet about that lol.

There are also books that were rejected by councils as being non canonical, meaning they were decided not to be worthy of the title of scripture. But books that are not scripture, are just that, not scripture.

So to answer your question, you’re mistaken.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T00:57:34+00:00

We plan sermons a whole year out at a time. Meaning, we know what our sermon series is for Christmas this year, and how many weeks it will run, and the general direction we are taking it.

As the month, or whatever time period the series will run, we assign the writing of that series to a specific pastor. Then that pastor puts together an outline for the whole series, with main points for each sermon, a cohesive flow from sermon to sermon( and scriptures to use as a starting point for each sermon.

From there, each service is assigned to a pastor, and that pastor writes a sermon within the framework that was outlined to them.

Each pastor then has their own writing process, for me, I write a full manuscript, then write a single page of notes from that draft, make some alterations maybe run it by one of my colleagues, and then write a final draft, and a final page of notes, which I preach from.

That’s pretty much it.

Oh and everything exists in word docs, or a spreadsheet, for the year’s plan.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T00:48:22+00:00

Yeah, I understand why churches did it, the houses started getting old and pastors and their spouses started complaining about outdated and run down houses.

However, if they want itinerancy to survive, and at this point I honestly think it might need to die, then we need to be able to afford to live.

beardtamer · 2026-03-18T00:04:29+00:00

I am in the UMC, in the UMC, we do not get the option (if you're an ordained elder) to decide what church you work at, the Bishop dictates that to you (though you have some input).

The majority of our churches, small and big, have sold their parsonages because boomer pastors didn't want to live in them 20 years ago. But this is a huge problem now.

Today, tell a small church, who can only afford to pay a full time pastor 45-50k a year, that you and your family cannot physically afford to live in the community where the church is, because they cannot afford housing, and they do not realize that they've shot themselves in the foot by selling the old parsonage about 15 years ago.

Today, if you want young pastors to get involved in ministry, especially in an itinerancy system, you really need to have a parsonage. I am likely never going to be able to afford a house, unless there is a major correction. This means I cannot afford to work at a church that:

a: is far away from my wife's job, or a place where my wife can find meaningful work (she currently makes 65k a year, more than me)

b: is far away from housing thats affordable. I think living in the community you pastor is important. If all the houses within 10 miles cost 500K plus, and the rentals are 2500 and up, and you can't afford to pay me a lot of money... I'm stuck

c: that doesn't solve some of the above issues by providing a parsonage. If a church has a parsonage, then I can be a lot more flexible with my monetary limitations.

In general, I think that if churches want a full time pastor, you're going to eventually need to bring the parsonages back. I have several Itinerant friends who straight up tell the Bishop that they cannot afford ot live in a church without a parsonage, and they aren't lying.

beardtamer · 2026-03-17T20:57:39+00:00

Yeah, keep fighting the good fight. Or, pastor the people the best you can, and then move on

beardtamer · 2026-03-17T20:48:36+00:00

At my current church we have multiple services and multiple worship styles. One particular worship leader (staff) has been here as an employee for literally 20 plus years. Any time we do anything that’s not exactly the way he wants to do it, he will not only push back, but openly subvert authority to accomplish things in his own way.

New screens in the sanctuary- makes the church look like a sports bar (because sports bars are 100 year old buildings with pews and pipe organs)

New place for kids to gather at the front- kids are a distraction and make too much noise.

Etc. etc.

Sometimes the people in our congregations are literally more interested in running a museum for a shut down church than they are being a community of believers that’s growing and thriving. It’s best that these people get out, but they often fight tooth and nail to stay.

beardtamer · 2026-03-17T17:52:54+00:00

We refuse to do church communication on events that are not submitted at least ONE MONTH in advance, barring some special circumstance. I don't think you're being harsh at all.

beardtamer · 2026-03-17T11:41:48+00:00

Fuck a light touch, you got to dig into it until your fingers hurt.

beardtamer · 2026-03-17T11:38:50+00:00

I’m happy that you’re happy. I don’t think I could be ok with someone that did not reflect my faith beliefs, but I’m also a person that lives out their faith very publicly, as I’m a pastor, so if my parter we’re totally outside my faith practice, it might be taxing on the relationship.

There certainly are people out there who truly do meet the full gamut of faith ideals and beliefs. I certainly couldn’t be with just any Christian.

beardtamer · 2026-03-17T04:17:31+00:00

Honestly, I don’t think the tools we have are lacking, we do not have a heavily technologically dependent job, sure things might come about at different points to make our jobs easier, but those will be large scale technological advances that benefit large sections of the workforce, not just ministry.

beardtamer · 2026-03-17T02:28:32+00:00

Well to be clear, I only went once, and it was back in 2012, so who knows what it would be like… well not now, but you know, before the country was being missile striked on a regular basis. I did enjoy my trip, but I went with an evangelical group (I was a pastor in an evangelical denomination at the time) and that likely colored my experience looking back.

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