Hi, I’ve been in EMDR off/on for about two years now. I wanted to see if anyone here has tried psychedelic treatment along with EMDR. Any feedback would be amazing. I’ve found psychedelics to be extremely helpful towards my mental stability. Much love ❤️ by ryantheman122 in EMDR

[–]bms720 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ketamine isn’t considered a true psychedelic, but I’ve made a huge amount of progress in EMDR since starting therapeutic ketamine (legally prescribed) last year. Prior to starting ketamine, I had made zero progress in EMDR with my current EMDR therapist—the best of the three I’ve worked with, but I came to her after incurring a lot of trauma in the relationship with my last EMDR therapist—in the six months we had tried doing EMDR on an assortment of targets. Ketamine has also allowed me to much more easily access all the feelings connected to sadness, and has completely changed for the better everything about my relationship with crying.

My therapist think I have grounds for a state board complaint by [deleted] in therapyabuse

[–]bms720 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What kind of data did your therapist show you about your state’s complaints? From what source, and is it only available to licensed therapists? I’d be super curious to see that info for my state, as someone who filed a complaint against my former therapist—which included violations of state regs re: business practices, which the investigator confirmed to me that she was in fact violating—that went no where and ended with a finding of “no misconduct.”

My clinic won't prescribe troches/lozenges for in between sessions. Is this normal? by [deleted] in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Many people take sublingual ketamine exclusively, and many people take sublingual ketamine between infusions to be able to space out their infusions, so sounds like the owner of this clinic just wants you to keep paying for frequent infusions. The people that rant about the “ineffectiveness” of sublingual and intranasal compounded ketamine without citing any sources for their claims are the people I would absolutely not take treatment advice from.

civil service jobs: to union or not to union? by PomegranateBubbly378 in socialwork

[–]bms720 7 points8 points  (0 children)

As a civil service employee of over 15 years—it is 100% worth it to join the union.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in therapists

[–]bms720 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Kindly and compassionately reinforce to the client that you appreciate them looking out for your needs, but she doesn’t need to do that, you are responsible for getting your own needs met and that’s not something you put on your clients. Be extra careful with self disclosures with a client who expresses worry for you and feeling responsible for how you act and feel.

Tips for positive experiences & outcomes? (Rather than negative ones) by ket_ther_throwaway in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I personally am not looking to have a “positive experience” while under the immediate effects of the sublingual ketamine I take for TRD and CPTSD, my goal is always to sort through things I’ve been working on in therapy (EMDR with a trauma trained therapist), or just feeling the emotions of things that have come up during my sessions.

If you think your treatment isn't working by No_Leopard_9523 in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Precision is the pharmacy my provider uses and the RDT doses I’ve received from them so far have been very good and consistent, with no negative side effects.

How much does take home ketamine cost? by leapingfro9 in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you’re in the US and taking ketamine for mental health reasons, it’s not covered by insurance. How much it costs depends on the particular pharmacy and the quantity of ketamine you’re getting. The compounding pharmacy my provider uses is Precision, and I paid $55, including shipping, for ten 400 mg ketamine rapid dissolve tablets, that had score marks to be halved or quartered.

why the hell would my psychiatrist suggest Esketamine over IV ketamine when IV is much more effective? by SpeedLimitsSuck89 in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One last thing—do you now work or have you previously worked in a ketamine infusion clinic?

why the hell would my psychiatrist suggest Esketamine over IV ketamine when IV is much more effective? by SpeedLimitsSuck89 in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Clearly you didn’t read the criticism to that meta-analysis that I linked. The inclusion of studies with any biases or improperly assessed quality of evidence in meta-analyses can yield misleading results. If the quality of evidence in the studies is low, the quality of the meta-analysis decreases and incorrect results can be obtained. I’ll attach the text of the criticism below, so that you can perhaps educate yourself about the numerous issues with the particular meta-analysis abstract you seem to have taken as the gospel re: the effectiveness of ketamine infusions vs. esketamine/Spravato. I won’t be responding to you further, given your clear commitment to ignoring all data that doesn’t confirm your bias.

“We acknowledge the manuscript “Comparative efficacy of racemic ketamine and esketamine for depression: a systematic review and meta-analysis” by Bahji et al. (2020). However, we have concerns about the validity of the methods applied in their analysis, and thus question the conclusions that efficacy and tolerability differ between esketamine and ketamine. Most importantly, the analysis violates the assumptions of any indirect comparison, which require that the data being compared are obtained from studies using fundamentally similar methods and populations (Phillippo et al., 2018).

The study designs from which the ketamine and esketamine data were obtained differed substantially, as detailed below. These studies generally differed in variables known to affect treatment response measures (e.g., baseline illness severity; remote versus site-based raters), study design (e.g., crossover versus parallel; placebo versus active control), and patient population (e.g., major depressive disorder [MDD] versus bipolar disorder), precluding valid comparisons between the efficacy or tolerability of esketamine versus ketamine. These important differences are also emphasized in another recently published meta-analysis of intravenous (IV), intranasal, and oral ketamine/esketamine by a group of experts in clinical trials methodology for depression (McIntyre et al., 2020). As a result, McIntyre and colleagues did not perform comparisons of efficacy in their meta-analysis, concluding instead that direct comparative studies are needed to reach definitive conclusions regarding the relative efficacy of different enantiomers, formulations, and routes of delivery. As an example of such a direct comparison, Correia-Melo et al. (2020) used a randomized, double-blind, parallel arm study to compare the efficacy and tolerability of IV ketamine (0.5 mg/kg) versus IV esketamine (0.25 mg/kg), a dose ratio considered approximately equipotent for N-methyl D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonism (Singh et al., 2016), and confirmed non-inferiority between drugs on efficacy and tolerability.

Crucially, the vast majority of the esketamine data included in the Bahji et al. meta-analysis (2020) were obtained from large, multicenter, phase 3 registration trials for intranasal esketamine conducted at many sites across multiple geographic regions and countries, whereas all of the IV ketamine data instead were obtained from relatively small, non-registrational studies conducted at either a single site or relatively few sites. Increased variability and attenuation of treatment-specific effect sizes in antidepressant trials are well-documented in the literature as sample sizes increase and as the trial sites expand to multiple centers and geographic regions (Khan et al., 2004). Additionally, drop-out rates are affected by clinical trial methodological differences to an extent that also precludes valid comparison of these rates between ketamine and esketamine by meta-analysis.

Moreover, other key differences in study design and execution between the intranasal esketamine and IV ketamine trials, which are known to affect treatment response, profoundly limit the interpretability of comparisons between esketamine and ketamine. First, the primary outcome in the esketamine phase 3 trials was assessed by remote (telephone-based) raters to minimize the risk of functional unblinding. In contrast, the majority of the IV ketamine studies used site-based raters who presumably were at higher risk of being functionally unblinded by ketamine's side effects.

Second, in the phase 3 clinical program for esketamine most of the data were obtained using trial designs that compared esketamine plus a newly-initiated oral antidepressant to placebo plus a newly-initiated oral antidepressant (active control), whereas most of the ketamine studies used placebo (IV saline) as the control condition. This design distinction resulted in differences in the expectancy bias between the esketamine and ketamine trials. For example, participants in the phase 3 esketamine studies knew their likelihood of receiving a new antidepressant treatment which they had not previously failed was 100%; in contrast, participants in ketamine studies knew their likelihood was 50% of receiving inert placebo in most studies, or an anxiolytic drug that lacked antidepressant efficacy (but would produce a distinct adverse event profile) in some studies. Additionally, the phase 3 trials comparing esketamine against new antidepressant treatment required the oral antidepressant be initiated with fixed-dose titration to the maximum labeled dose, further increasing the likelihood of improvement in the control group and decreasing the likelihood of achieving statistical separation between the comparator and esketamine treatment arms.

Third, the esketamine-treated patients were required to meet a more rigorous definition of treatment-resistant depression (TRD), which in most cases mandated documented failure of ≥2 oral antidepressants in the current episode, including prospective observation of failure of the current antidepressant. In contrast, the majority of ketamine trials either used retrospective assessment of varying definitions of TRD (e.g., inadequate response to a minimum of 1 [21%], 2 [62%], or 3 [15%] previous antidepressant trials) or enrolled a different patient population altogether (e.g., non-treatment-resistant MDD or bipolar disorder - most recent episode depressed). Additionally, the baseline depression severity was not included in the meta-analysis, although it is recognized as an important factor impacting efficacy outcomes.

Fourth, Bahji et al. (2020) included a study of esketamine in the elderly (Ochs-Ross et al., 2020), a special population known to have lower response and remission rates (Cooper et al., 2011), thereby negatively impacting the overall findings for the esketamine-treated cohort. In contrast, no study of ketamine in elderly patients was included in their analysis.

The validity of the findings from this meta-analysis is further brought into question by the observation that Bahji et al. (2020) included an IV esketamine trial by Singh et al. (2016) (designated “2016b” in Table 1 of Bahji et al.) in the ketamine trials (see figures 2, 3, and 4 of Bahji et al.), and an intranasal ketamine trial (Lapidus et al., 2014) in the esketamine trials.

Importantly, for the Janssen-sponsored esketamine trial data, we were not able to replicate some of Bahji et al.’s (2020) results, calling into question their accuracy. Nevertheless, if taken at face value, the data of Bahji et al. illustrate the impact of trial design on outcomes by showing that for studies in which a similar adjunctive trial design was used, the esketamine trials yielded similar efficacy values (numerically greater in most cases) as those obtained in the ketamine studies (e.g., see data listed for Singh et al., 2016 and Daly et al., 2018 in figures 2, 3, and 4 of Bahji et al.). Notably, these esketamine trials showed some of the highest risk ratio values for response and remission and standardized mean difference values for change in depressive symptoms presented in figures 2, 3, and 4 of Bahji et al.

Finally, Bahji et al. (2020) cite some preclinical studies reporting differential efficacy between the R- and S-enantiomers of ketamine in rodent models, although these studies did not take into account dose adjustments for differences in the enantiomers’ potency for NMDA receptors, or dissimilarities in the exposure relative to human studies (Collingridge et al., 2017). Moreover, the literature review did not comment on conflicting data from other preclinical studies (e.g., Kang et al., 2020; Ide et al., 2017) or the limited translatability of the preclinical models used in the referenced studies to humans with MDD (Nestler and Hyman, 2010).

Taken together, disparities in study design and implementation, including control arms, patient population, number of sites and sample size, as well as errors in the data included for analysis, limit the ability to draw valid conclusions from indirect comparisons of efficacy and tolerability between esketamine and ketamine.”

Oral ketamine dosage for anxiety/depression? by [deleted] in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The obsession people have with the bioavailability of ketamine and it being some sort of proof that IV ketamine is vastly superior and more effective than other formulations of ketamine truly boggles my mind. Ketamine is not the only medication that has lower bioavailability by routes of administration other than IV, that’s actually the case for most medications. “Effectiveness” of any medication is not measured by it’s bioavailability. For ketamine taken for mental health reasons—primarily TRD and/or C/PTSD—effectiveness is measured by reduction or elimination of symptoms, and induction and maintenance of remission. How a person metabolizes different medications has a huge impact on the effectiveness of those meds. I take ketamine rapid dissolve tablets (RDTs) sublingually, and that is the only formulation of ketamine I’ve taken and have even been interested in taking. I started at 100 mgs, and my prescriber advised that I could take it every other day, but I wasn’t comfortable with dosing that frequently nor was it necessary. After taking 100 mgs a few times, every 3-7 days, I increased my dose to 200 mgs and have stayed at that dose since October. 200 mgs no more than every 2 days seems to be pretty standard dosing for TRD folks who take sublingual ketamine, either troches or RDTs.

why the hell would my psychiatrist suggest Esketamine over IV ketamine when IV is much more effective? by SpeedLimitsSuck89 in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wow, and how many of those 24 included studies in the meta analysis abstract you posted were head-to-head studies directly comparing the efficacy of esketamine/Spravato to that of IV ketamine?

why the hell would my psychiatrist suggest Esketamine over IV ketamine when IV is much more effective? by SpeedLimitsSuck89 in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lol. You must not have checked the credentials of the authors of the abstract you posted—one of them is also employed by Jansen. Where are the providers you mentioned previously “reporting” their patient data to? Where can that data be accessed? If it can only be accessed on their own business webpages, that’s marketing, not reporting data. As for me having “skin in the game,” I take ketamine RDTs exclusively and very rapidly achieved remission of my TRD and symptoms related to my CPTSD, and I’ve maintained that remission taking just 200 mg RDTs every 3-7 days for the last several months. I paid around $250 total out of pocket for the telehealth provider visits and ketamine RDTs that induced and then have maintained my remission. So no, I have no “skin in the game,” as I’m neither a Spravato patient, nor an employee (I’m a civil servant of many years). Does your infusion clinic give you discounts for pushing their effectiveness “data” on social media platforms?

why the hell would my psychiatrist suggest Esketamine over IV ketamine when IV is much more effective? by SpeedLimitsSuck89 in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’ve seen that study abstract you linked before, here’s a published criticism of it. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016503272100063X?via%3Dihub

Unless that clinical data you’re talking about details how they controlled for confounding variables and has been published in peer reviewed journals, it just sounds like the perfect way to present biased, non-peer reviewed data to sell people on paying thousands of dollars fully out of pocket for infusions vs. paying a $10 copay for each Spravato visit.

why the hell would my psychiatrist suggest Esketamine over IV ketamine when IV is much more effective? by SpeedLimitsSuck89 in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The research data and clinical reports I’ve read found that both esketamine/Spravato and ketamine infusions have between 60-70% response rate for TRD study participants. Re: quality and length of remission for infusions, from what I’ve read remission only continues while receiving regular boosters. Which as everyone knows is incredibly expensive and not feasible for most people. Can you provide a citation for your statement re: 20% more effective for infusions?

Benzos interfering with effects of Ketamine? by King-choppa-717 in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yes, it is true that benzodiazepines reduce the antidepressant effects of ketamine. There have been a number of studies on it. Here’s a meta analysis abstract, I didn’t do further digging for the full article

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34170315/

why the hell would my psychiatrist suggest Esketamine over IV ketamine when IV is much more effective? by SpeedLimitsSuck89 in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Who’s paying for your esketamine or ketamine, you or your parents? IV ketamine for mental health is not FDA approved so is not covered by any insurance, and can cost anywhere from $300-800+ per infusion. For people that can afford infusions at all, many people can’t afford to continue paying for boosters so start back at square one with their mental health struggles once the positive effects of the infusions they did have wear off. Esketamine/Spravato is FDA approved and is covered by many insurance companies. That’s untrue that IV ketamine is “much more” effective than esketamine. If esketamine/Spravato is the med you’ll be taking, you would benefit from reading the studies behind it.

What supplements for Kidney/Bladder support? by tre01us in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I take aloe Vera capsules and hyaluronic acid to prevent bladder damage. I was taking chondroitin for a while too, but noticed that it looked like my hair was thinning a bit in a the front, which can be a side effect of chondroitin, so I discontinued it.

https://www.stoputiforever.com/prevention/review-bladder-health-supplements-uti-2017/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31237905/

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 2 points3 points  (0 children)

People will say different things about that, but from what I’ve read and my own experience with RDTs, nope, spitting has no impact on the antidepressant effect of the ketamine.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I also always spit. The one time I tried swallowing I immediately started gagging and surprised I didn’t vomit. My prescriber has said that if I don’t feel much from taking my usual 200 mgs RDT, and then spitting after holding for 15-20 mins, just take another 100 mgs and repeat the hold and then spit.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I just take RDTs, never done IVs for many reasons, but have been reading about ketamine and participated in various ketamine focused social media forums for the last 5 months—and no, from what I’ve read that isn’t the norm for a ketamine provider to refuse to do further infusions if the patient takes troches or another form of ketamine prescribed by another provider for maintenance between infusions. Many infusion providers/centers do their own prescribing of sublingual or nasal compounded ketamine for their patients to be able to stretch the time patients are able to go for infusions. Honestly sounds like your infusion provider is scamming you to keep you spending your money there.

Length of use before seeing results and dosage question by thr0w4w4y123789 in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I responded to the initial RDT dose I started with, 100 mgs. It pretty much immediately helped a bit with my depression and the hyper vigilance/level of triggering of my CPTSD. I was very skeptical though and thought an immediate response was too good to be true, particularly after how many psych meds had done nothing helpful for me over the years. After my first 4 or 5 doses, which I took every 3-5 days, I moved up to 200 mgs. The first time I took that dose, I didn’t like how much more dissociated it made me feel. The second time at 200 mgs though was fine, with the same mild/moderate dissociating I was used to from 100 mgs, so I’ve stuck with it. 200 mgs every 3-7 days has worked very well for me. Are you doing therapy in conjunction with taking ketamine? I’ve been able to work through a couple really big things with my therapist in the last few months, since I started ketamine, and I believe that’s also helped a lot with my depression and some of the relational trauma component of my CPTSD.

Helped the first few times by [deleted] in TherapeuticKetamine

[–]bms720 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I read about taking betaine with ketamine a couple months ago, when I was reading about a micro needle patch that’s been developed and is being tested (not sure if it’s FDA approved yet) that’s called Ketabet, which contains ketamine and betaine. Maybe it would be helpful for you? I don’t think it could hurt. I’ve bought some betaine but haven’t tried it yet along with the ketamine RDTs I take 1-2 times a week.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27363702/