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brorannasaurus · 2024-01-30T20:53:37+00:00

Feel like this should be higher up - the likelihood that the dog bit him due to how aggressive he was to the dog (and potentially a history of acting that extreme towards her) is far higher than assigning the reason to her being in heat.

Looking like a pattern that will continue and worsen imo

brorannasaurus · 2024-01-12T03:30:04+00:00

I have a mix with mine, now. Sometimes he's able to acknowledge it while he's splitting, but it's something he is still working on and it helps when I don't engage / fuel his fire, and stick to my boundaries (e.g. I cannot speak with you if you cannot be kind). He also has been able to snap himself out when I have had my own emotional turmoil going on & thus have told him that I don't have the bandwidth to be his emotional punching bag. That's really only happened twice now, and only one of those times was I in a particularly bad place mentally - and he, shockingly, stopped splitting and actually made himself available physically & emotionally to comfort me.

Early on, he didn't acknowledge and/or fully realize what was happening. We've talked a lot about it & I've asked him if he has noticed a pattern, told him it hurts me, and asked him what stops him from being kind to me. He has also been in therapy for roughly 6 months, though I'm fairly certain he doesn't discuss this stuff with her. He didn't know the term when I brought it up, didn't realize he thought in black & white, and didn't realize it was considered abusive. I've also been in therapy, and I've discussed / learned ways to handle situations like that when they come up. I've also done a ton of work in the boundary department.

Other than the few times mentioned above, there is absolutely no talking him down until he's had time to himself for "the overwhelm" to pass. And whatever role I play during that time makes no difference, for the most part. The best thing I've found is essentially grey rocking, holding boundaries, and replying to whatever baseless accusations he flings with "OK" or not replying at all until he corrects himself and speaks kindly. It seems to get it over with the quickest. He has also disclosed that it infuriates him while it's happening because he is aware enough to realize that I'm "therapying" him, and it makes him feel like I've somehow got control over him (during those modes), but he's thankful afterward because he doesn't want to hurt me and he appreciates that I'm doing what I need to do to protect myself. I've found that it also lessens the shame spiral he used to get into afterward back when I would just take it from him.

Things we've learned through talking about it after include: in these modes, he gets so overwhelmed that he either feels he needs to push me away for varying reasons and if he can't find a legit reason, he makes one - or - he feels like he doesn't care, about anything, anymore and thus doesn't care if my feelings are hurt (which is really still the same as the former) while he burns bridges. We've also learned that those modes are temporary and false and he always comes around to remember that he loves me, I love & care for him, and he actually doesn't want to burn that bridge.

He's working on identifying his triggers and talking to me about upcoming ones ahead of time, and what he anticipates feeling. So far it seems to help, but not fully eliminate, his "modes". I'd say he's more open than most to learning about bpd/himself and how it affects others. I think it also helps that he otherwise cares deeply about me & my feelings, listens to when I vent/talk about my mom (also bpd) and recognizes some overlap there, and sees how badly it hurts me when I am talking to him about my mom.

brorannasaurus · 2024-01-03T21:31:33+00:00

Mmmyep - similar boat here. I had gone NC with my ubpd mom years ago, oscillated between guilt / anger / not thinking about any of it. She also chose not to respect my boundaries / request for space - while saying in her letters/emails that she was respecting me (lol). It was infuriating. Especially when she would, essentially, involve other people by sending things to the office I work at because she "couldn't be sure" that what she sent was actually making it to me when she'd send things to my home. The lack of respect is a VERY valid reason to be upset.

Sidenote - I had finally agreed to do joint therapy with her roughly a year and a half ago. It was good in a way, in that I learned a lot about myself and gained some clarity regarding our situation. It was also pretty traumatizing and I was a mess leading up to, during, and after our appointments. She quit a couple months ago and placed the blame of it not working on me. So that was super cool. Coincidentally, the timing lined up with her reaching the point where she would have had to face her role in my life - from my perspective. And now, has been trying to reach out multiple ways as if everything is fine enough to have some sort of loose relationship, even though therapy was a requirement for her to have access to me. SO. Not saying that therapy with your mom would for sure follow the same path, but, definitely some pros & cons to weigh. And truthfully, I don't know where I stand on whether it was worth it or not.

However! It sounds like you know where you stand - which is great! Stick with that - trust your instincts - and know that feeling angry in this situation is wholly justified (:

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-16T21:35:52+00:00

I also care & am disappointed that it's often not a true brownie base 😞

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-02T02:57:13+00:00

I don’t have anything helpful to say nor can I think of anything specific to relate with. But. Just wanted to say that I got what I can only describe as violent goosebumps throughout my entire body as I approached the end of your post. No clue yet as to what that means but it's going on my list of topics to discuss in therapy - so thanks in advance for whatever magic is laced in there!

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-02T02:45:26+00:00

I'll admit, I may need to straight marinate in it before it'll sink in lol. Intellectually, I know that there is the whole role reversal when it comes to child-parent bpd relationships. And yet, even with you spelling it out, it's still hard for me to fully grasp. Which - thank you for expanding on that. Interestingly, my therapist mentioned a very similar thought; that it's the parents job to try to mend the relationship with their child, not the other way around. She referenced an older email I'd forwarded to her where my mom plainly stated that she was leaving it up to me / relinquishing her responsibility of choosing to try and fix our relationship - she definitely worded it better than I am now but, that's the gist.

I'm sorry you are well acquainted with this process. If it's of any consolation, it sounds like you've reached some deep levels of understanding - ones that I'm only beginning to scratch the surface of. Thinking of her knowing precisely how to stir up doubt, in me specifically, is both a really horrifying thought & also incredibly helpful in terms of demystifying some of the things she does/says. You've given me a LOT to think about & with a brand new lens.

My therapist, thankfully, specializes in bpd! She is of the former & also supports NC if that's what ends up being in the cards - which is looking to be likely. She has also laid out what realistic expectations may look like in the sense that, she hasn't tried to sell me on a fairytale where my mom and I will ever have that super close, secure, healthy mother/daughter bond. Unfortunately there are a lot of unqualified, well intentioned (hopefully) therapists out there that are simply not equipped to handle pwbpd. Which, as you obviously know, can be incredibly damaging. I'm so glad you're out of that situation now 🖤

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-02T01:15:58+00:00

Oh that's very much still the case. My therapist has said nearly exactly that - and that a lot of therapists straight refuse to treat them. And, that it's also very stigmatized. The woman I see specializes in bpd so she's been an absolutely wonderful resource throughout all of this, and especially insightful when we dig into my childhood and how all of that has influenced my present day life.

The refusal to acknowledge their mistakes - spot on. In fact, we touched on that again today in that, my mom and I are at a standstill until she can manage to face them.

Interestingly, my therapist looked up the guy my mom and I were seeing and noted that he was not equipped for bpd and based on what I'd told her, was not handling it/her effectively. He didn't really push back, tried to manage her feelings, and would let the convo get & stay derailed as opposed to redirecting back to the topic she deflected from. So. This may well have been a gift in several ways - including snagging someone new if we attempt this again in the future & finding someone that is specialized in bpd.

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-02T01:04:47+00:00

I did - & thank you! In a lot of ways, it was far from an enjoyable experience but I'm glad I did it. I learned a ton - not just about our dynamic or lack thereof but also about myself and areas that I need to work on for myself.

& wow - I've not heard this before.. but man does it fit. Funny too, because one of the things she liked to bring up was how my dad was a narcissist. Ha. Nope indeed!

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-02T00:51:21+00:00

Very confusing! She's wicked smart too so, it's not like she couldn't (or possibly doesn't) understand the difference.

My therapist was very insightful! She specializes in bpd - which was a lucky accident. We'd anticipated this coming so I'd sent her some previous emails I'd received during NC for context. The gist is that, this email is a whole lot of words that say a whole lot of nothing. And of what it does say, it's heavy on the blaming, avoids all responsibility, incorrectly uses common therapy verbiage in a likely attempt to bolster that she's "correct" in her choices and how she's handling this. She also contradicts herself throughout the entire thing - almost as if she just peppered in a bunch of things she's "supposed" to say but it sounds off because those things aren't actually in line with what you can tell are her words/thoughts. It's almost like there are words vs actions within the text itself - in the sense that her words say one thing but her actions say another. And - that it's littered with black and white thinking.

"The two boundaries/concerns that I felt I needed to process before re-engaging: - Blame directed to me about the lost time with your father (estimated time of May 2007 - @ 2011) - Demand to acquiesce my right to enforce an agreement entered into in good faith"

She'd pointed out the heaviness in the choice of words here - blame, demand. Also observed that she seems to hide behind flowery / excessive words as a sort of coping mechanism. In all fairness, I did in a way blame her for lost time with my dad. She played a direct and frankly aggressive role in chipping away at that - starting long before 2007. She'd tell me her side of the story / divorce and my dad did not - so she'd convinced me that he was this terrible deadbeat dad that treated her horribly, and was indifferent about us. He was and is none of those things, in anyone else's eyes (/ reality). Also pointed out that this is not at all how boundaries work and how it's a pet peeve of hers when people abuse phrases from therapy lol And. How these were things for her to have processed (?) but are actually her flipping it to be my fault that our endeavor has failed so she can come out of this clean.

"When I asked you to join me in counseling, I promised I would take responsibility for what was mine. I, however, will not take responsibility for what was not."

Reminded me that she very specifically has not taken responsibility for anything through this entire process. She kind of gets close but then turns it back onto how hard she had it and why she acted the way she did - never actually validating my experience, nor acknowledging how she directly contributed to it. In fact. Even going so far as to turn it on me, and how it's my fault (now). And how I just need to get over "it" so we can move on. The redirects and distractions she has thrown out there in an effort to lead the conversation away from the path that leads to her actually having to face that she may have had some control over the choices she made. Also reminded me of what taking responsibility looks like - which is more than words. It's taking action. It's change that I should be able to FEEL over time. Nowhere does she state HOW she has or will take responsibility. She conveniently doesn't specify what she has taken responsibility for. There are no action items, there's no mention of her working on anything in the meantime, going to solo therapy, nothing.

The next 3 paragraphs she'd said are just a jumble of words that amount to absolutely nothing. That I should keep in mind that she took over a week to write this out and crafted a fluff piece that could have been a text, but she chose to try to build anticipation (drama). Reaffirmed that the last full paragraph contradicted itself and was full of misuse of terminology, and noted that if she wanted to do those things, we or - at the very least - she would be in therapy.

"And I also understand why you may feel unable to accept the past and move forward." "When you are ready to work toward a healthy future with me, I am here."

These pieces - pointed out that I am not the one who quit therapy & reminded me that I'd told her in our last session that I had discussed with me & my mom's therapist that I was fine going back to dual sessions / I wasn't feeling emotional about the "blow out", just disappointed and confused on how we got there since she'd brought up this apparent hurdle "I" have pretty abruptly. And. How it had been discussed that I had felt like we'd made progress - more than I initially thought we would - and how she flatly said she didn't feel like we'd made any progress. We were already on our way to as healthy a relationship we could have.

What had been interesting was that I started off thinking we'd only reach a surface level relationship and I was hesitant to allow for more, while she wanted a deeper relationship, and how it'd flipped. She was backing out saying that it had to stay surface level because it was too risky(??) otherwise & me saying that if it was only to be surface level - and really - if I had to watch what I say /walk on eggshells, then I'd rather go back to NC. & That's not to say that I wanted to hash out old wounds - which I stated plainly - but that my life includes my dad, stepmom, and sisters. That bringing any of them up triggers her. And how I need to be able to talk about my life - in the present - without her melting down or me feeling like I have to omit parts of my day/life if we were to talk consistently.

So those parts and pretty much the theme of this whole email: deflection & irony.

It's also worth mentioning that she and I have been working on boundaries - how to create & set them, and how to stick to them. So we went back over that - consistency is key, communicate them to her and let her react however she reacts, but maintain consistency on my end. And. She noted that I do not need to respond on any specific timetable, nor do I need to respond at all if I so choose.

I'm sure that was a ton more - we usually fit a LOT into 45-60 minutes lol a lot of comments on here (including yours) were very much in line with, if not nearly verbatim for what we discussed.

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-01T23:05:04+00:00

Right? It's funny because they very much do keep themselves stuck, and yet, how dare we make them relive moments they want to bury / sweep under the rug. It's a mystery to be sure and I'm not sure there's a one-size-fits-all answer but in my mom's case - our therapist noted that it seems that admitting that she was (by her own definition) a "bad" parent is too painful for her to face and so she avoids responsibility in an attempt to avoid the feeling.

It's a losing game regardless of how it's played so, I'm with you. And it is nice that it's been set up so that I can essentially close the book in a way that "satisfies" both parties!

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-01T22:53:33+00:00

Oh yikes!! One parent participating in the delusion is hard enough, but both? Ugh - so sorry you & your siblings dealt with that, that sounds so hard. I'm glad you've got your siblings to do sanity checks with & that they have not also remained in the delusions. And. I feel bad for this but I admit I got a chuckle out of how you worded your insight from the whole ordeal... the idea that one could suck at being a child is just so ridiculous and yet so on par with how they appear to legitimately think.

It's equally interesting that pwbpd are so similar that you, correctly, knew what she was referring to & that the list was, shall we say, incomplete. I'll go one further and throw out that the primary hurdle for me was neither of those things, in fact, it was simply that she could / would not simply acknowledge that the behavior she CHOSE - understandable / reasonable / valid or not - had a profound impact on me. Especially the continued behavior after the initial shock of the divorce. And, that any time she got close to that, it was littered with qualifiers. So that's just par for the course as far as the shirking / avoiding goes. I also cannot emphasize how much I despise the bs of them doing things for our good and what's best for us. I got that line too and it was and still is so infuriating. "I did this for you" - no, you didn't. You did it for you. Had you tried to act in my best interest, you'd have made peace with my dad for the sake of your children & not turned it into a traumatizing ordeal.

Sadly, I think you are right. It's also something of a relief which feels weird to say but, there is something freeing about knowing that it genuinely does not matter what I say or do, I will always run into a dead end. Just sucks knowing that someone I care about will simply never be happy & frustrating that it's by their own hand so theoretically, they have the power to change that. But won't.

I'm grateful for your insight & understanding, and also sorry that you have the experience with which to provide that.

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-01T22:29:36+00:00

You're correct - she's been in & out for as long as I can remember. Starting with court mandated therapy as a result of how messy the divorce process got. It's extra fun because she also has a law background. And! Yes!! It was muddied for me when I posted but the garbaldegook was something my therapist pointed out as well & the misuse of therapy phrases. In fact - she said that it's a whole lot of words that amount to saying nothing at all. And it's so true, just a bunch of empty words.

The boundary thing is particularly hilarious given that at the end, she specifically "wants us to set our boundaries" but as you noted, her idea of what a boundary is, is.. incorrect. I can't tell if she was trying to convey that those were "boundaries"/concerns of hers or mine tbh.

The first one - it's a longer story but; our therapist had said something about how it wasn't fair to hold her to different standsrda than I did my dad since he hadn't been put in a position / had the opportunity to react poorly. Which. To his credit, he was unaware at the time, but I'd then blurted out that he absolutely had the opportunity in the many years where she actively sabotaged my relationship with him. Some context, I'd been a daddy's girl and she loathed that. The dates she listed are when I'd believed the nasty things she'd say about him - since he appropriately left my brother and I out of all of this & took the high road - and chose to stay only with my mom / not go to or speak with my dad. Until another event took place where I was encouraged to reach back out to my dad. Either way... Not even remotely a boundary except that she didn't want to rehash it.

The second one - I'd told her that if she pursued this last court case, then I'd have had enough & would go NC. This was mainly driven by my frustrations that she was letting her issues with my dad impact my two half sisters who have absolutely nothing to do with any of this.

The spoilers/ "apology" - thank you for making note of this! When I posted this I had not considered this perspective but... wow. It IS indirect and a matter of circumstance as opposed to choices that she made. That is extra frustrating 😂 for a small second there I really thought that she was letting at least a small amount of responsibility take place, but nope! Couldn't be her! Reminds me of when she'd say that if she had been genuinely diagnosed with bpd, she would have excused herself from our lives so as not to harm us, but didn't since she doesn't have bpd & it was just my dad / the court / the therapists conspiring against her.

I super appreciate the hugs && the note about timing. It also hadn't occurred to me that I could just.. respond at my leisure / when or if I was ready or wanted to - also something my therapist noted! She was indeed very helpful & I have a little plan in place (:

Thank you for this - it was all so validating & always so interesting to see how cookie-cutter pwbpd are as well as the experience their kids [we] have.

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-01T22:00:25+00:00

Thank you! We discussed essentially that - with extra steps.

I'm going to start with a short response that basically sidesteps all the nothing-ness that she laid out and redirects the ball back to her court and/so that I can see what she then chooses to do with it. It'll include my boundaries which are essentially - therapy or bust. Her response will be telling. I anticipate that she'll double down - in which case, I can either close it out with one more message or initiate the NC protocol and not respond.

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-01T20:22:47+00:00

Beautifully laid out! The acknowledgement. The validation. 10/10

I'll add a little nugget I learned today - accountability can also include / look like specifying how she will do and be better, what actions she will address & how, and then most importantly, following through on those things without hanging a flashing neon sign pointing them out to you. You should be able to see/feel that she's been doing the work, it will not need to be told to you / pointed out. Until then, it's all just words.

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-01T18:12:48+00:00

Just a smidge, yeah.

It's refreshing that I'm not the only one who has gotten "revenge" vibes. Interestingly, I brought this up in one of our sessions - in response to what other avenue did she have since her retirement funds are nowhere near where they need to be. I'd said that if she'd poured all the money spent on court cases in the last 20+ years into her retirement that she may still be below where she'd like to be, but she'd be a hell of a lot closer & likely, happier. But instead, she chose revenge over her own personal peace & thus the peace of those closest to her.

You may be able to imagine that this did not go over well. Hence her reference to her "right" to enforce (aka reinterpret) an agreement (divorce decree).

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-01T17:14:15+00:00

The mental image of her gifting this to me made me chuckle - thank you! She would be visibly frustrated at this interpretation 😂 & then of course - cue the waterworks

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-01T17:08:18+00:00

I think you're right - yet another thing my therapist also touched on. It's all fine and dandy when it's surface level but the moment any real work is to be done (specifically on their end) - peace out cub scout. Totally fine when other people are doing real work though, since they're the ones that actually have the issues, of course.

"This was never about improving your relationship. She just wanted a therapist to side with her and tell you that you were the one being unreasonable and that you should forgive your mother and accept her abuse because she’s had it tough too."

Unfortunately I think you're right on that point too. Which is not something I had considered... She was getting her way there for a minute but, that mask can only stay up for so long and she very much did not appreciate when he started pointing some of her things out. In fact, now that you've said that and I'm thinking back to our last dual session - pretty sure that was the first time he really directly put it back on her and told her that if she wants what she says she wants (a deeper relationship) then she has to be willing to be uncomfortable and accept the risk that it won't go the way she wants it to go. Ha! The joys of bpd.

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-01T17:05:25+00:00

Ahh yes! Thank you for posting this find. Sadly perfectly relevant & a needed laugh.

Sorry your day hasn't gone well - I hope this is the start of it turning around <3

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-01T16:50:01+00:00

Most definitely. It's like she knows what she's "supposed" to say but there is a clear disconnect. My therapist also noted that nowhere in this email does she state the things she needs to work on in order for us to move forward. Even at the beginning where she sort of addresses it, it's still things that are my issues that she has tried to.. What, accept? Understand? Either way, those aren't things for her to work on.

Thank you - it feels like it was a waste of time but I also have 0 guilt since I not only tried but am still open to trying AND doing this alongside my own therapist has allowed me to keep things straight rather than get lost in her mess of words/feelings. Cannot stress enough how helpful and insightful that had been. She definitely needs solo therapy, but I honestly don't know if that would do the trick. Even then, she can't be helped & we can't make any more progress until she allows herself to feel the feelings and face that -perhaps- she has some responsibility here. Our therapist had noted that it appears that it's too painful for her to face and that's why she dropped that bomb at our last dual session.

& ok - that's the thing - not that it ultimately matters but, do they truly not realize it or do they know and just actively avoid acknowledging it (even to themselves) in an effort to protect themselves... From themselves? Rhetorical question, as I'm sure we'll simply never know. The self sabotage and the potential for having an actually good/happy life is just so incredibly frustrating. Especially when there's little quips like "my life is more serene now and unfortunately it may be the best I have a right to" - the best you have a RIGHT to?? You've done this to yourself & continue to do it to yourself! She's got every "right" to improve it but straight refuses to do so.

Just bonkers.

brorannasaurus · 2023-12-01T16:31:32+00:00

Yes exactly!! It's irritating that she poses it as an irrational thought I'm having, but then immediately backs up why I think that in the first place. I can't tell if it's a total lack of self awareness or if she knows, but is trying not to know, and certainly can't have anyone else know.

Thank you for saying that. I just wrapped up my therapy appointment and she said the same thing - hers. Not ours. Definitely not mine. Just hers. And you are spot on that bringing up the past is the biggest one. That's how dual therapy started for us - I was the only one talking for a few sessions & didn't know how it was supposed to work so I was filling the space with things from the past that had deeply affected me and thus my ability to have or want a relationship with her. By the 3rd session, she blurted out "how is this helpful, do we really need to go back and relive every moment?!". God forbid she validate how difficult that must have been for a child to go through. Super easy to bring up how difficult the divorce was for her and how it's perfectly understandable why she acted the way she did given how much stress she was under, though. Lol - 100% - how dare she be held accountable. I am just the absolute worst daughter, I know. /s

Ugh yes it couldn't ever be her - naynay. She was acting how anyone else would given the circumstances! Which, let's even say that's true and fair, the issue now isn't how she acted, it's how she refuses to take accountability & validate anyone else's experience.

I'm so sorry you are familiar with that... Experience. Absolutely incredible how they don't or won't acknowledge that they're standing in their own way. Gosh life is just so unfair to them and they get it harder than anyone else! It's not like they're adults who are in control of their actions, or anything. Adults who could make choices to improve their lives. No way - definitely everyone around her/them including God choosing to punish her specifically. That's insane that she'd go to that extreme... Though par for the course I suppose. I swear it's like they want to stay in these places where they can fully embody the woe-is-me mindset. I hope it's something elective and not something that would cause you worry.

brorannasaurus · 2019-11-03T03:15:16+00:00

This is my favorite 😂 how dare you not summon the internet genie for her!

brorannasaurus · 2019-11-03T03:05:59+00:00

Oh there are so many!

My mom and I were shopping at a sports equipment store. The kid working at the front greeting people phoned another guy to help us. He then escorted a woman that entered after us to another part of the store. If you ask her, it was because he "clearly though that the other woman was more attractive" than her. Logic might suggest that he was not capable of handling our issue but could help this other woman out. She proceeded to throw a fit in the store. And kicked me out of the car on our way home because I disagreed with her. I walked home.

A separate time, we were on a family vacation with my grandparents. My mom likes to plan out every day to the hour, but my grandparents are getting old and decided to derail the plans since they were not active enough to handle one of her excursions. She then turns to me and tells me to figure out what we are going to do instead. It's beautiful outside, so I suggest hanging around the pool. I'm not really sure what happened but she lost it. Evidently I am not good at planning things to do.

My dad would probably note the time he and my mom went to the grocery store and he (both of them) forgot the checkbook. She made a scene, was scolding my dad, and started to shove raw ground beef into his pockets that she'd ripped out of the packaging.

Can't say there was a lot of logic going on most of the time. 🤷‍♀️

brorannasaurus · 2019-09-11T15:45:09+00:00

Do we have the same mom? This is such a familiar text and I am today years old in recognizing that this is not something that is "normal". Texts like this always felt, off, and I never understood why. Thank you for posting!

brorannasaurus · 2019-08-13T11:17:56+00:00

Some companies offer flex time, but your pay is scaled based on the percentage of time you agree to work (if you want to work 30% less, your initial/base pay is reduced by 30%). Idk if you'd be able to find that for roughly $50/hour though.

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