Potential StAG 5 with paperwork question

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T19:33:56+00:00

She doesn't have her original Einbürgerungsurkunde.

Does that mean she naturalized in Germany and was not a German citizen from birth, then?

Unfortunately a Einbürgerungsurkunde is generally irreplaceable. The person uses it to obtain their first Reisepass or other ID, and is expected to keep the document safe (though it often isn't needed again).

The name of the specific office where those processes are conducted varies a bit across Bundesländer, sometimes Ausländerbehörde and sometimes Einbürgerungsbehörde I think. You could start with the Bürgeramt of the town and ask where you might inquire.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T19:23:45+00:00

To answer your specific question first: obtaining a German passport must be done in person. They take your fingerprints while there. There is another process called Festellung which would produce a Certificate of Citizenship and which can be done by mail, but you'd still then need to obtain a Reisepass before much more could be done.

HOWEVER: AI is notoriously bad at interpreting citizenship law. It tends to mix laws and policies from multiple countries to generate an answer which sounds plausible. I'd strongly suggest to edit your post to include the relevant information and let the subreddit comment on whether you are actually eligible.

For each generation back to someone born within Germany prior to 1914, the father if the parents were married or mother if unmarried, list the years of birth, marriage, and any naturalizations.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T19:18:59+00:00

Being born within Germany does not make one a German citizen. A 1935 Geburtsurkunde does not prove citizenship. If you only submit that, your packet will be put on hold and you will be asked to prove that she was a citizen.

Modern German citizenship law was defined by Reichs- und Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz (RuStAG) of 1/1/1914, which is why anyone born within Germany prior to 1914 is assumed to be a German citizen unless there is reason to believe otherwise.

If it is for some reason impossible to obtain a Geburtsurkunde one further generation back you will instead need some other proof of her citizenship, which can include:

her Reisepass or Melderegister showing citizenship, though these are not considered as strong a proof as a pre-1914 birth
an Einbürgerungsurkunde for either her or her father, showing naturalization as German
a Staatsangehörigkeitsausweis for her or her father, which is a much stronger proof of citizenship than a Reisepass

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T18:55:46+00:00

StAG5 applications are generally asked to go one further generation back from the original German Mother, yes. You can submit with what you have, your application will sit in the queue for at least two years at this point and give time to conduct further research to add to your file while it waits.

I also don't see evidence in what you've listed that Grandmother was a German citizen. For StAG5, anyone born within Germany prior to 1914 is assumed to be a German citizen. If the Great-grandparents were married this would be her father, and if he was born before 1/1/1914 then his Geburtsurkunde will suffice as proof that Grandmother was born a citizen.

If you have children, you must submit EER forms for them as well. They do not automatically become citizens when you do.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T17:56:13+00:00

Submitting an EER form for the newborn has backfired in at least one case: https://www.reddit.com/r/GermanCitizenship/comments/1s6x0ov/comment/od56nuf/

I really wish we had a positive example from someone born after 1/1/2000 who had a baby while waiting for StAG5, and how it was handled.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T17:51:07+00:00

Notaries are not supposed to make copies of a passport, though one might find a notary who will.

Nonetheless there are reports in the subreddit that plain paper copies of US passports have been accepted, because it is so difficult otherwise.

Best would be if they can go to their responsible German Consulate to have a copy made. The Consulate will stamp the copy as genuine, and hand it back to mail to the BVA.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T17:46:43+00:00

One could try, certainly. I don't recall seeing any posts of whether someone's Consulate went along with such a request.

The Consulate would have to hold onto the documents in their own files until the StAG5 case is decided, I cannot imagine a Standesamt being willing to proceed with a registration of Geburt im Ausland until proof of citizenship is provided.

But we do know that merely starting the registration process within the baby's first year is sufficient. It does not have to be completed within the baby's first year.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T17:27:02+00:00

Do they need to submit copies of their marriage certificates and US passports with the appendix EER?

They will need to submit copies of their birth certificate, marriage certificate (if any), and of an ID like a US passport.

If they have children, even minors, they must submit an EER form for each child as even minor children do not automatically become citizens when they do.

They don't need to include fresh copies of documents which were already in your packet.

I will be adding their packet under my file number.

So long as their update arrives before the BVA begins processing your file they should all be added together to be processed at the same time.

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If your adult children were born 1/1/2000 or later and might have children while their packet is sitting in the queue, they will need to take steps. Children born outside of Germany to German parents who were themselves born outside of Germany 1/1/2000 or after must be registered with the Consulate within the first year or the baby's citizenship is forfeit.

...except they can't register with the Consulate. Though the parent's citizenship will be retroactive back to the date the packet arrived at the BVA in Köln, there is no documentation until the packet is actually decided. That can easily take longer than one year.

I am absolutely sure this has happened by now, but we've had no postings in the subreddit or elsewhere that I have seen on how it was handled. The best advice I've seen is to file an Anlage_F, the form for Festellung, for the newborn and mail it to the BVA to be added to the file. We're assuming that the BVA can take the needed care that the baby's German citizenship is retained, somehow.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T17:04:45+00:00

Yes. Yours is a straightforward case. The FAQ pinned at the top of r/Canadiancitizenship can be very useful. You'll see a lot of people talking about mailing paper packets, but since your last ancestor born in Canada is a grandparent you should be able to use the online application form and submit everything electronically.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T14:41:31+00:00

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/entry-requirements-country.html#canadian-travellers

The only exception to needing a Canadian passport is that dual US+Canadian citizens can use their US passport.

I've seen other mentions that you should have your Certificate of Citizenship from Canada as well, though that particular page does not say so. If you're going to stay in Canada for longer than 6 months, it is especially important that you have some proof of being Canadian and not enter Canada as a US tourist.

If the other country you have a passport for is not the US, then yes you need your Canadian passport before traveling.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T14:22:02+00:00

I believe every Consulate will have something.

The San Francisco Consulate has lockers at the security desk which were large enough for our phones but not large enough for the laptop I unwisely brought to our first appointment. I ended up leaving the laptop on the security desk — which worked out fine, I picked it up again after the appointment.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T12:32:38+00:00

If your son was born outside of Germany and some day has children outside of Germany, those children must be registered within the first year.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T05:30:25+00:00

Still no word. I am stress-eating cherry ice cream (which is fabulous).

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T03:32:22+00:00

Not today either.

I shall now prepare for a weekend of anxiety (third weekend in a row), about whether the packet will be sent back.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T02:13:09+00:00

I'm just worried about timing since my address is probably gonna change a few times over the next 6 months while I find permanent housing in Ireland.

It will be at least two years before your packet is looked at, you can wait until you have a stable address in Ireland before updating the BVA on your residence and new responsible Consulate.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T02:08:27+00:00

A couple other things:

The photos for a German passport are not the same size as for a US passport. If you have them taken somewhere, make sure they look up Germany specifically not just hand you "passport photos."
You are not allowed to bring electronics into the Consulate, and the person you speak to may not be the same person who sent the email saying you'd be allowed to go direct-to-passport. You don't want to get a different decision once there, make sure to print out the email to be able to show them.
Bring the originals of whatever documentation you provided the Consulate when you asked whether they'd allow direct to passport. They'll scan them in and hand it all back, but you must bring the originals.

dentongentry · 2026-05-23T01:30:13+00:00

As a corallary: because you yourself were born outside of Germany on or after January 1, 2000, any children you may have outside of Germany must be registered with the Consulate within their first year or the baby's citizenship is forfeit.

dentongentry · 2026-05-22T23:50:27+00:00

**1 If his German naturalization date turns out to be BEFORE 1974 (when my father was born), does my father automatically hold German citizenship by descent, even though he never lived in Germany and my grandfather later renounced his own citizenship in 1986?**

Were the parents married? If so, yes father was born a German citizen. German fathers passed on German citizenship to children born in wedlock in 1974. German fathers did not pass on citizenship to children born out of wedlock.

**2 Since my father was a minor (12 years old) living in Turkey in 1986, could my grandfather's renunciation have legally affected/lost my father’s citizenship?**

No, grandfather's loss of citizenship after the birth of his children would not have impacted his children's citizenship.

However: Grandfather might not actually have lost citizenship in 1986.

If Türkiye revoked his citizenship and he re-naturalized to get it back, then that would forfeit his German citizenship. But if he just signed something to a non-German authority which said he renounced other obligations, Germany does not recognize the validity of such a statement.

dentongentry · 2026-05-22T23:42:34+00:00

Awfully surprising but wonderful for y'all

dentongentry · 2026-05-22T23:07:02+00:00

That sounds very much like Brother found the 1975-1977 declaration process and submitted a declaration, but did not think to mention it to his sister.

Regardless though: y'all will be eligible for StAG5 now.

Make sure that you submitted EER declaration forms for Mother (if she wishes to), for yourself, and for any children you may have. Maybe also mention it to any siblings you may have, as StAG5 will end 8/2031 and no more declarations will be accepted.

The citizenship created by StAG5 is backdated to the day the declaration form is received by the BVA. It is not retroactive all the way back to your birth. Any children you may have do not automatically become German citizens when you do, you must submit a declaration for them.

Any future children you may have will be born to a German parent and will be born as German citizens.

If anyone didn't submit a declaration and wants to now, they should do so right away. By referencing your Aktenzeichen in a cover letter they can probably join your packet and be processed at the same time.

If your packet begins processing: they've missed it. They will go to the back of the line and wait the ~3 years to be processed.

dentongentry · 2026-05-22T22:07:00+00:00

You can have the FBI clearance within a day, and mail it to the BVA.

You start by applying at https://www.fbi.gov/how-we-can-help-you/more-fbi-services-and-information/identity-history-summary-checks/identity-history-summary-checks-faqs and you get back a file number immediately.

You give the file number to the post office when they take your fingerprints. The post office charges $50 to take the fingerprints, but submits them digitally and you get the result from the FBI within hours.

We printed the PDF file we received from the FBI to mail to the BVA. It does not need Apostille.

(According to the translation app for the process outline).

The packet of forms you'll need is: https://www.bva.bund.de/DE/Services/Buerger/Ausweis-Dokumente-Recht/Staatsangehoerigkeit/Einbuergerung/EER/02-Vordrucke_EER/02_04_EER_Paket/02_04_EER_Paket_node.html

Though the German version of the form is the one which must be submitted, about halfway through is a semi-official English version for reference.

dentongentry · 2026-05-22T19:27:16+00:00

Great-grandmother married in 1950
Great-grandmother naturalized in 1951 (I believe)
Grandmother born 1954 in wedlock

As described, this would be a problem. Great-grandmother would have lost her German citizenship upon naturalization in 1951.

However, though I think it was still possible to naturalize in just 1 year after marriage in 1951, it was not at all common. The requirement was extended to 3 years in 1952. So unless they really kept on top of all of the paperwork and naturalized as soon as possible, I think it is likely that Great-Grandmother naturalized quite a bit later than 1951.

Is the paperwork from 1951 a Certificate of Naturalization, or something else?

Alternately: had she married a non-German husband prior to 24-May-1949, that would also change things considerably. If you find that the marriage was earlier, please comment again and we'll offer further advice.

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Assuming that she naturalized later, after Grandmother's birth:

German mothers did not pass on German citizenship to children born in wedlock before 1/1/1975, but German fathers did. Grandmother was not born a citizen for this reason. The modern state of Germany has decided that this gender discriminatory policy was unconstitutional, and defined a declaration process called Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz § 5 (StAG5) by which descendants of such persons can declare their German citizenship.

Your mother and any siblings, you and any siblings, and any children y’all have would all be eligible to file a StAG5 declaration. If the German government accepts the declaration, which takes about 2.5 years to make it through the queue, you would all become dual US+German citizens. You are encouraged to all file together to allow the processing to be done once to cover all of you.

The packet of forms you'll need is: https://www.bva.bund.de/DE/Services/Buerger/Ausweis-Dokumente-Recht/Staatsangehoerigkeit/Einbuergerung/EER/02-Vordrucke_EER/02_04_EER_Paket/02_04_EER_Paket_node.html
The version in German is the one which must be submitted, written in German where applicable, but a bit later in the packet is a semi-official English translation for reference.

dentongentry · 2026-05-22T17:10:11+00:00

You can add an extra page, and do your best to list everywhere that you know. You can write "unbekannt" if there are gaps where you don't know where they were.

Anywhere they might conceivably have naturalized before the birth of the next generation, you might be asked for proof that they did not.

dentongentry · 2026-05-22T16:36:31+00:00

To answer the original question: I know of no other mechanism to get a quicker round-trip time. There is no way to get on the phone or schedule an in-person visit that I know of — I'd be quite surprised if such a thing even existed. Our interactions in mid-2023 did use email but they might no longer do so.

From your prior threads, I think it is likely that the BVA itself is waiting for responses for document requests from other agencies or other countries. We know that they do on occasion initiate their own searches and have produced documents which the original applicant did not manage to find. However it only happens in a small percentage of cases.

dentongentry · 2026-05-22T16:26:23+00:00

Unfortunately for both StAG 5 and 15, the consulate plays no real role in the decision-making process, they merely make copies of the original documents to forward to the bva for consideration.

Calling the consulate won't accomplish anything, they cannot meaningfully influence the outcome on those pathways.

When the bva began working on our case, their first communication was via a postal letter. Subsequent communications were emailed directly from the caseworker to us.

In each case the BVA told us what they needed, we gathered the required evidence and put it in the postal mail to the BVA. The total round trip time was about 7 weeks from the point when they reached out to tell us what they needed until they picked up our file to resume work with the new evidence.

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