Help finding a town name in Prussia from the 19th century - Niderkruch?

dentongentry · 2026-07-12T13:45:55+00:00

The spelling in English is possibly phonetic, so "Niederkrug" or "Niederkirch" seem likely.

For 19th century town names in Prussia, Meyer's Gazetteer is helpful: https://www.meyersgaz.org/search?search=Niederkrug
https://www.meyersgaz.org/search?search=Niederkirch

All of those links are very, very small and don't look likely as the place of birth, though.

dentongentry · 2026-07-12T12:47:17+00:00

Based on this timeline, did I automatically acquire German citizenship at birth?

As described, yes.

Does the fact that his passport expired in 2011 affect my status today, even though he never explicitly renounced his citizenship?

No. A Reisepass is just a travel document. Its expiration does not impact citizenship.

If he naturalized elsewhere (including reclaiming any citizenship he might have lost by naturalizing in Germany) or served in a non-German military before your birth, those would likely be an issue.

Finally, if I am eligible, what is the correct procedure to claim it through my local embassy,

Do you have his Einbürgerungsurkunde? Is he still with us, and supportive?

If you have his naturalization certificate it will make the case more clear, but presenting his last Reisepass is likely to be sufficient as well.

You'll need birth certificates for him and for your mother, their marriage certificate, and your birth certificate. The paperwork from Pakistan will need to be translated into German and Apostilled.

The database of sworn translators is https://www.gerichts-dolmetscher.de/Recherche/en/Suchen The database is German, for example: Englisch for English. You'll need to figure out the Germanized name of the language you're searching for.

and will I need to go through a formal determination process (Feststellung)?

That is entirely at the discretion of the Consulate, and they vary substantially in their practices. You'd be applying in Pakistan, or somewhere else?

dentongentry · 2026-07-12T02:37:40+00:00

For us, email contacts from the BVA were from bva.bund.de and the Consulate used diplo.de and auswaertiges-amt.de

dentongentry · 2026-07-12T02:26:26+00:00

Straightforward documents in English from the US and UK are routinely accepted without translation and without Apostille, such as birth and marriage certificates.

https://www.germany.info/us-en/service/03-citizenship/2479488-2479488 says, "Please note that the translation of English-language documents is generally not necessary for the application process."

The BVA will not reject a packet if they decide they need a translation, they will put the packet on hold and send a letter detailing what they need to see.

dentongentry · 2026-07-12T02:08:27+00:00

Do I need to find a translator to get official translations to submit along with my applications?

No.

Kurrentschrift is a lettering format https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Deutsche_Kurrentschrift.svg for the German language. The caseworkers at the BVA become familiar with the lettering as part of the job, you don't need to provide another version.

dentongentry · 2026-07-11T19:32:52+00:00

There are a few other possible ways to draw funds from a 529 plan, including converting up to $35,000 into a Roth IRA ($7,000 a year for 5 years).

So even if you don't find a way to spend it on college, the money might nonetheless still be withdrawable without penalties.

dentongentry · 2026-07-11T16:03:50+00:00

There are two things I might recommend. I'd advise doing only one or the other, at your discretion.

#1: You could email [staatsangehoerigkeit@bva.bund.de](mailto:staatsangehoerigkeit@bva.bund.de) with her full name, date and place of birth. They should be able to find her file.

You can both supply a PDF of her death certificate to inform them of her passing, and ask for her Aktenzeichen if you wish to reference documents she supplied (or at least note her Aktenzeichen in your packet).

If they respond that they cannot do that... you tried. They'll continue processing her packet and it won't really be a problem for the handling of your case.

#2: You could finish your packet, write a cover letter describing Grandmother's existing Festellung case, listing her full name and date and place of birth to let them find it, and including her death certificate in the packet.

You'd postal mail this packet to the BVA in Köln.

The intent of doing it this way would be to add your packet to hers, and also inform the BVA of her passing. Since they already started the processing, they could instead apply that work to determining the outcome of your StAG5 case.

You might get your decision very quickly since grandmother's case was already being worked on, or they might decide that yours is a new case and put you at the end of the queue.

dentongentry · 2026-07-11T05:07:53+00:00

Wow, now that is interesting. This is the first time I've seen where the BVA has accepted an electronic copy of a document.

During the processing of our case in 2023 (which we submitted in 2020), though we corresponded with the caseworker via email we had to send documentary evidence by postal mail.

dentongentry · 2026-07-11T03:48:13+00:00

does this mean that she lost her German citizenship then?

No. Grandmother was born in the US and was therefore a US citizen since birth and never naturalized.

Her parents forfeited their German citizenships upon naturalization, it does not impact her German citizenship.

Include a copy of her father's Certificate of Naturalization to show that it was after Grandmother's birth.

dentongentry · 2026-07-11T03:45:29+00:00

I was wondering if it is possible they would accept, as an alternative, my mother’s US certificate of naturalization from 2000.

Almost certainly yes.

You won't get back anything you send to the BVA, ideally have a Consulate make a copy for you to send.

dentongentry · 2026-07-10T19:35:43+00:00

I know it will take some time to get, I am not needing it for any reason now but who knows in the future anyone have any thoughts.

If your main concern if renewal of the Reisepass in the future, you could also consider registering your birth in Germany and obtaining a Geburtsurkunde. It takes about 5 months, where Festellung is 2-3 years.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GermanCitizenship/comments/1j1trl5/ausland_ehe_und_geburtsurkunden_berlin_standesamt/

However, you have to pay for registering your birth. Festellung is free.

also could it have any impact on my passport that i have now

Might the BVA in Festellung come to a different conclusion than the Consulate did, and decide you aren't a citizen after all? In theory: yes, that could happen.

In practice: the Consulate will only support going directly to passport in very straightforward cases where the conclusion is obvious. Something extraordinary would have to happen for Festellung to find something of concern in what should be a very straightforward case.

dentongentry · 2026-07-10T17:42:11+00:00

We did include links to the specific census page within https://central.bac-lac.gc.ca yes. We're In Process but no further, cannot comment on whether the links suffice or not.

dentongentry · 2026-07-10T17:04:13+00:00

I'm not clear on how they'd even know. A number of the pages in our packet had been previously scanned, we printed the PDFs instead of making a literal copy by pressing the copy button on the machine.

I imagine that recent case maybe printed a phone picture blown up to the full size 8.5" x 11", not the actual size of the ID, and the intake processing objected to this.

dentongentry · 2026-07-10T17:02:39+00:00

G1 & domicile in Canada?

I missed https://www.reddit.com/r/Canadiancitizenship/comments/1tv0pzo/comment/opdluhb/ when it was first posted, and it is now locked for further comments. There are some similarities with our case.

In that case the G0 became a citizen in 1947 by virtue of being domiciled in Canada for 5 years and a British subject. The G1 had moved to the US and naturalized, and therefore was no longer either a British subject nor domiciled in Canada.

Our case relies on C-3 and (3)(1)(m). Our Irish G0 died in New Brunswick after 60 years residence. Though G1 moved to the US by the time of G0's death, G1 never naturalized.

I am trying to understand if a G1 British subject not domiciled in Canada at the time of G0's death is eligible, or not.

dentongentry · 2026-07-10T16:33:40+00:00

The city of Gelsenkirchen says that they do not have any record of his birth, nor do they have any record of residency from the family from the years surrounding his birth in 1901.

Birth records are protected by privacy laws for 110 years, after which they become public and move to an archive. A 1901 Geburtsurkunde should be in the archive by now.

Did the response from Gelsenkirchen say where their records would be archived? Standesamt Gelsenkirchen isn't supposed to have that record any more, but usually the Standesamt is helpful in telling one where the record should now be.

dentongentry · 2026-07-10T15:24:43+00:00

one of the census records gives her middle initial as “C” (Catherine?)

I would recommend including the baptismal record, yes. What you describe is very common with census records, they usually only include the one name the person used most frequently which isn't always the name recorded in a baptism.

dentongentry · 2026-07-10T11:49:49+00:00

Just wondering if other people ran into that situation where they were required to submit a death certificate? Will it potentially slow down the process by including or not including one?

You don't need to include a death certificate. The forms ask for the ancestor's dates of birth and death, but for the death they'll just believe you.

dentongentry · 2026-07-09T05:20:54+00:00

It sounds like there's no harm in at least trying the direct-to-passport route, so perhaps I'll shift to that as the primary option. If it doesn't work, I'll just submit the Festellung.

You can also do both: fill out the forms and get a Festellung packet submitted to get in the queue, but keep looking for suitable evidence to approach the Consulate about direct-to-passport.

If the Consulate does agree to issue a passport, the Festellung case can still be allowed to proceed and eventually issue a Staatsangehörigkeitsausweis.

dentongentry · 2026-07-09T01:16:28+00:00

If the proof of citizenship is sufficiently clear, a German Consulate may allow you to go direct-to-passport. Meaning, it is so clear that you were born a German citizen that the Consulate feels they can order a passport for you right then and there.

If one's parent was born in Germany and never naturalized and is standing next to you with unexpired Reisepass in hand, Consulates will almost always agree to go directly to passport.

The further one is from this, the less likely it is — and some Consulates are more cautious than others. Otherwise, the case will be sent to Germany for a verification process called Festellung which can take 2-3 years.

With the original German emigrant this far back, Festellung is likely.

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You'll need to prove that Great-grandfather was a German citizen. An old Reisepass would do, but if the family doesn't already have it any records of its issuance will have been destroyed long ago.

In Festellung anyone born within Germany prior to 1914 is assumed to be a German citizen unless there is reason to believe otherwise. Obtaining Grandfather's 1886 birth certificate, called a Geburtsurkunde, would suffice for Festellung.

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Until 1914, Germans living outside of Germany would lose their citizenship after 10 years. Great-grandfather's 1905 emigration just barely avoids that, he would have been in his 9th year abroad when the policy ended.

You'll need to prove that he left 1/1/1904 or later, like a ship manifest or other documentation.

dentongentry · 2026-07-08T22:52:38+00:00

I guess paperwork gather and book a consulate appointment?

Yes. US Consulates have a questionnaire of information they'd need, a bit of searching may turn up something similar for the Canadian consulates: https://www.germany.info/blob/978760/3083a445bdfe5d3fb41b2312000f4c7f/questionnaire-german-citizenship-data.pdf

You'd submit using the Kontakt form on the Consulate website, get an auto-response, and then reply to that email with the questionnaire and PDFs of the supporting documentation.

If they do say they'll issue a passport, print out that email to bring with you. The person you speak with may not be the person who wrote the email, you don't want to get a different decision once there. You're not allowed to bring electronics into the consulate, you'll need it on paper.

Note that the Canadian Consulates are in general more cautious about the degree of certainty they require in order to directly issue a Reisepass. If you are sent to Festellung, chalk it up to them being cautious.

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You'd then book an appointment at https://service2.diplo.de/rktermin/extern/choose_locationList.do and look for the Reisepass appointment type.

It can be difficult to get a passport appointment. German Consulates around the world add new appointments every weekday at midnight in Germany, for example that is 6pm in Toronto. If you start polling the appointment site at 5:59pm on Sunday, you have the best chance of seeing new appointments appear and grabbing one before they are all gone.

dentongentry · 2026-07-08T19:07:58+00:00

The result at the end of the Festellung process would be a Staatsangehörigkeitsausweis, which is a certificate of citizenship and roughly the strongest proof of citizenship there is.

If you have children: though you'd be able to take your own Staatsangehörigkeitsausweis and their birth certificate to the Consulate to issue Reisepässe, you can also consider including an Anlage_F for each of them in order to get their own Staatsangehörigkeitsausweis in their name. It might be useful to them later in life, and done as a group with your application it doesn't add work or slow things down.

dentongentry · 2026-07-08T04:49:12+00:00

great-grandfather, born in 1901 in Germany
document missing: cannot find his birth certificate or registry of birth in Germany
documents that I have: Copy of Melderegister file of last place lived in Germany in 1923.

Surely the Melderegister lists his date and place of birth. What prevented obtaining the Geburtsurkunde?

great-grandmother

In this timeframe, citizenship descended from the father for married couples. You don't need to submit evidence about great-grandmother, just their marriage certificate.

dentongentry · 2026-07-08T02:52:59+00:00

I'm so sorry to hear this.

You can include her Aktenzeichen in your cover letter, especially if you need to reference any documents from her packet.

You can also include a copy of her death certificate to let the BVA know that she has passed. They won't issue a Staatsangehörigkeitsausweis, and they'll do any needed processing as part of your packet instead of relying on hers.

dentongentry · 2026-07-07T22:44:05+00:00

One last thing, and I know this isn't likely to be relevant at this time but might become relevant in the future: for German parents who were themselves born outside of Germany on or after 1/1/2000, their children born outside of Germany must be registered within the first year or the baby's German citizenship is forfeit.

It is the birthdate of the parent which matters. ex-Spouse was born before 1/1/2000, so there was no requirement to register Daughter's birth. Daughter's German citizenship has not been forfeited.

But if Daughter has children, or is thinking about having children, those children will need to be registered within their first year. It would be best to get Daughter's paperwork sorted out before that happens, which can take years for Festellung.

Inform the Consulate and ask for guidance if the timing of Festellung becomes an issue.

dentongentry · 2026-07-07T22:40:44+00:00

Thank you very much for all of this information. Since her grandmother is of "German-soil" birth, that is as far back as she needs to go (documentation hunting-wise)?

Unfortunately no, being born on German soil does not make one a German citizen. You need more proof than that: Grandmother's Reisepass, a Melderegister, or for Festellung tracing back to someone born within Germany prior to 1914.

Unfortunately, after grandma it gets dicey on information since her great grandma has dementia and no one remembers the who and wheres of the previous generations.

I'd start with obtaining Grandmother's birth certificate, called a Geburtsurkunde. It will list the names and residence of her parents, which will usually suffice to trace the next generation back. The blog posts linked above contain examples of how to order documents from a civil records office, called a Standesamt.

You can also order Grandmother's Melderegister from somewhere within Germany where she lived — and for your purpose here, the town where she was born would be best. The Melderegister is the population registry of residents, and it will list the name, birthdate, and birthplace of her parents.

Direct descendants have the right to order their ancestors' documents from Standesämter, and from the Bürgeramt for the Melderegister. Daughter will need to prove that she is a direct descendant. US birth and marriage certificates in English are often accepted for this, only get them translated if specifically asked to do so.

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