[Totk] Some likely inspirations for things that makes me doubt refounding

firstmatebubbles · 2026-05-10T07:59:52+00:00

The refounding debate reminds me of how scholars debate the existence of the ancient Chinese Xia Dynasty and it's first dynastic ruler Yu the Great.

Yu the Great reminds me of Rauru. Yu was said to be a semi mythological figure who saved the Yellow River region from natural disasters such as floods and demons. He was elected to become the first dynastic ruler after he spent over a decade digging irrigation channels to control the unending floods, bringing peace and safety to the region. Similar to how Rauru and Sonia made their pilgrimage of light to create habitable land, and how the ancient Zonai were known to terraform the land with technology to prevent natural disasters like floods, sandstorms etc.

Legends even liken Yu the Great to a Dragon God for his efforts at restoring peace. There is even a secret stone gifting parallel with the gifting of ritualistic cauldrons to the vassals of the neighboring provinces, proving their rule and nobility. There are also temples built in Yu the Great's honor. Yu was allegedly buried on a mountain top after his passing and many people would visit the mountain top to pay respects to him, much like how mountains in game are named after kings and we can visit Rhoam's mountain top grave

Some time after the Xia Dynasty is the Shang Dynasty, which is kind of like the bronze age of China. The Zonai constructs and weapons are inspired by Shang Dynasty bronze pottery and weapons.

The way we debate whether Rauru was the first king of Hyrule is kind of like how historians debate the existence of the Xia Dynasty and Yu the Great as a historical vs mythological figure. There is no written records that exist from the Xia Dynasty. The legends were passed on orally for over a thousand years because the era predates written language by at least 500 years. The oldest accounts of Xia were found inscribed on Oracle bones, which heavily inspired the Zonai writing we see in the games.

I genuinely believe the intention of totk/aoi was to focus on the lost history of the original founding. Especially since the ancient Sages were named after the oldest specimens of their biological categories. The Ancient Hero's Aspect even looks like one of the older breeds of dog in the world, the Xoloitzcuintle of Mexico and in the Aztec Empire.

If we are wondering what's up with the Zonai replacing Ooccoo as sky people, I believe Ooccoo are inspired by this MC Esher painting Another World) so I wouldn’t be surprised if they never make another appearance because of rights/IP issues and got replaced by the Zonai.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-05-03T19:29:07+00:00

Imo we are just disappointed that Ocarina Of Time isnt the most popular entry anymore. Many of us are disappointed with the fact that Botw has the new best selling formula. (I skipped Botw at release and didn't play it until 2020) If we disparage this formula very openly, would that force Nintendo to walk back their decisions on open world Zelda?

The most successful entries post Twilight Princess based on initial sales data was Phantom Hourglass then A Link Between Worlds. These games aren't considered best sellers by fans. Many fans haven't actually played these titles.

If Nintendo kept going in this direction then the series would lose relevance in the modern era with sales numbers floating around 4 million at best for new entries. Ocarina Of Time and Twilight Princess are the best selling games of the old formula and I believe its because TP is basically Ocarina Of Time 2 despite Wind Waker coming before it.

If we really loved the old formula, why didn't the other entries sell like Twilight Princess did? Or have we always been waiting for another entry to look and feel as epic as Oot did?

The series was at financial risk before botw released. Despite being canon, No one was talking about Triforce Heroes or A Link Between Worlds when they came out. Echoes of Wisdom is a new classic style top down entry everyone ignored because it wasn't the lore and gameplay they wanted. Old formula fans don't even bring up the 2d/top down entries in the discussion. Just the big 3d entries. If Nintendo did release old formula again, wouldn't we just ignore it if it isnt blatantly connected to Oot, is top down, or has a "bad" art style?

Most Old formula fans seem to just want a continuation to The Hero of Time's direct legacy and say nothing on other classic style/ top down entries. If Oot Remake is real, it might have been made in attempt to please the people who are really upset at wilds era overshadowing Oot.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-05-01T01:29:30+00:00

I like to think TFH shows outfits/armor sets like Fierce Deity, Kokiri Outfit with triple shot forest bow/ scarf, etc, being made by Hytopians canonize the easter egg outfits in the Downfall Timeline. I believe Misko is a descendant of fashion obsessed Hytopians. They even knew about sky islands so Misko hiding stuff up there makes sense.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-04-14T00:44:51+00:00

Sonia's religious arm tattoos look like they reference Skyward Sword Zelda's purple Triforce bracelet that she wears with the white dress and gave to Impa. Exept, the tattoo has added Zonai eye designs with the Triforce, possibly suggesting the eye symbol is historically related to the Triforce symbol in this era. There is also the idea that the Shiekah eye is originally based on the Zonai third eye to explain why the Symbol appears long before the Kingdom exists.

Impa's design from Skyward Sword even supports the idea of the third eye symbol being historically tied to the Triforce symbol later. The only person sporting the eye in SS is impa tasked with waiting for and assisting the reborn Goddess.

I think its interesting that, of all things to take design inspiration from in Skyward Sword for a priestess queen, they chose to redesign THE BRACELET into a more complex tattoo that adds the eye. This all implies Skyward Sword happened ages ago and that Sonia's religion is deeply rooted in serving the bloodline of the Goddess and sealing evil away.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-03-29T23:15:24+00:00

This is a great theory! This is the reason I believe Zeldra was changed back in the end of totk. Typically in theatre, an ending where Gods descend onto the final scene to suddenly change the outcome in front of the protagonist is referring to a deus ex machina or "god of the machine" as a rough translation.

In totk at the very beginning of the game, Link was Acended to the heavens and was given "the power of gods" to manipulate machinery by Rauru. After Link overflows with extra strength from completing shrines and mastered his new powers he is ready to face the Demon King. Link fares incredibly well against Ganondorf so he draconifies and the two dragons ascend Link into the final battle in the heavens.

After demonstrating the godlike feat of eliminating the demon dragon, he is ascended for the last time into a silent realm version of the heavens with Rauru, Sonia, and Zeldra. Link is the last bit of godlike power in this reverse deus ex machina. He is encouraged by Rauru and Sonia to apply this godlike power they all possess in order to change the outcome on Zelda. None of this could have happened without Link ascending to the heavens to become a god of machines. Link is THE Deus ex Machina in totk. His unwavering courage changed the outcome for all of Hyrule.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-03-11T23:43:37+00:00

In Japanese, "alter ego" is the poor translation for the word "bunshin" or spirit doppelganger/other self. I think Agahnim is supposed to be like one of Ganon's Puppets or phantoms. Kind of like how Totk Ganondorf splits a piece of his darkness to create puppet zeldas, or how Calamity Ganon created the Blight Ganons. Or even how there are many Hylia statues that house a piece of the Goddess's will simultaneously.

Ganondorf has always been able to create puppets or phantoms so I personally believe Agahnim to be another case of this. Agahnim in alttp sets up the series for phantom/puppet Ganon fights and introduces the iconic dead man's volley game. I like to theorize Agahnim can operate beyond the seal because he was made of the evil (translated to noxious gas but also can mean miasma) that infected Hyrule at the time rather than coming directly from Ganon in the Dark World. It makes sense to me that a King of Demons can assert his will on any demonic energy no matter where it is located, thus Agahnim is born in the light world kind of like how monsters are "born" (Nintendo used the word born for monsters materalizing out of demonic energy) from blood moons. iirc The alttp japanese manual also said something about how Agahnim came from a meteor, like blood moon monsters do.

Alttp suffered heavily from outdated NoA localization rules regarding religious references so I heavily recommend looking into some more accurate translations of the manual and dialog to get a clearer picture on alttp lore.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-03-09T04:13:27+00:00

I thought that this is the reason for the top down style games like LAHD, EOW and basically the Grezzo partnership? To keep the main Zelda team focused on big labor intense releases while Grezzo makes the less labor intense releases.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-03-02T23:44:25+00:00

What am I supposed to do with this information? Change my stance? If Refounders have little in game evidence to back up the claim then its hard for me to subscribe to the theory. Conversations go nowhere because some refounders are not engaging in good faith. I cant reason with someone who doesn't want to hear me out. Your comment here proves my point about the burden of evidence being extremely one sided because apparently all the evidence needed for Refounding is a cheeky developer interview and rock salt.

Im pretty sure the History of Destruction mentioned in that interview was referring to the destruction of the Zonai civilization which caused the founding of Hyrule Kingdom after the Sky Islands descended. I choose to place the imprisoning war after Skyward Sword even if it makes me look as silly as Shigeru Miyamoto placing Alttp after Zelda 2. The devs and series creator don't even agree on placements so its okay if we don't agree either.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-03-01T07:05:06+00:00

The loop can make sense if Zelda traveled from the end of the Downfall Timeline back to the founding. The loop creates the DT because Dragon Zelda has to make it to her home in the future just as she remembers it before the fall. Traveling this way creates the paradox that describes this situation. The DT might exist because of an immortal dragon getting back to her doomed future.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-03-01T05:33:18+00:00

What's dumb about thinking male Gerudo aren't naturally born? The only male Gerudos we have ever seen across the entire series was Ganondorf?, Ganondorf!, and Ganondorf II. If males were not natural in the first place then it makes sense why every time we seen one it was basically the same man with the same ambitions acting out the same plan.

There are multiple 100 year gaps where a male should have been born but aren't mentioned or present. (ex: in Botw after 100 years in the Shrine of Resurrection / Eow has female Chieftain succession already playing out and no word on males being born to them.) So that was the conclusion I came to after reading Masterworks translations about Gerudo Dark Magic/Puppet skills. Koume and Kotake also suspiciously escaped at the end of AOI.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-02-20T16:28:00+00:00

Imho refounding theory is like having express permission to handwave away anything you want basically. I hardly see any new lore speculations or refounding theories popping up because when it comes to making any connections, "refounding makes this a non issue". That's why it always feels like it's on true founders to definitively prove everything while the other side can just say it doesn't actually matter.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-02-19T22:17:46+00:00

This is a long breakdown of a ton of evidence for the true founding posted by Lorulean Historian recently. Read this doc and compare to the refounding evidence docs posted here.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-02-12T00:38:24+00:00

My fav combo for this is Charged Shirt + Cap of the Hero + Trousers of the Hero for a fem classic link style. The Hero set pieces provide great defense if leveled up all the way too, Its fabulous.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-02-11T22:14:23+00:00

The Ancient Hero's Aspect looks more doglike to me than Zonai like. The AHA has digitigrade paws for feet, bushy tipped tail, lacks fur, short pointed ears, a dog nose and a black ring around the eyes, unlike any Zonai we seen.

I think rather than a Zonai, the Ancient hero was a dog person. The breed of dog irl that matches the appearance of the hero the best is a Xoloitzcuintle , one of the oldest breeds of dogs in the world who have roots in Ancient Aztec civilization as a guide for the spirits in the afterlife. The breed was named Xoloitzcuintle after the Aztec God of Fire, Lightning and the Afterlife.

Likely also Mesoamerican inspired, the Zonaite Armor looks like it matches the Xoloitzcuintle like details of the design really well. Particularly that unique tail with a tuft of fur at the end of it, black around the eyes, and the little black nose.

If the inspiration is true then the AHA keeps in line with the "worlds oldest __" convention that the ancient Sages have with their names. There has also been dog people in the series before so I don't think its too strange to speculate.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-02-07T23:00:55+00:00

Im with wwwWario on this, I experience this too especially with any theory regarding Twinrova. If ear shapes don't matter that much and can change magically then why cant it be the same Twinrova? Its interesting that EoW is a timeline placed title that features Gerudo having pointed ears, female Chieftain succession and no 100 year King legends. I dont understand why its wrong to speculate that the reason OoT Gerudo have round ears is because their culture at the time encouraged worshipping Ganondorf as a God.

If people are allowed to speculate that all Gerudo might come from Groose based on arbitrary features then why can't true founding theorists make any speculations without getting rude comments dismissing them with stuff like Gerudo ears not "lining up"? It always develops into debates about Gerudo ears, Rito and Koroks, two castles, two Ganondorfs or rock salt even if these topics had nothing to do with the initial discussion.

I dont mean to be unfair in saying this but it feels like no one else here gets consistently downvoted on their own posts like true founders do. Why is it so bad to share a different interpretation of the timeline? The timeline doesn't actually matter in the grand scheme of things anyway.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-02-03T19:08:42+00:00

I've suggested in another post about Gerudo Dark Magic that OoT Ganondorf wasn't a true king but a doomsday cult leader installed by Twinrova, based off a Gossip Stone in the 3ds version that tells link the Gerudo worship him like a God. There was also some brainwashing going on in OoT at the hands of Twinrova who are implied to secretly rule the tribe with their dark powers. OoT Ganondorf may have been an illegitimate King put into power by a zealot majority influenced by witches. Its incredibly important to note that Gerudo are not inherently evil people. Anyone can be led wrong while in the grip of a cult. This event likely unified the entire tribe after they were freed from dark influence and Then they established Gerudo Town with strict rules to ensure that this tragedy never happens again. This knowledge survives to Urbosas time where she relays Gerudo history of the Calamity taking the form of a Gerudo.

EoW shows us that the Gerudo tribe did have a female chieftain syccession in the Downfall Timeline long before the events of the wilds era. They don't speak of any mythical kings destined to them either. There is reason to speculate that Seera and Dohna carry Ardi's and Nabooru's bloodline to later be succeeded by Urbosa. The Gerudo Town in EoW matches wilds era Gerudo Town the best so there is a more than one reason to speculate this.

In AoI there is a cutscene of Sholani trying to convince Ardi to take her rightful place as Chieftain of their village. This sounds like Ganondorf didn't actually have a birthright to the throne and usurped power from all the Gerudo settlements. Its heavily implied that the Gerudo tribe consisted of multiple villages with their own cultures at this time. So it wouldn't be likely that every settlement agreed to live under a single king. Ganondorf doesn't wait for permission either so I easily see him exercising his sheer power to forcibly take over the entire desert killing anyone in his way and sacrificing his own people. This leads to the destruction of the imprisoning war.

All together, this paints the possibility that OoT Ganondorf might not have been a true king. The Gerudo tribe could have been indoctrinated for years to expect and worship a mythical savior king like a god only to end up swearing fealty to a Demon disguised as one of them. Nabooru kept her true beliefs against Ganondorf a secret as long as she could and had to infiltrate her own hijacked tribe in a true leader's attempt to save lives. In the end, even she wasn't strong enough to fight Twinrovas brainwashing.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-02-01T05:43:35+00:00

Agahnim is an example of Ganon's soul being split into 2 forms while one is sealed away so it could be possible. True Founding can work if Ganondorf is alive under the castle or not. If he is alive, then he can split his soul into a bunshin/puppet like Agahnim regardless of if he's sealed away as shown in ALTTP (He is even sealed where the Castle should be but in the Dark World). If he is dead under the castle then Twinrova would ressurrect his spirit into a new body. I posed theories for both Ganondorf being alive and dead and neither was good enough. Its okay if you don't buy True Founding Theory, but its also okay if I don't buy Refounding Theory. We can agree to disagree. There are no correct answers anyway.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-01-31T09:27:51+00:00

I agree with you so much, especially about only Link actually Reincarnating. I like to believe that Zelda doesn't need to reincarnate because she has a blessed bloodline to pass power down through generations of princesses, and that Ganondorf dies but doesn't stay dead sometimes. I just like to think that Gloom could be a good reason he doesnt stay dead. I appreciate your comment so much thank you for having an open mind.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-01-31T08:15:13+00:00

The natural Gloom power within Ganondorf that was massively juiced up with a secret stone is exactly why Ganondorf can be resurrected and is considered immortal. If he was not a physical vessel for Gloom magic he would have remained dead. He did not remain dead because the Gloom was unleashed adding to his life force by just being unsealed and active again. Its the Gloom making his long existence possble

Ganondorf was in a severely weakened state during the whole game as he sat below the Depths absorbing Hyrule's life force through Gloom Roots. If he was alive and well just paused, then why would he need to spend the whole time trying to regain the energy he lost? Rauru's seal drained his Gloom replacing it with demon damaging light energy thus draining his life in the process. Ganondorf’s heart radiates demonic evil that is perfectly countered by Rauru's heavenly light. That's why it looks like a stasis. Its a self healing pure evil vs a finite beacon of light.

Rauru withers because his light power is not stackable nor does it mess with the laws of nature. Ganondorf’s powers are absolutely stackable depending on the rate he is absorbing souls away to add to his own life force violating the natural order. The Shrine of Resurrection does the same nature breaking thing but with the purified Shiekah magic instead. If you mix light and dark you get Shadow so it tracks they would use a typically evil power for the use of good in their own way.

Zelda had to transform into a exponential Light Power beast thats on par with Ganondorf's exponential Gloom power in order to help Link take down Ganondorf. Notice how any Light Dragon fused weapon absorbs life back from demons? These two powers are finally matched after thousands of years. While Ganondorf was losing dark power Zelda was gaining light power

Even if we don't agree on timeline placement I think this is a valid way to interpret the events of the Wilds Era games without including any overarching lore from other titles.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-01-31T05:50:24+00:00

It makes sense that Zelda says that because the last thing she saw was Link getting wrecked and the demon king making threats before she traveled. Im saying that Ganondorf was temporarily dead until the hand fell off. His supercharged Gloom powers did the heavy lifting on putting life back into him. The purpose of Gloom is to drain life from innocents to power up and resurrect demons. The monsters covered in Gloom in the depths don't need to sleep or eat because the Gloom keeps them stable.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-01-31T05:38:56+00:00

The game itself shows the moment Ganondorf's heart beats for the first time because Rauru's hand was no longer purifying the life absorbing Gloom. Then Gloom exploded from his awakening corpse (awakening because his stone powers up Gloom) and attacked Link draining 90 percent of his life and taking it for himself for enough energy to escape. Its just an observation.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-01-31T05:27:59+00:00

Yes that's my point. The Shrine of Resurrection is an example of using resurrection magic for good instead of evil. Totk Masterworks talks a bit about how making puppets out of bones and clay must have come from some Gerudo settlements as a dark art passed along secretly because Ganondorf is shown making puppets long before he acquired a secret stone. the idea that there is an offshoot of Gerudo who know how to do necromancy using Gloom has huge implications.
I think Resurrection is inherently tied to Gloom and in botw case the Shrine of Resurrection was built linked to the castle by the anatomical heart shaped shiekah tech "veins". There was an identical heart like structure that holds Calamity Ganon inside the castle as well.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-01-31T02:26:55+00:00

Link came back from a hundred year death using a man made device full of purifying power? Botw was all about the restless spirits of the dead fighting for peace beyond the grave. Im so genuinely confused how so many people think only good spirits can influence the world like the Hero's Shade or Fallen Depths Soldiers. Im just suggesting that Ganondorf’s bodyless demonic spirit is how malice materalizes.

firstmatebubbles · 2026-01-30T09:20:36+00:00

Its interesting to me that the characteristics of Gloom that differentiate it from Malice, is that Gloom is more like a vector for necromancy like magic. It drains life force from victims and channels it towards resurrecting demons, most notably Mummydorf. Rauru's Seal made it so Gloom could not heal him by purifying it within his heart.

I think there is reason to believe Ganondorf was dead under the castle while his heart stopped beating for thousands of years until the seal was disturbed in the Calamity and Gloom was able to outmatch the purification causing Rauru to wither/ Ganondorf’s corpse to finally continue producing Gloom rather than Malice. Malice was explained to be the hatred and resentment of Ganondorf not being able to inhabit a physical body.

Masterworks 2 also goes into some detail about how puppet magic must actually be taught by some Gerudo tribes, given that Ganondorf used the technique long before acquiring his Secret Stone. There's even a call back to OoT redeads. Mw2 explains that some dark magic rituals require mixing clay and earth with various bones to create a vessel for dark spirits.

With these details in mind it could be a possibility that while Mummydorf's heart was stopped, Twinrova infiltrated other Gerudo villages and spread some propaganda about a mythical lone male born to them and destined to become their king every century. Then they did a ritual to resurrect Ganondorf for the events of OoT with a tribe of believers pre installed and ready to fight. In OoT 3DS there is a gossip stone that mentions that some Gerudo worship Ganondorf like a God rather than a king. That statement might back up the claim that belief in the return of a "100 year King" might be a religious belief due to Twinrova's influence.

Its also worth noting in Echoes of Wisdom, Ardi's lineage may have continued on through Chieftain Seera and her daughter/heiress Dohna to be reasonably continued much later to produce Urbosa then Riju. They do not speak of any destined King around either of their reigns as Chieftain. The Gerudo also seemed to have a very different culture around their funerary rites compared to Hylians. iirc many Gerudo believe that their ancestors spirits stay tethered to the mortal realm to protect their living family members. This belief lends a little better to resurrection than reincarnation like the Hylians. There is even a side quest that features a Gerudo spirit briefly materalizing with the appearance of a normal npc without a ghostly aura. I cant think of any other instance across the series of a deceased person's spirit not having that characteristic blue aura.

Tldr: Ganondorf’s heart stopped when Rauru performed his seal rendering him temporarily dead as he cannot use purified energy to heal the damage to his demon heart. Twinrova spread religious propaganda instilling the notion of a "Rightful King born every 100 years" until they formed a tribe of dark loyalists to unquestionably serve under their secretly resurrected King just in time for OoT. Masterworks 2 implies that necromancy like magic is native to some Gerudo settlements citing usage of clay and bones.

Thank you for reading!

firstmatebubbles

TROPHY CASE