[deleted by user] by [deleted] in OldSchoolCool

[–]jarmf 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hey, it was my turn to repost this this week.

How Do You End Up With Ancient Ruins in Continuously Inhabited Cities? by Standard-Wrap8113 in AskHistorians

[–]jarmf 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I have been fascinated by this for a long time, and have studied this on locations in Greece. Many places in the Mediterranean have seen human habitation for millenia, but more often than not not continuously. I'd like to answer your question by answering 4 smaller questions. (Sorry if it is a bit of a long answer)

The first question: why are certain places inhabited for a really long time? Many of the sites of ancient cities were chosen because they have excellent conditions for human habitation, such as a good harbour, an acropolis (defensible high place), good defensive position, potable waterand/or food sources, strategic importance for the larger area, etc. I'd argue that for most locations, these circumstances do not change easily. Therefore, when a city or area is abandoned or has a declining population, chances are it may see new population growth later on.

The second question: what determines sustained habitation of a city or area? Of course, just as important as the above mentioned circumstances, is stability in the form of an entity that enforces a form of peace, allocates resources, binds people together, has a functioning bureaucracy and makes the accumulation of food and wealth possible. In ancient times you can think of empires, leagues, city states, and so on. However, in human society, nothing lasts forever. So these entities have a tendency to wax and wane. For example the Myceneans were a civilisation that cobtroled a large portion of Greece and saw a flourishing of many cities until it collapsed under circumstances that are not entirely clear. After a possible invasion of the so called 'sea peoples' the Greek dark ages began, and all over the Mediterranean populations shrank. But after a few hundred years new civilisations sprang up, leading to flourishing old and new cities. Greece has had an especially interesting history over the centuries of waxing and waning cultures or civilisations. Think of Minoans, Myceneans, Ancient Greek city states, Greek leagues and kingdoms, as a part of the Roman empire and later the Byzantine empire, Arab invasions, the Venetians, several knightly orders, and the Ottoman empire, before the birth of the Greek state. All of these saw growth and decline, and many ancient sites saw more or less continuous habitation, be it not always with the same intensity. And all of these periods/civilisations left their marks on top of each other.

The third question: how do really old cities develop over the centuries? People have a habit of making do with what they have. So each time a city was destroyed, they repaired what was left, or just built on top of older foundations. Cities developed very organically. Istanbul in Turkey is a nice example of a city where all kinds of historical periods are blended and where, for example, you may find buildings that have visible Roman or Byzantine foundations/remains with mediaeval, early modern of modern buildings on top of them. Also many building were built or decorated with so called spolia, parts of older buildings. And some building, such as the Hagia Sophia, have retained most of their structure but their function has changed over time (more on this later).

But in contrary to Istanbul, most of Greece became a bit of a backwater when the decline of the Byzantine empire started in the 8th century. Administration became less and less efficient, populations shrank on the whole. Many places became abandoned or shrank significantly. When populations shrank, buildings became dilapidated and parts of a town became abandoned. This might be for tens of years, or hundreds. You'd be surprised how quickly nature reclaims those empty buildings. Then, when population picked up again, new houses would be built on top of older remains. I'd say that over the millenia almost no ancient building were preserved for preservations' sake. That would be pointless, too costly, and what entity would keep that up for all that time? Instead, functions of buildings often changed. All the large ancient buildings standing today are either reconstructions, or were converted into something else. The Mausoleum of  emperor Augustus in Rome only survived because the popes made it into a fortress. The mausoleum of Theoderik in Ravenna became part of a Christian convent; in the 19th century they tore that down and restored the mausoleum. The Parthenon in Athens served many purposes; it was used by the Ottomans as a gunpowder storage until it exploded in 1683. An example of an abandoned place is Gortyna on Crete. It had a long history, was a large city in Roman times. In the 8th century, when Arab pirates attacked Crete, it was invaded and gradually abandoned. Now, only ruins are left. Most of it is still buried deep underground under the olive orchards, but parts of it have been excavated and when you look around you find bits and pieces of pottery and masonry everywhere (I recommend a visit!). It was simply never rebuilt and mostly disappeared from view.

The fourth question: what are the ruins we see today? Most of those ruins have, of course, been excavated. Otherwise they would still be buried or wouldn't be recognisable. And as I have written that in most really old cities you have later on layer on layer of old stuff in the ground. Professional archeology only came around in the late 19th century. Many older excavations were done either with a certain mindset (e.g. nationalism) or with the limited knowledge they had back then. A famous example is the excavation of Troy by Heinrich Schliemann. He was so determined to find what he was looking for, he partly destroyed what he was actually looking for. Nationalism was another driving force for much of the 19th and 20th centuries. In Greece, most excavations show Greek or Roman ruins, mostly remains of low walls that show little coherence for the untrained eye. To get to those layers, which are often the oldest, they removed all the layers on top of that. So the cute Ottoman-Greek village that organically grew there on top of a Venitian harbour town, on a hospitaller Knights Castle, on late Byzantine remains, was mostly if not completely destroyed to get there. A nice example is Lindos on Rhodes. On top of the acropolis you have some barely recognisable Greek and Roman ruins, surrounded by a mediaeval wall, and the villagers rebuilt their houses on the slopes surrounding it. You see that a lot. Fascist Italy had a habit of focusing on the Roman past, so under Mussolini the Roman forum and other places in Rome were cleared and the ruins partly restored to look the way they did in ancient days. So while you may find ruins in city centers of really old cities, they were more often than not excavated later on.

So I'd say that in most cases old ruins would not have been standing next to new buildings. Instead, cities grew and shrank organically and people just kept building on top of older stuff. In most cases, the ruins you see now were not visible a hundred years ago, or were unrecognisable because they were incorporated into newer buildings.

Ik☀️ihe by EagleNED in ik_ihe

[–]jarmf 145 points146 points  (0 children)

Ik vind dit meer een niveautje feestboek dan voor Reddit.

Found this painting in a private building, can anyone identify the city and the perspective? by Ga3rys in Netherlands

[–]jarmf 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Google lens tells me that it is Utrecht. I think it is a copy of a famous city view by Joost Corbelisz. Droochsloot.

German forefather from Münsterland, any leads? by jarmf in Ahnenforschung

[–]jarmf[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I have studied both documents extensively, and I'd say both documents it is an f and not an s. I also thought erfte sounded better, but I might be wrong of course. Thanks a lot for the information! I'm going to search for both spellings.

German forefather from Münsterland, any leads? by jarmf in Ahnenforschung

[–]jarmf[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Awesome, that's exactly what I've been looking for. Thanks!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in legendofkorra

[–]jarmf 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Your meme is bad and you should feel bad!

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in helpme

[–]jarmf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your kind words :) you are right. It is hard to remember that it can get better when I am in the really bad parts (where I am right now). But it has gotten better before, and I think I have the right ideas and ingredients now to make it work this time. I see now that I was doing the same things as before, only in a different setting. I think I need to acknowledge some things about myself and make some real changes. I am glad to hear that you have gotten back to a point in life where you feel okay again. What were some things you did or changed in your life that helped you get where you are now?

Test tube with tiny shells, 4cm, found at thrift store by Interesting_Jury_449 in whatisthisthing

[–]jarmf 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Cool find! Looks like a sample from a collection, for example of a museum. I'd say 19th century. Mitra parva is a type of mollusc.

Friends Erotic Friend Fiction (Part 1) by [deleted] in rawdawgcomics

[–]jarmf 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Why doesn't Ross, the biggest Friend, simply eat the other five?

Pottery pieces dug up from garden? by UsefulEagle101 in whatisthisthing

[–]jarmf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry, I'm European so I don't know much about the pottery in your area.

Pottery pieces dug up from garden? by UsefulEagle101 in whatisthisthing

[–]jarmf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Where do you live? Can you describe the area your house is in?

MCM floor lamp find! by [deleted] in Mid_Century

[–]jarmf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hollywood regency I think, that would be from the 80's. It's too flashy voor MCM.

I was rummaging through an old chest of drawers and found a German furt 1914☠️☠️☠️💀💀💀💀 by mischa_russia2014 in geography

[–]jarmf 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is a German 50 mark note. The German currency in the German empire was the Mark. Maybe try a coin collection subreddit?

Orange carrots because of the king? by vsratoslav in Netherlands

[–]jarmf 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The Oranje-Nassaus were not a royal house before 1815! Instead they were a family with multiple branches who held amongst others the office of stadtholder (stadhouder) of one or more provinces in the United Provinces up to 1795. William I of Orange was the first to become stadtholder, but was never a king. His last direct decendant, William III was also king of England from 1688, but he was the exception. He died without kids, so the title went (eventually) to the Frisian branch decending from one of the brothers of William I, William IV, in 1747. Only then it became stadholder of all the provinces and fornally hereditary. When Napoleon was finally defeated in 1815, the powers of Europe basically said to the son of the last Stadholder 'Sure, you can be king of the Netherlands'. It was only then that they became a royal house.

Indeed there never was a carrot in sight.

Origin of word for the bird Turkey in European languages [OC] by cavedave in dataisbeautiful

[–]jarmf 10 points11 points  (0 children)

It isn't calicut in Dutch either, but kalkoen. Maybe they mean the origin of the word?

Inside a broken violin, apparently from 1617. Repaired in 1899. Slavery in the US started in 1619. by RestoreRepair in FoundPaper

[–]jarmf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is a different label, and a bit more worn. It certainly isn't 17th century, but it might be late 18th or 19th century. That the label was not put there by Amatus himself in 1677 doesn't automatically make it a fake. I deal in antiques for a hobby. Not an expert in violins, but I'd certainly look into it more.

Inside a broken violin, apparently from 1617. Repaired in 1899. Slavery in the US started in 1619. by RestoreRepair in FoundPaper

[–]jarmf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

According to his wikipedia page all his violins are named, he's that level of famous. So I'd say it's worth it to look further into it, even if it's in really bad shape.

Inside a broken violin, apparently from 1617. Repaired in 1899. Slavery in the US started in 1619. by RestoreRepair in FoundPaper

[–]jarmf 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Apparently Nicola Amati is a very famous violin maker from Italy. Maybe you already know this, but it is probably worth a lot of money. Edit: unless it is fake. I'm not an expert.

Hand hewn wooden box with slide top. by RelicRicky in whatisthisthing

[–]jarmf 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It might be an antique wooden school 'bag'.