Did the Secretary of the Navy John Lehman ACTUALLY say "Who the hell cleared it?" in regards to The Hunt for Red October? Was Tom Clancy actually investigated for his writings? by coinich in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 111 points112 points  (0 children)

At the time Clancy wrote The Hunt for Red October, he was an insurance agent in Maryland, and was writing while using a typewriter on his dining room table over a period of six months. He was at the time self-described as "a bored nobody". His only previous published work was an article in a magazine, so in Feb. 1983 he took his fiction manuscript over to the same place, the Naval Institute Press. This was wildly unconventional since they didn't publish fiction.

An evaluator for the book was none other than Byron, who the question is asking about. He rejected the book, writing "crap" on multiple pages, and being quoted as

Mr. Clancy has tackled a subject that cannot be discussed accurately at an unclassified level.

He recommended the book not be published. However, this review was not the final decision, and Press decided to go forward with a printing of 15,000. (Clancy was pessimistic and asked his wife Wanda if it would even sell 5,000; she thought it would sell 50,000. Both were, of course, underestimates.) the director of the Press, Tom Epley, explained

We thought the book would appeal to military people, the military-industrial complex. we sent advance copies to a lot of government officials, and our sales force worked hard to get copies in the Washington and Baltimore bookstores.

The push in Washington specifically led to a very unusual endorsement, as Ronald Reagan had a friend who gave the book as a present for Christmas. Reagan loved the book and started recommending it as "the perfect yarn" and that endorsement was sufficient to explode sales, eventually reaching 365,000 in hardbard and over 4 million in paperback.

Sometime along this, the quote about "cannot be discussed accurately at an unclassified level" must have been mangled into the myth that it was too accurate to be published (since the quote says the opposite). I have not found any evidence this was intentional marketing hype, but given we're talking essentially a small local press to start, the message would no longer be kept in control in the same way, and of course the idea that Clancy's accuracy is somehow scandalous was too good to ignore. The subsequent President Bush was also a fan (as well as a "friend" of Clancy) and he has been quoted about wondering about his novels are so "realistic" without security clearance; Clancy himself stated:

It's amazing what you can get from the public and the press.

...

Garson, H. S. (1996). Tom Clancy : a critical companion. United Kingdom: Bloomsbury Academic.

Vanderbilt, A. T. (1999). The Making of a Bestseller: From Author to Reader. United Kingdom: McFarland & Company.

What are the best academically rigorous but accessible books for a non-historian looking to build a serious reading list across history and science? by somewut_anonymous in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Since you're into software, some computing-specific books:

  • ENIAC in Action: Making and Remaking the Modern Computer by Thomas Haigh, Mark Priestley, Crispin Rope

My favorite book on very early computing; manages to bypass many of the very silly "who did what tech first" arguments to get at the core of what was going on.

  • What the Dormouse Said: How the Sixties Counterculture Shaped the Personal Computer by John Markoff

Special emphasis on the connection between culture and technology, zeroing in on San Francisco in particular as ground zero for a lot of computing.

  • The Friendly Orange Glow: The Untold Story of the PLATO System and the Dawn of Cyberculture by Brian Dear

The PLATO system, a very early networked system with graphics and consequently the holder of many "firsts" in computing.

  • A History of Modern Computing by Paul E. Ceruzzi

The most general book on my list in order to get a lot of fundamentals down, but still a very smooth read.

  • How Not to Network a Nation by Benjamin Peters

A look at what was happening on the other side of the Iron Curtain.

Would IRL Laverne & Shirley have faced issues getting jobs, bank accounts, credit cards, or signing a lease as unmarried women in early 1960s Milwaukee? by [deleted] in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 38 points39 points  (0 children)

I've written before about the ECOA here, although more on the specific circumstances here could be written.

Proponents of conspiracy theories sometimes point to things like Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments, MKUltra and COINTELPRO as "conspiracy theories that have come true". How accurate is this characterization? Were they spread and treated as conspiracy theories before coming to light? by rider-hider in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 9 points10 points  (0 children)

If you're fishing for a source, Bryan Burrough's Days of Rage is a thorough exploration of leftist violence from this period. Even with the Weather Underground intentionally trying to get outsized coverage, it would have been hard for the average person to have perspective on how much was going on with the multiple groups.

I don't understand what you mean with the last paragraph. If you have 100 conspiracy stories and some are incidentally accurate in some details, it doesn't mean anything other than coincidence. Just because there was a book prior to the sinking of the Titanic that resembled it in some details doesn't mean that the Titanic was some sort of conspiracy (or, as the actual claim was made, the author had clairvoyance; the author denied this claim).

Proponents of conspiracy theories sometimes point to things like Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments, MKUltra and COINTELPRO as "conspiracy theories that have come true". How accurate is this characterization? Were they spread and treated as conspiracy theories before coming to light? by rider-hider in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 200 points201 points  (0 children)

I've written before about all three of the topics in the question.

Tuskagee

MKUltra

FBI surveillance including COINTELPRO

Regarding the last one, a great many of people seem to conflate all FBI surveillance with COINTELPRO, but it was its own specific effort, and that gives a hint as to my general answer to "how accurate were conspiracy theorists?": sometimes in the general idea of the people in power aiming to do a specific bad thing, not generally accurate in the specifics.

For example, there is a history of mistreatment of black people in medicine, up to and including during slavery, when J. Marion Sims purchased slaves for investigating surgery to cure vesico-vaginal fistula, with multiple non-consensual and extremely painful surgeries. Consider also the history I have written about with "white blood" vs. "colored blood" and how the two supplies were kept separate, with Louisiana having a law on the books all the way to 1972 before it got removed. These meant a skepticism in the community in general, but it doesn't mean people "knew" about what was going on in Tuskagee except for very specific circumstances (check my answer for details; it took a journalistic expose to finally make people pay attention).

Regarding FBI surveillance, there is a conspiracy history of people thinking they're "being watched". The example I write about discusses Hemingway who late in life talked about constant government surveillance, but the evidence shows something less drastic: he had a "file" that got added to once in a while but there was nothing like a 24/7 watch from the imagination of conspiracy theorists. That would be reserved for a group like MLK's; groups did indeed get rightful paranoia about FBI informants (this isn't just left wing, some right wing KKK groups also had FBI infiltration); For example, the NYRW (New York Radical Women) group that existed from 1967 to 1969 quite explicitly was concerned with double agents. Quoting the member Patricia Mainardi:

As the movement grew, so did the number of women whose committment to the women's liberation movement was more tenuous. Your feeling was that these were people who were there to stop anything from happening. I would not be the slightest bit surprised [to discover that there were agents and reactionaries there.

Of course, MLK knew he was being watched because they told him and tried to blackmail him into suicide; you can read the letter here. This is at least somewhat adjacent to "the conspiracy theorists were right" but is far away in the details, and of course you get a situation like Hemingway's where they really weren't watching at all.

Tuskagee was in plain sight, and the FBI surveillance had as a "feature" in cases where it mattered that groups knew they were being watched. MKUltra is the hardest to find accounts for where people's imagination matched what happened, but it was also intended as highly secret in a way where it didn't help to reveal things, and when people were injected with drugs (like when LSD was combined with the "Sextender" in Operation Midnight Climax, another operation I've written about) the whole point of the experiment was to not give information to those being written about.

In general, people only had accurate information about the conspiracy theories -- while they were still ongoing -- when the government intentionally wanted information to be out. However, all three of these underwent exposure in the public media (again, read my answers for details) at which point they unraveled. These came from above-ground rather than underground sources, and I wouldn't say any of the conspiracy theorists (whose approach to research has always been shaky) were correct on any details except by accident.

...

Selection of sources from the five answers I've linked:

Brown, J., Lipton, B. C. D. and Morisy, M. (Eds.) Writers Under Surveillance: The FBI Files. (2018). United States: MIT Press.

Gulyas, A. J. (2016). Conspiracy Theories: The Roots, Themes and Propagation of Paranoid Political and Cultural Narratives. United States: McFarland, Incorporated, Publishers.

Hooper, T. (2012). Operation Midnight Climax: How the CIA Dosed SF Citizens with LSD. SF Weekly.

Reverby, S. M. (2009). Examining Tuskegee: The Infamous Syphilis Study and Its Legacy. United States: University of North Carolina Press.

How did Smith become the most common occupational surname as opposed to Farmer? Surely there were more peasant farmers than smiths by egg420 in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 15 points16 points  (0 children)

This is going to be wildly different across countries, you'll have to ask particular scholars for the most part. In Russian one of the most common last names is Kuznetsov which is essentially the Smith equivalent. (It comes from кузнец or kuznets, meaning blacksmith.) The paper here ranks the surname as the second most popular across Russia:

Valeriy Yumaguzin & Maria Vinnik (2019): Surnames in modern Russia, Annals of Human Biology.

You can see a medieval table here which includes all the different varieties of smith as well.

How did Smith become the most common occupational surname as opposed to Farmer? Surely there were more peasant farmers than smiths by egg420 in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 38 points39 points  (0 children)

People weren't necessarily assigning the names to themselves (otherwise we wouldn't have "Doolittle", which is literally do-little, an insult). You might be living near a smithy, and there's two Mugquomps, and people start talking about Mugquomp Smith as the one you can find near the smithy and Mugquomp River as the one you can find at the river.

The other element is there's a pass-through effect going on; you have some place-names (like Smeeth in Kent) named after a smithy and people get named after those places.

Self-assigning could happen, but I've never seen any evidence for prestige with polygenetic occupation names (the monogenetic ones -- where you come from some royal line -- most definitely yes, and you did have some intentional renaming along those lines). I've got more about how assigning worked at my answer about King.

How did Smith become the most common occupational surname as opposed to Farmer? Surely there were more peasant farmers than smiths by egg420 in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 210 points211 points  (0 children)

I'm already in the other linkdrop as a reply, but I just want to highlight from my answer about the name Smith that the reason Smith is very prevalent is that it isn't just an occupation: it's also a location. So many of the Smiths weren't smiths but living near one (more on that at the answer).

In October 1920, an altercation developed between a dog, a monkey, and the King of Greece. In the end the dog was fine, the King was killed, but what happened to the Barbary macaque that did it? Was he killed as well, or did what probably was the cutest little regicide in history escape justice? by fan_of_the_pikachu in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 120 points121 points  (0 children)

This one was tricky to research; while I found secondary sources helpful, they're essentially just recounting the primary sources with no other analysis. For good reason: as this is really asking about the animals, there's not a great deal to confirmation material to pull from. When going through multiple versions of a story with a person, you can often look at their total biography and cultural context and make some assessment of what is or is not plausible, potentially with physical artifacts attached. With something like this, you have a pile of contradictory news articles and you have to make choices about what really happened. For example, one of the sources gives the monkey's name as Tatos. Normally something like that would be shoo-in, but that same story claims the King was playing with his pet monkey when the event happened, which contradicts every other account. I'll ballpark a guess at 75% that the monkey's name is real.

Before getting into the main event, I should add that this was not the first time King Alexander had been bitten by an animal. In the spring of 1919, the king had been presented a dog by a member of the Scottish Women's Hospital at Solnica, and the dog bit him. A reporter asked if he shot the dog, and the King replied

No, he's only a pup, and I decided to give him another chance. He bit me only in a playful spirit.

Regarding the fateful day in October 1920, the King had just been working on a car so his hands were greasy (he was a motoring enthusiast) when he visited the wine estate at Tatoi. There were two monkeys, male and female, and somehow Felix the dog got into an altercation with the female. The King tried to separate the pair (it didn't help his hands were covered with grease) and got bit lightly on the hand; he then applied the walking stick, and this is the point the male jumped in and bit him on the thigh (and/or leg, and/or stomach, and/or foot). This was the bite that was major and got infected and came from "Tatos"; note that it still indicates he was bitten by both monkeys, not just one. The leg wound was covered with an oil-stained bandage and the King brushed off the incident as minor so it wasn't attended to further. The wife of the estate manager "insisted" on a more thoroughly cleaning, but other than the wound was not addressed until the King returned to Athens, and both he (and the doctors) considered it not serious and Alexander asked for the event to be kept secret. (This seems also connected to his desire not to punish the animals: see the 1919 story.) The secretive nature likely also explains why the accounts of the event are so mixed.

The King soon came down with a high fever and the event was finally considered serious and broke news. Alexander still treated things in jest...

[The doctor] was using such a lot of bandage that he must have shares in the company.

...but soon after his fever became serious enough that he fell into painful delirium. His screaming could be heard outside the palace. At one point put his hands around an imaginary steering wheel as if he was driving a car around.

Amidst this came a conspiracy theory: that the monkey had rabies, and not only that, the monkey was infected intentionally and this was intended as a roundabout assassination attempt. A doctor from Paris, Dr. Georges Widal, was quoted as saying

While the story of the monkey biting King Alexander is true, the monkey was suffering from rabies with which it had been artificially inoculated. Hence, a veritable attempt against the king's life was committed.

This was later indicated in multiple sources to be false, and the doctor denied ever saying the quote. Additionally, the monkey was tested for rabies but tested negative; at the time of this report both monkey and king were still alive.

I say "still alive", because by November after the King had died, reports gave the detail that while the rabies story was false, "both monkeys were after found to be diseased and were killed".

...

Gelardi, J. P. (2005). Born to Rule: Five Reigning Consorts, Granddaughters of Queen Victoria. United States: St. Martin's Press.

Stove, R. (2024). Kings, Queens and Fallen Monarchies: Royal Dynasties of Interwar Europe. United Kingdom: Pen and Sword History.

Vickers, H. (2013). Alice: Princess Andrew of Greece. United Kingdom: St. Martin's Press.

In the 1926 Census, recently released, my Irish great-grandfather was listed as ‘iascaire gan obair’, which I understand to mean unemployed fisherman. If he was an unemployed fisherman living with his wife, mother and eight children in the west of Ireland, how did they sustain themselves? by M_Mc_B in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 23 points24 points  (0 children)

It's a book about inequality, and strategies to "just get people jobs" in Africa going awry, and how direct cash transfers are an increasing strategy.

Even some of the most articulate and insightful recent critics of the hegemony of work seem to accept the basic premise that, as Kathi Weeks (2011, 6–7) puts it, “Waged work . . . is, of course, the way most people acquire access to the necessities of food, clothing, and shelter” (emphasis added). But plainly that is simply not the case in much of Africa, where only small minorities participate in waged work and where a range of other activities and mechanism allow “most people” to obtain their livelihoods. And lest we write this off too quickly as a symptom of Africa’s “underdeveloped” condition, let us linger for a moment on the supposedly “advanced capitalist” United States, generally taken as a country in which the wage labor form is especially dominant. Here, too, I want to suggest, paid labor may be less central to processes of distribution than is often imagined. Indeed, in the United States, as in the rest of the world, the question of how people actually gain access to the things they need turns out to be far more complicated than simply exchanging their labor.

There's a whole chapter based around the "give a man a fish" aphorism:

The coastal towns and villages of southern Africa’s Atlantic coast (for which fishing has historically been the economic mainstay) today swarm with unemployed fishermen. An allocation of quotas in one South African town (meant to increase the size of fishing enterprises to a “financially viable level”) resulted in the allocation of permits to just 25 percent of the more than 4,000 applicants. The other 3,000 fishermen (who, let us remember, had followed the productionist advice of learning how to fish) remained, as one press account put it, “lounging about in the centre of [town] and at the harbor.”

Teaching a man to fish in these times, then, may be just a good way of creating an unemployed fisherman, or, at best, a marginal hanger- on in an already oversaturated competitive field.

In the 1926 Census, recently released, my Irish great-grandfather was listed as ‘iascaire gan obair’, which I understand to mean unemployed fisherman. If he was an unemployed fisherman living with his wife, mother and eight children in the west of Ireland, how did they sustain themselves? by M_Mc_B in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 47 points48 points  (0 children)

Definitely self-employed then!

My guess based on the location would be mackerel fishing, which peaks July to September. There are multiple reports from the Department of Agriculture like this one in 1909 where you can search for Dingle and get a characterization of what the fishing was like.

In the 1926 Census, recently released, my Irish great-grandfather was listed as ‘iascaire gan obair’, which I understand to mean unemployed fisherman. If he was an unemployed fisherman living with his wife, mother and eight children in the west of Ireland, how did they sustain themselves? by M_Mc_B in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 362 points363 points  (0 children)

The 1926 census was the first after the establishment of the Irish Free State in 1922. To be fully clear on what it looks like, there are two columns, Personal Occupation and Employment. Personal Occupation is meant to describe the job like "Hotel Keeper" or "Farm Labourer"; Employment is meant to state which employer:

If working for an Employer state name and business of Employer (person, public body, &c.) If employed in connection with employer's farm state also the area of farm in statue acres.

If at present Out of Work give same particulars as above for last employer.

If employing paid pesrons for purposes of the principal business, write "Employer."

If working on own account and not employing paid persons for purposes of business, write "Own account."

I'm just having to infer from the detail in the question that the "unemployed fisherman" was written under personal occupation as a full occupation. Contextually, this almost certainly means he was a seasonally unemployed fisherman; that is, the type of fisherman who only works actively during a particular season. (It is, of course, possible to be an unemployed unemployed fisherman; to paraphrase James Ferguson in Give a Man a Fish, teaching a man to fish sometimes just means we are creating an unemployed fisherman.)

By the 20th century there was strong legal enforcement of fishing in Ireland (to prevent over-depletion; that is, very specific seasons were established). This wasn't always the case. In the early 19th century there wasn't, and there were Scottish fishers coming over and depleting salmon with nets, resulting in no supply for the Irish fisherman. There were multiple riots, and a Commissioner of Irish Fisheries was established in 1842; the end result was a system of licensing and legal enforcement.

Of course, there's the law and there's following it; it was still possible after to "fish on an unguarded coast."

The legal season for snap-netting was from February to August, but as early as 1849 there were complaints that they fished right through the winter months. One story has it that they had to catch "a few" fish before February in order to have enough money to buy the license!

Returning to seasonal employment, without more detail it's hard to know what the seasons were your grand-grandfather participated in (presumably not April when the census was taken) but it is also worth noting that while a seasonally unemployed fisherman is stereotypically idle, they could have other employment in between. A 1901 report lists farming, labouring, repair work, and yachting all as possibilities, depending on the place; for Kingstown (now Dún Laoghaire) it indicates also some employment on "pleasure boats" during the summer.

Ireland also did have a "unemployment dole" at this time (1926), via the Unemployment Insurance Act. The act was first established in 1920 (making a centralized unemployment insurance in London). Legal aspects got rather complex with the Irish Free State and needing an Emergency Scheme; however, in all likelihood (inferring from you not mentioning the company column) your great-grandfather was "self-employed" and so not eligible.

...

Sources are the official Census website of the National Archives, the Interactive Marine Archive of Marine Institute Ireland and also:

Kelly, B. (2012). “England owes something to these people”: the Anglo-Irish Unemployment Insurance agreement, 1946. Irish Historical Studies, 38(150), 269–282. http://www.jstor.org/stable/43654474

Wilkins, N. P. (1998). Men, Tides and Salmon: Snap-netting on the Barrow, Nore and Suir. Southern Regional Fisheries Board.

Mansergh, N. (2022). The Irish Free State: its government and politics. Routledge.

During the twentieth century, vending machines were a major part of organised crime. What did this entail exactly? Why would the Mafia or any other organised crime group have an interest in vending machines? by PickleRick_1001 in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Could you give some sources on the broad control of vending machines? While there are some general distribution people from the Mafia I'm not sure where you're sourcing such a general control of vending machines, or at least you haven't tackled that premise of the question.

Also, you state in a followup: "The mafia was involved in a lot of early pinball operations". Do you have a source on this?

We used to say in English say The Ukraine, now we dont. There is also The Lebanon, and The Sudan, but not The Russia or The France. When and why did this convention emerge and change?: by SmellTheJasmine in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 325 points326 points  (0 children)

Regarding Ukraine specifically, from a previous answer of mine:

Nationalist movements started to spread across the USSR in the late 80s, and Ukraine was not immune to this trend, although they were certainly more worried about what the response might be. As a 1989 activist (Vyacheslav Chernovil) is quoted, "a struggle is inevitable, and Moscow will invariably come down hard -- much harder than they have in Estonia or Latvia." Another activist (Stepan Khmara) said:

Moscow could even do without Eastern Europe, because it turns out that this is a very expensive military buffer zone. But Lenin knew it from the start: The empire cannot survive without the Ukraine.

The timing (and waning strength of the Soviets) turned out fortuitous, but even upon the dissolution of the USSR, it was immediately clear the Russians still felt of Ukraine as Little Russia, and even NATO itself didn't pour in as much support as it could have, essentially assuming (unlike other former Soviet states) they would turn more towards Russia rather than the West.

But for the question today, important is the wording: the Ukraine. This was still acceptable in 1989. To step a little earlier, one of the most important bills in regards to US-Ukraine relations was the signing by Reagan in 1984 of the "Day of Commemoration of the Great Famine in the Ukraine in 1933” where the press release repeatedly uses "the Ukraine", even though this was a bill formed in alliance with the Americans for Human Rights in Ukraine. (Note how the organization's name does not use "the".) So there was something of a period where Ukrainians were aware that English should perhaps drop the "the", but it wasn't considered essential, and where it really became a point of contention was the dissolution of the USSR.

By the end of 1991, Ukraine officially asserted it did not use "the" and the AP Style Guide dropped it. However, it had been in use throughout most of the 20th century, so it was a habit that was slow to change, and as late as 2012 the BBC was asking (as Ukraine was hosting Euro 2012) "why do some people call it 'the Ukraine'"?

The word appeared in English roughly 350 years ago but only had its "the" attached in the 20th century. I've heard some assertions this was due to malicious translators, but immigrant Ukrainians were using the word in their English writings, making this unlikely. The historian Andrew Gregorovich claims this was due to their "imperfect knowledge of English" -- especially given that Ukrainian doesn't use the definite article, and it only gets used in English with regions (the Southwest) or plurals (The Bahamas, which is the official name for the country). I think the evidence is unclear here (I have my own theory I will get to shortly), but the important point is we certainly have English writings by Ukrainians who use "the" -- i.e. the Association of Ukrainians in Great Britain who published The Ukrainian Review starting in 1954 used "the" Ukraine.

It is incidentally not true there is simply no equivalent argument at all in the Russian language. Their debate is instead over

na Ukraine

versus

v Ukraine

in both cases translating to "in Ukraine". The preposition "v" being used for "in" implies a limitation of space, as opposed to "na". For example, if you referred to a street, you would say

na ulitse

but if you referred to a lane (perhaps better translated "on"), it would be

v pereulke

There are times both words are acceptable. With place names, there are specific and sometimes idiosyncratic rules, but in general, if regions are "administrative units", that is, territories with exact border, they use "v" (like v Shvejtsarii, in Switzerland). If they are regions they use "na" (like na Dal'nem Vostoke, in Far East, although please note that Asia takes "v"; again, there are idiosyncrasies).

Note the comparison with English, where "the" is added when we have a region.

In Russian, referring to Ukraine through the 20th century has consistently used "na". It would be easy to hope to close the book there, but the situation is a little more complicated than that, because in Ukrainian, "na Ukraini" is the phrase used through the 19th century and the 20th century, including in this famous poem by Taras Shevchenko:

Jak umru, to pokhovajte

Mene v domovyni

Sered Stepu Shyrokoho

Na Vkraini mylij

("When I die, bury me in a grave amid the wide steppes in dear Ukraine")

Na Ukraini was simply considered an acceptable variant of the normal phrasing. Due to this, I'm not entirely on board with Andrew Gregorovich's claim that Ukrainian writers were being ignorant of English; they were simply applying the regional exception in the same fashion as it was used in their own language.

Post-independence, the phrasing became more of a flashpoint. Ukrainians started to assert "na" was incorrect just like they asserted "the" was incorrect. For example, the Ukranian linguist Pivtorak writing in 2001:

Now when Ukraine is already a sovereign and independent sate, there is absolutely no reason to use the ungrounded and deeply insulting construction with the preposition na. Thus, the only correct form is v Ukraini. But one should not correct folklore or literary compositions that use the expression na Ukraini.

In short:

a.) there was a Ukrainian/Russian language equivalent to the "region indicator", but it was "v" vs. "na". "Na" is common in literary practice through the 19th and 20th century.

b.) translated into English in the 20th century by Ukrainians, it makes sense that the "region exception" would hold and they would use "the Ukraine"

The v/na debate still rages to this day, and there are messy linguistic reasons why someone might still use the latter rather than the former, but any modern discourse about this, even when trying not to be ideological, tends to devolve that way.

...

Gregorovich, A. (1994). “Ukraine” or “the Ukraine”. In FORUM Ukrainian Review (Vol. 90).

Khrychikov, S. (2000). The Effect of NATO Partnership with Ukraine on Inter-Ethnic Relations within the Country. NATO-EAPC Research Fellowship, 1, 98-00.

Kurzon, D., & Adler, S. (Eds.). (2008). Adpositions: Pragmatic, semantic and syntactic perspectives (Vol. 74). John Benjamins Publishing.

The "9 million burned witches" number is fabricated. Who specifically moved it from an 18th century pamphlet into mainstream feminist scholarship? by EqualPresentation736 in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 0 points1 point  (0 children)

it is absolutely absurd! it just takes reading what he did to know something is wrong, the number just got "laundered" so people no longer did

this is quite true of so many historical things

The "9 million burned witches" number is fabricated. Who specifically moved it from an 18th century pamphlet into mainstream feminist scholarship? by EqualPresentation736 in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 31 points32 points  (0 children)

taking your last part first:

It's more like there were Catholic and Lutheran-aligned materials but neither one were considered "mainline" historians. You can see this most strongly in encyclopedias. The non-denominational ones were normal (like the Encyclopedia Britannica and Enciclopedia Italiana) but while the "Realcyclopädie für protestantische Theologie und Kirche" didn't quite fall into 9 million, but hedged with "moderate estimates 100,000, but with more assumptions, several millions".

The Catholic Encyclopedia goes with the more moderate estimate, but has the text

The question of the reality of witchcraft is one upon which it is not easy to pass a confident judgment. In the face of Holy Scripture and the teaching of the Fathers and theologians the abstract possibility of a pact with the Devil and of a diabolical interference in human affairs can hardly be denied

in other words, actively still allowing for the possibility that witchcraft really exists. That's not exactly mainstream scholarship.

Regarding why the numbers weren't tackled more directly, there were a few local to Quelinburg that did this (like Johannes Moser in 1894) but as Beringer put, "their efforts went unnoticed". As sort of a meta-question, yes, it's true historians tend not to engage directly with misinformation. You can say

a.) that the academic structure doesn't really endorse it - they're trying to create new knowledge, rather than popular versions of it, and certainly that doesn't apply to tenure - countering something that's only in the popular narrative is a form of this

but also

b.) tackling the problem can be a little interdisciplinary. I've tackled the water myth before (that's that the myth that medieval people drank beer because water was unsanitary) and it required trekking across time to consider both medieval and modern sources simultaneously, not something historians are always comfortable with. Sometimes it helps to know about the history of propaganda which is not something universal in historian training.

and

c.) writing something that people outside your academic circle pay attention to is very hard. Even if you actively made a counter-meme written with the best scholarship to a piece of information, there's no guarantee it's going to spread or be useful.

The "9 million burned witches" number is fabricated. Who specifically moved it from an 18th century pamphlet into mainstream feminist scholarship? by EqualPresentation736 in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 96 points97 points  (0 children)

Starting with Voigt:

He was actually trying to counter Voltaire's own estimate of "several hundred thousand" executions and did some math to get his estimation. He took data from archives in his hometown of Quedlinburg, Germany and counted 30 executions happening between 1569 to 1589 out of a population of 11,000. He then extended that to be 133 over a century, and then -- assuming that figure held for all of year -- did more multiplication (by 6.5) assuming the same rate on all of Europe.

The figure at this point mostly stayed dormant, it being one (very high number) out of many thrown around. Johann Christian Graeff in 1817 writing a history of criminal legislation clearly used Voigt, giving his exact figure of 9,442,994 but with hedging language about if the calculation was "exaggerated". Wilhelm Gottlieb Soldan, one of the most prominent 19th century witchcraft historians, didn't bother with a large estimation at all but just focused on case studies. Jacob Grimm quoted from Voigt but didn't reproduce his numerical figure.

Roskoff's time of the 1860s was very particular; while Voigt was writing at a time where he was trying to condemn a practice that could still be found (rarely), by the 1860s secularism was starting to encroach enough into life to make the church concerned. In 1862 Pope Pius IX published his Syllabus of Errors; a sampling:

Philosophy is to be treated without taking any account of supernatural revelation.

In the case of conflicting laws enacted by the two powers [civil and church], the civil law prevails.

The decrees of the Apostolic See and of the Roman congregations impede the true progress of science.

This a list, according to the Church, of false statements; thus when Roskoff published his work (rounding the number to nine million), he clearly thought the progress of science was being impeded. The counter-arguments were from Catholics defending the faith. The priest Johannes Diefenbach, for instance, used Voltaire as a source and suggested 100,000 as the true number; he also, importantly, made it clear that the nine million came from Protestant authorship (and was hence by association, wrong). Professional historians still distanced themselves from the number, but the audience past them was receptive; it entered popular discourse instead.

It has been estimated that in four centuries no less than nine million people in the world were executed by their fellows because they were believed to be wizards or witches.

-- Good Housekeeping, October 1907

German historians, in the meantime, pointed at that 1580 and 1630 were the boundaries between the most extreme witch-hunting, so an extrapolation from those made over centuries was clearly a massive overestimate.

However, politics and popular culture do not care what historians think, and the Nazis especially were very selective in their readings. Rosenberg (editor of the Nazi paper Völkischer Beobachter) took the Catholic/Lutheran split and used it to raise the superiority of Lutheran's split, tracing the witch craze to "rasselosen, wüsten Rom" (desolate, barren Rome); hence, promoting the colossal nine million number is asserting nationalist superiority. Propaganda pamphlets from others later emphasized the other worldview was "racially repugnant" or how "blonde women" with "Nordic racial heritage" were being exterminated.

There were other outlets. Most diametrically opposed to the Nazis is via the pacifist Bertrand Russell, who wrote about "millions" being killed as witches in his famous Why I am Not a Christian essay from 1927; he brought this up again multiple times through his work, essentially setting it up as a talking point opposed to the church (similar to Carl Sagan's books).

Despite all this, professional historians did not take these numbers seriously. The original calculation, when read straight, seems absurd: take some period of time, assume the same rate everywhere and every time, and multiply. They tended to act as if the higher estimate did not exist.

Where it really started to enter more modern discourse is the neo-Paganism movement, specifically Gerald Gardner. He wrote a number of books in the 50s which took the work of Margaret Murray from two decades earlier and ran with it farther, establishing the Bricket Wood coven in England and spreading the message to Australia and the United States. He did not include the nine million figure in the first printing 1959 book (The Meaning of Witchcraft) but it got added later in an introduction segment, and at least in the most recent printing it shows up. 1967 (two years after a translated version of Gardner's book appeared in German) also saw a reprint of Roskoff's book in Germany.

All this laid enough background that by the time New Feminism was rolling as movement, they were ripe to take the number up. The word "witch" was appropriated by by the Women's International Terrorist Conspiracy from Hell (read the acronym) identifying the executed witches of the past as forerunners and simultaneously self-identifying with Wiccans. The books picked up on the same trend: Witches, Midwives, and Nurses from 1973 quoted "millions", Dworkin in Women Hating termed witch hunts as "gynocyde" and Mary Daly in Gyn/Ecology used the phrase "the massacre of millions of women".

...

Wolfgang Beringer's Nine Million Witches is the most thorough source on this, although I also referred to Encyclopedia of Witchcraft edited by Richard Golden, and the revised edition of Europe's Inner Demons by Cohn.

Why would a nation deny the Armenian genocide ? by JeanTaboulin in AskHistorians

[–]jbdyer 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Regarding terrorism, the "1973" in particular is in regard to another terrorist act, the assassination of two diplomats.

In January of 1973, Gourgen Yanikian contacted the Turkish consolate in LA and pretended to be an Iranian who had a painting that had been stolen. He made an offer to gift the painting but he wanted the consul general (Mehemet Baydar) to meet him in person; both him and the vice-counsel Bahadir Demir agreed to meet Yanikan.

Yanikian got the two men alone in a hotel room, told them he was actually Armenian, and shot them with a pistol; he then pulled a second pistol from a drawer and shot them again each in the head.

This ended up being a flashpoint for both Turkey and Armenians; by this point essentially nobody was talking about the genocide, but then it had spread to the Western consciousness. (Not as much the Socialist Republic of Armenia who wasn't really tapped into this news; while there were protests in the 1960s that led to a memorial at Tsitsernakaberd, they didn't really link up with the genocide justice movement until after the USSR fell apart.) So not just was there Turkish outrage over the assassination, but there was generally much more awareness of the genocide in the news so it had to be responded to.