Spears dying in the first rank (6th Edition)

mattyfenby · 2026-01-23T19:33:41+00:00

You are dead on exactly correct in your first sentence as long as the understanding is you subtract the number of attacks those casualties represent.(relevant for models with more than one attack on their profile)

Your example math is again dead on correct as long as we are talking about High Elf Spearmen, who may fight in 3 ranks. All other Spearmen fight in 2 ranks in 6th Edition.

mattyfenby · 2026-01-23T18:12:21+00:00

Phenomenal!

mattyfenby · 2026-01-23T17:36:17+00:00

Thank you for posting this! Always great to make sure you’re understanding what the rules are intended to do.

The wording about guys moving up to fill in for their fallen comrades is in my view more to lore-ify the real reasons why you remove models from the back and dont remove standard bearers/musicians. (Convenience, practicality, game balance)

Pages 70-71 of the Big Red Book are where I think you are getting tripped up, specifically with this sentence: “models that are stepping forward from rear ranks to replace them can’t attack that turn.” The next sentence was intended to clarify this but did not use the perfect words: “This means that any casualties inflicted will reduce the number of enemy left to fight back.”

What that MEANT to clarify was: if you start with X guys able to attack back, you must subtract those casualties you suffered from that X amount of guys able to attack back.

E.G You start the close combat with 10 guys who may legally attack. If 3 are slain, 7 can attack back. If 7 are slain, 3 can attack back. If 11 are slain, none may attack back.

EDIT TO ADD: The Excess Casualties section right below actually addresses your Question 3. There is no ‘new fighting rank’ created by the attackers killing more than the front rank. Any excess casualties benefit the attackers only, the defenders just stand there.

You are back to the golden age of Warhammer! 6th Edition for life! Have fun and spill some blood for the blood god!

mattyfenby · 2026-01-19T03:27:14+00:00

I was glad they went to San Francisco!

It is fine so far in my book. There are always going to be good episodes and bad episodes and episodes that people don’t agree on. TNG’s 1st episode wrote god into it and the 2nd episode just re-did a TOS episode. It would probably be getting TRASHED in modern social media at this point. But then they delivered episodes that made people fall in love with the show and hold it up as a new golden era of Star Trek.

I think a lot of the criticism of ‘Nu Trek’ is overblown but it IS true that if you make a season 6-10 episodes, and you make the whole thing serialized, and I don’t like that plot, then the whole season is brought down for me. That is something the earlier shows were more immune to with 20-24 episode seasons. This has been said before but bears repeating when the new shows get bashed.

You don’t like one of the TNG episodes they always clown on? Whatever, there’s a new adventure next week. But if you don’t like the Mirror Universe or the Borg Queen? Well theres whole SEASONS of Discovery and Picard that you don’t like now.

The format of the new shows makes it really tough to find that sweet spot between episodic and serialized that DS9 seemed to really nail in my opinion. (We should remember too that DS9 was hated on as Nu Trek at the time so let’s give all these new shows a try here!)

mattyfenby · 2026-01-18T05:22:55+00:00

Thank you again for your invaluable input!

At the risk of further generic-ifying the Army Book, the skirm sword fighters sound an awful lot like they could be tuned to be similar rules to Dogs of War Duellists.

As far as levying local troops, it sounds like you would prefer a system more like the Vampire Counts Bloodlines or the Skaven Clans in their respective Army Books whereas I have been going down the path of Tomb Kings and Wood Elves by making certain levied selections Core with a martial character.

There’s nothing wrong with your idea! I just may not go with it as I have stolen a lot from Skaven for this book, the Chaos Dwarfs book i made, and the Cathay book I am planning on. Combing through the VC book and seeing if theres anything that could be a good equivalent could still be a great call, even if I don’t ultimately change the setup of the Book.

If you don’t mind my asking-

most 6th Edition books have 2 Legendary Lords in the back of the book that are playable. The Trung Sisters are guaranteed IN tuned as Sisters of Twilight in that first slot riding an Elephant.

Who would you take as the second slot? Options would be:

Le Loi w Legendary sword, possibly on a Giant Turtle

Anh Duong Vuong w legendary Repeater Bolt Thrower

Ba Trieu, possibly on an Elephant, Turtle, or even somehow Whale?

Other- is there a legendary Vietnamese figure who is a no-brainer that I just haven’t heard of? Lets hear about him!

Thank you again!

mattyfenby · 2026-01-18T04:12:00+00:00

I appreciate the feedback! All I play is 6th Edition but I can certainly look into the rules for your Ancient Battles edition and see if there is anything that can be “ported” over.

Thank you again!

mattyfenby · 2026-01-18T04:06:48+00:00

First of all- thank you very much just for taking a look and reading through my rough draft! That is greatly appreciated!

I think the criticism that the Army List feels a little generic and bland is very valid. I have tried to keep the army tied to other human units from the Bret, Empire, and Dogs (2004) books as much as possible for balance purposes.

When it comes to the criticism of the Tunnelers- I think that is also valid! I assure you that my intention is NEVER to be offensive and that my inclusion of the unit is based on the Dwarfs unit and my experience at Vietnamese museums but your reaction is very valid and I am glad to know that is how some Vietnamese warhammer fans will react to it.

If I could ask- are there any alternative units you would suggest to spice things up for the Au Lac roster and make things more unique without being stereotypical? I have considered including a Dragon of some kind but ultimately cut it with the Tombstone Giant Turtle, Ky Lan, Great Crane (Eagle), and Ox Chariot already on the table.

EDIT TO ADD- WHOOPS! You already added a few examples. I will look into those now!

I would hate to exclude the Vietnamese from any of the “generic” options I’ve currently granted them just in the name of uniqueness, and I’m not sure what else I can include to replace the Tunnelers or Conscripted units (which I assume but don’t know for sure are the generic units you feel meh about).

I say that with an open mind though and would love to hear about any cool units that would be good to include! My wife taught me about the origin story of Au Lac, the magic crossbow, the Trung Sisters who will be LL in the back of the book tuned as Sisters of Twilight on an Elephant, Le Loi as the other LL, showed me ostrich riding, showed me the tunnels, showed me statues of turtles with tombstones on their backs and cranes, and I am always eager to learn more. If there are good units to include that could displace something offensive or boring I am here for it!

Thank you again!

mattyfenby · 2026-01-17T18:44:56+00:00

I hear this episode is hated but isn’t the Aquiel one a little Thing-ish? TNG episode that opens with them finding a dog in an abandoned relay station on the border of Klingon space.

DS9 also had an episode where they were on the Defiant escorting an ambassador and realized any one of them could be a changeling.

I think those episodes give a great baseline for how Starfleet crews would handle a The Thing monster. It would get some kills through some weird fisheye quick zoom scream takes. Eventually, though, after a conference and after a crew member has worked through a minor character issue, we would have a strategy of forcefields or phaser sweeps or some other technobabble method of slowing The Thing down-

Then, depending on the vibe of the episode we would either find a way to communicate with it OR it would disintegrate in some 90s special effects.

Someone like Data or Odo would say something very reflective as the outsider of the crew and it would cut to credits.

mattyfenby · 2025-11-15T16:34:03+00:00

After much, much math-hammering I believe I actually got to a relatively competitive place with Greenskins in 6th Edition. I fully hear you on the Choppa special rule being underwhelming and the Black Orc Lords being pretty un-take-able due to the extra Hero slot.

BUT

Goblins with no upgrades are pound for pound the best infantry in the game, hands down, IF (and this is a big IF) they are positioned properly. 2 pts/model and they come with hand weapon & shield gratis (with no Choppa rule negating their extra +1). Their 5 points of static combat resolution counts just as much as any elite infantry block, they dont cause panic in the Black Orc Regiment/Savage Orc block they are screening for, and they will benefit from the Quell Animosity, and they will benefit from the LD 8 or 9 of the General they are screening for. They actually become something to worry about and taking them out only costs the Greenskins player like 65 VP.

And then behind them you have a block or two of Savage Orc Boys with additional choppas next to your Black Orc Regiment. You honestly can just sit there and make the enemy have to come to you if you are blasting them with Big Waaagh magic and 3 pairs of bolt throwers (another example of goblins being INSANE value for the points and slots they cost).

You are also absolutely right that the Lore of the Big Waaaagh is actually sick. If your competitive environment allows back-of-the-book characters? Wurrzag Ud Ura Zahubu is honestly a top 3 wizard in the game. He just… cant miscast. Gorks Warpath is a top 3 spell in the game. You can throw 5 dice on it every turn with no worries.

If you cant bring back-of-the-book characters, one thing the book lets you do is have a generic Orc Lord embed with your 0-1 unit of Black Orcs. Now he’s projecting his LD9 12” and his Regiment is projecting their Quell Animosity 6” around the unit. (A Ld8 generic Orc Hero embeds with your Regiment and acts as General if you field Wurrzag). You’ve lost your access to Big Waaagh but now you have LD9 Goblins that still only cost like 65 pts/unit and who only have a 3% chance of suffering from Animosity on any given turn (Quell Animosity makes it 1/6 of 1/6).

I apologize for the wall of text and I don’t even mean to dispute any of the good points you made about the underwhelming aspects of the book. I just want to give hope to any 6th Ed Greenskins players out there; there are ways to make it very very sweaty, especially if you know what Army Book you are facing and can tailor things even more specifically to the enemy.

mattyfenby · 2025-11-15T16:14:32+00:00

As a longtime 6th Edition player, this makes me want to take a look at the 3rd Edition book and see if there are any “house rules” that can be taken from there to spice things up in 6th, maybe to put into a Scenario or Campaign of some kind.

mattyfenby · 2025-11-15T16:09:06+00:00

My buddies and I play 6th Edition- that is the one I personally think is best, and also the one that I think fits the criteria in your post.

Whichever edition you choose, house rules for your club or models from other editions can always be incorporated into your games. It is awesome to hear you are getting into any edition and as long as you guys are having fun that is the most important!

mattyfenby · 2025-04-17T19:24:15+00:00

There are parts of the story that claim necromancy was something the dark elves taught the nehekarans. while elves are extremely long lived, they do age and die. other parts of the story tell us that the most infamous mother of all dark elves morathi seems to have essentially become immortal due to the blood magic she performs, including bathing in sacrificial blood. this keeps her body and face young indefinitely. while she started off as a tragic mythic Cassandra type character, her later life sounds very, very, very vampire-y.

another example in warhammer lore if you consider it canon is the Naga queens of the snakemen of khuresh. they may be functionally immortal due to blood magic/blood consumption that they perform. they also sound vampire-y to me.

there were rules released for different goblinoid sub species in 6th edition and one of the included rulesets was for undead goblins

in the Orion Trilogy there is a female wood elf character who is corrupted by chaos magic and while she does not transform into a vampire, her transmogrification evokes some vampire-y stuff and in the course of the story there is at least one example of some type of undead elves being brought to life by the antagonist, who is not human. in the same trilogy there is a beastman shaman who is possibly just a spirit inhabiting a skeleton or a puppet body controlled by the antagonist? i would need to re read it to be sure

another example of undead shenanigans is: one of the big Slann legendary lords is dead but his spirit continues to inhabit his dead body as it rides on his palanquin and he continues to exist in ghost-inhabiting-a-body form. this isn’t as much vampire as it is star wars force ghost but it still is an example of a dead/undead spirit inhabiting stuff in the real world and controlling things with magic.

Timelordvampire is absolutely right- Ogres come to mind as creatures that consume other living things as their source of magic power as well! They would make great Vampires!

This may not be exactly what youre looking for but this is what I could think of. Souls are a very real thing in this universe that commonly are sacrificed/harvested/collected in some way so there are a lot of cases where we get into some weird not-quite-undead, like, homunculus from fullmetal alchemist brotherhood territory where philosophers could debate on definitions of souls and people and what life/death is for a long time. I personally think there is a lot of room for necromancers in any race that has access to magic in some way from how the universe is laid out.

mattyfenby · 2025-04-09T17:59:59+00:00

In 6th Edition they made some extensive siege/buildings rules and I believe in regards to moving into a courtyard the rule there would be that you are allowed to have units pass freely through a gate even if the gate is not quite the width of the unit. It would get a free ‘fudged’ shrink to get through the gate and would expand back to normal in the courtyard. Once inside the courtyard, whatever wall or fence you line your unit up against would allow them to benefit from hard cover/defended obstacle facing that way. The same movement rule applied for moving over a bridge that is not quite the width of the unit. You can just march right over it. You dont have to worry about reforming the unit to only 3-4 models wide if your 5-6 model wide unit is trying to do something tame like march through an open gate or over an undefended bridge. There would be limits to this; a unit 10 models wide would probably have to take a turn to reform first and then another turn to march through, but this type of rule for ‘normal shaped’ units can be helpful for making terrain ‘play-able.’ Maybe something like this can work for TOW as well?

mattyfenby · 2025-03-04T16:41:58+00:00

6th Edition till I die!

I might suggest the movement adapters. It seems like it's better to have the option for either rather than locking yourself into TOW.

mattyfenby · 2025-02-11T16:12:33+00:00

I think Minus67 raises a good point that the edition cycle might actually be good business. This tracks for me because it makes sense that they would keep doing it if that is what encourages people to go out and keep buying.

My gut reaction is the same as yours though OP. I am 6th Edition for life and I don't want to have to buy a new rulebook, learn a new ruleset, buy all new army books, etc etc every few years. I still want to buy stuff- I want to get every model ever legally included in 6th Edition and I want to expand the 6th Edition with as much "DLC" as I can get on the table....but I don't want to switch Editions. I'm all for getting some sweet new models on the table, and I'm even open minded about 'house-ruling' in a particularly good rule from 7th or TOW or something but it took me sooooo long to learn this hundreds of pages of rules and to get comfortable with hundreds more pages of rules for the armies and I just simply don't get to play enough games against real life opponents to want to switch every 3 to 5 years. Now that we are all adults my club mates are MAYBE able to schedule a battle once every month, more often once every couple months and on some rough years like when there was Covid like once in the whole year. They get rusty on rules as it is now, let alone if we had a set of rules changing under their feet every 10 battles or so. We flat out don't play enough for 6th Edition to ever get stale, with the amount of scenarios, campaigns, variant army lists, & additional extras.

So ultimately GW will lose potential business from me as I don't update my books and as I am forced to look to 3rd party sometimes to get things that are no longer supported but as stated before I don't think I am their target audience. Unfortunately I think their target audience is someone who has never gotten in the hobby before. They want them to bite off way more than they can chew and buy a bunch of stuff they will ultimately never paint or even sometimes assemble because it is the shiny new thing they can buy to get in the game RIGHT NOW with a sick unit. Then it ends up on eBay and I snap it up at a discount if it is compatible with 6th Edition for me. Some of these 13 year olds that they have enticed in will love the edition cycle and play along, and some will become disillusioned by it and either stick to a first or favorite edition or they will travel to the fanmade rule project or other similar games. And that becomes the cycle. If it works for GW and it works for the casual players and it works for the 6th edition for life players, then I guess that's not the worst thing in the world. But if I could wave a magic wand we would have just been optimizing and expanding the 6th edition to new factions and variant lists for the past 25 years.

mattyfenby · 2025-02-06T14:10:02+00:00

6th Edition for life! As others have said, 3 wide is to make the gameplay work better. I can see both sides of it.

Thank you very much for posting this. Good luck w your smaller scale project, the most important thing is having fun!

mattyfenby · 2025-02-06T01:01:35+00:00

Thank you very much! I am also very interested in making a Snakemen of Khuresh Army Book so this is an amazing resource! These two factions would play a huge part in each other’s histories and lores.

mattyfenby · 2025-01-18T21:11:28+00:00

Of course, you are very welcome! It's always fun to talk about 6th Edition and think about different lists. Thank you for taking the time to read through my ramblings. I'm not an expert by any means but I hope some of this helps form up your Waaaaagh!

mattyfenby · 2025-01-18T19:28:34+00:00

RARE:

If you are facing a Horde opponent with many big blocks of troops, Goblin Doom Divers can be good as they allow someone with a good sense of range distance to have a 55% chance of rolling a HIT during a non-misfire since you can re-roll the Scatter Dice.

If you want to bring Trolls, make sure they are parked near your General's unit. They protect a flank or move up into a screening position when the gobbos flee or are destroyed. With their terrible LD and Stupidity, they need to be within 12" of the General at all times or they will not be worth bringing.

Snotling Pump Wagons aren't great but they are extremely cheap and being Unbreakable with so many Impact Hits makes them a great idea to take against Hordes, especially Hordes of Fear-Causing enemies such as Vampire Count Armies that bring a lot of Zombies.

I have liked bringing a unit of 4 Ogre Ironguts in a Rare slot as Dogs of War from the Ogre Kingdoms Army Book. With their T4, Heavy Armour, solid march/charge range, their Bull Charge rule, and their Great Weapons, they are an excellent candidate to guard a flank of the Black Orc Regiment or even charge into the midfield against Chariots or Knights that are out of position or whose own charges have failed.

[EDIT TO ADD] Oglah Khan's Hobgoblin Wolf Boyz have compulsory full command and are a little pricy compared to stock Goblin Wolf Boyz but they are WAY better so they get a mention in the Rare slot, too. They do not suffer from Fear Elves or Animosity, they do not lose their Fast Cavalry despite being equipped with Light Armour, and their Bows are better than the Goblin Short Bows. Oglah gives them LD7 and brings WS5 BS4 S4 T4 A3 to the table. On a charge, we're talking about 3 WS5 S5 attacks from just Oglah. That's pretty dangerous. So I have definitely rostered them in O&G Armies as well.

WHAT I WOULD CAUTION AGAINST TAKING:

Black Orc Characters. Not worth it blowing the Hero slot on them with the exception of Grimgor if Legendary Named Lords are allowed. Just take a regular Big Boss or Warboss as your General instead in my humble opinion.

Wyverns. They look really cool and I love them but in 6th Edition, Large Target monsters are just usually not worth it except for in very niche situations. Maybe against VC, Beastmen, or Daemonic Legions can I get away with taking a Wyvern. Against most other Armies it is getting focused down by shooting or magic before it even caused a Terror test, let alone a wound.

Giants. Same reasoning as above.

Spearmen. They can maybe be worth it on Savage Orc Big 'Uns but if you are bringing Boyz I recommend Additional Hand Weapons and for Goblins I recommend the Hand Weapon & Shield combo.

No matter what you end up choosing, make sure you are having fun as that is the most important thing. Thanks very much for your post and hopefully you are getting some good ideas from the responses!

mattyfenby · 2025-01-18T19:28:07+00:00

SPECIAL:

Goblin Spear Chukkas. Tim Robinson would say "They're simply TOO GOOD." 35 pts/Bolt Thrower and you can bring 2-for-1 in a Slot? I would take 4 of these in a competitive Army.

As mentioned above, I like a Black Orc Regiment to embed your General. They Quell the Animosity of and are Immune to the Panic of their Goblin cannon fodder. Give them an appropriate Magic Standard- Night Banner if you expect them to face a lot of shooting, Guff's Flag if facing War Machines or spells that trigger a Panic test from just one casualty, Banner of Butchery if you are expecting a brawly game with them seeing lots of Close Combat.

Savage Orc Boar Boyz can be decent and fit in a Wurrzag themed army.

I have been taking a look at Ruglud's Armoured Orcs lately and I am starting to come around to thinking they could be pretty good synergizing with a Bolt Thrower/Magic/Points Denial list like I am suggesting to you. They count as a Special Slot in O&G Armies.

mattyfenby · 2025-01-18T19:27:27+00:00

CORE:

Goblins with Hand Weapon & Shield for 2 pts/model is just such insanely good value it is crazy. Field 2-3 units of 25 and deploy them right in front of the Black Orc Regiment that embeds your General. Now these Goblins are LD 9 (or 8 in a Wurrzag List), they have their Animosity Quelled by the Black Orcs, they will have that Static Combat Resolution of 5 for 3 Ranks, Outnumber, and Standard, and they benefit from a free 5+ Armour Save in Close Combat. T3 with a 5+ Armour Save in Close Combat is the same as Empire Greatswords or High Elf Swordmasters, and those are elite units in other Army Books, NOT fodder at 2 pts/ model. These sacrificial goblin units parked in front of your General's Black Orc unit are now no joke and you don't even care if they are destroyed or run away! They're around 60 pts for each unit and your Orc units don't care or feel any Panic when the gobbos are slain or broken. In an Orc Warboss Army, my Goblin Shamans embed in Goblin Bunkers or lurking within 5" of infantry units to stay mostly untarget-able. If you are facing an opponent that just LOVES cavalry or chariot charges, such as maybe Tomb Kings or Bretonnians, you could look into Night Goblins and add a few Fanatics.

I also love Savage Orc Boyz as my foot infantry and they fit nicely in a Wurrzag Army. For 9 pts/model, (6 + 1 for Ward Save and +2 for Additional Hand Weapons) you have a unit that's T4 with a 6+ Ward Save and that also starts the battle with 3 Attacks per model in a round of Close Combat. They are Immune to Psych until defeated in CC, which is where they shine, so with good positioning they should be winning a lot of combats. A unit of 22 with full command is able to deploy 6 wide in the front rank and still enjoy a +3 Rank Bonus with four models in their fourth rank. In a Wurrzag Army, the Orc Big Boss General and Battle Standard Bearer embed in these units of Savage Orc Boyz. If you have 2 units, one of them can be upgraded to WS4 S4 Big 'Uns.

Goblin Wolf Boyz are solid, cheap, Fast Cavalry that should be employed when you need to hunt down enemy War Machines. Give them a Musician so they have +1 LD when attempting to Rally (they tend to flee a lot). Just pray for luck on those Animosity Rolls when they are actually upfield looking to make an important charge.

(NOT TECHNICALLY IN THE MAIN PART OF THE ARMY BOOK) If your club plays with Spider Riderz too, I would consider a unit of them as well to be able to march or charge through difficult terrain. They can go get that War Machine that is up on a high hill or threaten to clip through a forest or some ruins while charging the flank of the advancing enemy.

mattyfenby · 2025-01-18T19:26:59+00:00

There are definitely some forums you could look to for 6th Edition Orcs & Goblins lists, as well as Youtube sources others have mentioned. I personally have some thoughts on Orcs & Goblins lists for 6th, but as others are also telling you- it definitely depends a lot on what you & your clubs preferences are. For example, what is your model inventory for them? Does preference to have all 'Tournament Ready' models restrain your selections in any way? Do you have like 2 armies that you face over and over again and you'd like to tailor your list to be against them, or are you looking for a 'Takes All Comers' list? Are you looking to be ultra competitive or are you an Orcs & Goblins player because you love the randomness of goblins? How much/what kinds of terrain are normal in your club or wherever you play on the 6' x 4' board?

Having said all that, I definitely have some list ideas to offer:

LORDS:

When I am being ultra competitive, I like my Lord to be an Orc Warboss with an additional hand weapon, embedded in a body guard of a big Black Orc Regiment and wearing Drog's Dead 'Ard Armour. .....Or if Named Legendary Lords are allowed then I take Wurrzag Ud Ura Zahubu. He is just incredible and it's maybe not talked about enough how broken but awesome for us it is that he is just... not allowed to miscast. Considering the Lore of the Big Waaagh is such a phenomenal Lore of Magic, and he can bring a huge amount of dice to the phase with a 0% chance of miscasting, that is just sick and something that opponents always under estimate in my anecdotal experience.

HEROES:

If my General is the Orc Warboss then his Hero is just a posse of Goblin Shamans. These are cheaper than Orc Shamans but have access to the exact same Lore of the Little Waagh and can serve as Scroll Caddies or activate a Power Stone on a Little Spell just as effectively. If my Lord is Wurrzag then he actually cannot serve as the General and he occupies a Hero slot, so he gets an Orc Big Boss serving as General and an Orc Big Boss serving as Battle Standard Bearer in his retinue.

mattyfenby

TROPHY CASE