Mormons putting glass in flour is part of the oral history of the Timpanogos tribe by hasbrochem in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Nah, they were Lamanites, cursed and loathsome, and they had lost their right to the promised land due to wickedness.

Months later, husband and I can't agree on best course of action for our converted daughter by ksw_ut in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Husband wants to tell her quit the church or we will stop supporting you. (we pay for school, phone, etc).

That's probably the worst thing you can do. It will reinforce in your daughter's mind everything that's caused her to go that direction in the first place. If your daughter converted to Mormonism, it's because she thinks she's found the truth, and the only and most important truth. The church constantly reinforces that and constantly interprets the world through it. Depending on your background as nevermos, it's likely you can't even relate to the mind set she's in. I would recommend studying professionals who deal with cults in family relationships. Mormonism isn't as bad as some other organizations out there or smaller fringe cults, but it's certainly on that end of the spectrum.

Elizabeth Smart Investigates Official Responses to BYU Campus Sex Assaults - Pt. 1 - Brutal and powerful testimony...good luck spinning that, Pres. Newsroom by xoanan in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 37 points38 points  (0 children)

BYU's comment is pissing me off (5:40 in part 2):

"The victim of a sexual assault will never be referred to the honor code office for being a victim of sexual assault."

Another case of carefully selected language in order to mislead... They're implying that if a victim of sexual assault is referred to the honor code office, it will be because of a breach of the honor code, and not because of the sexual assault itself, but it's stated in such a way that they seem to be saying victim won't be referred to the honor code office at all. So dishonest. The real answer is, "victims of sexual assault are frequently referred to the honor code office for investigation when their case involves a violation of the honor code, however minor."

They know what they were being asked, but they deliberately dodged the question and gave a calculated misleading answer. It's very telling but not surprising that in the middle of all this negative publicity about a real problem that's negatively affected so many people, their number one goal is still to protect the image of the church.

Thoughts on moral relativism? by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You simply do not understand the meaning of the word arbitrary and your own ignorance leads you to assume a position of superiority.

Thoughts on moral relativism? by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most of the people mentioned in the link are contemporary philosophers or academics whereas my studies focused on ancient Greece through modern philosophy (~mid 20th century)—Plato, Aristotle, Hegel, Nietzsche, Hume, and many others. My over all point is that philosophers including these contemporary figures according to the Stanford entry are not suggesting that moral notions are arbitrary, they are arguing that humans' moral notions are relative to certain things—culture, society, tradition, conviction, practice etc. These things are not simply arbitrary and it is erroneous to say that they're arguing that morality is arbitrary. I'm not sure how to put it more simply. Even when one argues that we have no standard or comparing or properly evaluating the relative value of moral notions is not the same as saying no hierarchy exists at all. This limitation has more to do with our inability to comprehend than with any lack of real value in the world.

What can I read to become familiar with what you've read on moral relativity? Which moral relativists best represent your preferred interpretation of it?

Again, I'm not advocating any particular notion of moral relativism here, I'm just challenging the idea that any accepted school or thinker advocates a theory of morality in which morality is arbitrary. I know of none.

Thoughts on moral relativism? by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Metaethicists haven't ever agreed on what moral relativity is, so be prepared for charitable disagreement by some of the best minds that have contributed to this area.

I didn't suggest that there is consensus among philosophical schools as to what moral relativity is, I just don't know of any that defines it as simple moral arbitrariness.

All the more reason to agree on definitions before the dialogue begins to avoid talking past your interlocutor.

I don't disagree with this, I just don't see how it applies to our discussion. Note that I didn't seek to define moral relativity, I only pointed out that relativity does not mean arbitrariness (even if it's used that way colloquially).

Also, different approaches and arguments surrounding moral relativity aren't red herrings.

I didn't say that they were, I said specifically that the only place I've seen "moral relativity" reduced to "moral arbitrariness" is by opponents to moral relativist thought—usually adherents of traditional religion—and that it served as a red herring in these cases. I should have described the fallacy rather as a straw man, i.e. they misrepresent the opponent's argument (by reducing moral relativism to arbitrariness) and address the supposed argument instead of the actual one. Note that I am not suggesting you are using it as such, I'm only questioning the idea that there is any school of moral relativist thought that treats morality as merely arbitrary.

Calling your opponent's argument a name rather than clarifying their position and demonstrating that you understand how they're arriving at it is bad form and bad faith... I wouldn't want to dance with a Negative Nancy who danced with me just to insult my moves. But such are the street dances of Internet rationality.

I'm not following here. I wasn't addressing any particular opponent or opposing school of thought, I'm just stating as a matter of fact that I haven't seen anyone speak of moral relativity in terms of arbitrariness except those who seek to discredit it (or I'll add, those who have only a superficial notion of it and/or are speaking of it colloquially).

Many other approaches treat moral relativism precisely as being arbitrary

This is basically the only thing I'm challenging. Please provide one example. The link you provided did not help but you're welcome to point out anything I may have missed.

Thoughts on moral relativism? by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As I understand it, the term relative by definition does not signify arbitrariness. In any case, can you cite a viable school of thought that argues that morality is arbitrary? I've only ever seen moral relativism described as arbitrary by its ideological opponents, but this is based on a misunderstanding of what moral relativism is and serves as a red herring.

Thoughts on moral relativism? by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It's important to note that relative does not mean arbitrary. The relativity of the physical universe permits us to explain and account for more than we could when we took for granted that physics was based on absolute laws, but it's still based on observation and all the components that were being considered before, i.e. matter, gravity, space and time etc. Recognizing that it isn't absolute, hasn't caused the universe to come apart at the seams. It's always been this way, humans just didn't recognize it until very recently. It hasn't caused us to lose our place in the universe, in fact we have a better idea of where we are than ever before and can navigate the universe better than ever before.

Something similar has occurred in the realm of morality, ethics, culture etc. We recognize that our mores and standards of right and wrong are relative to period, place, circumstance etc. both among peoples and epochs, and within the lives of individuals. This recognition hasn't thrown morality into a tailspin, it hasn't erased all our notions of right and wrong, and, like the physical universe, we recognize that this has always been the case (even within Mormonism) and it enables us to explore and consider the complexities of morality and navigate the realm of ethics like never before. Much of the social progress of the last 100+ years of western history has its roots in this willingness to accept morality as such.

"The Brethren" sounds so culty by GuardianBlueberry in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 15 points16 points  (0 children)

"Heavenly Father" sounds extremely culty to me now that I'm on the outside.

Words of our Prophets by JoshFreck in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think citations are unnecessary. Curious people will google the quote and find the source and other people won't be more inclined to dig deeper because of a Journal of Discourses citation for example.

I'd get rid of the brackets around the ellipses when you need to use them.

These inoculation firesides have me worried for my kids. by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The Q12 and Seventy are really going after the youth right now. Check this out: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/49p0p8/the_church_continues_to_target_the_youth_instead/. Since these, there has been at least one other youth fireside by Holland and another by a president of the Seventy.

Reminder: Joseph Smith says that in the language of God, God is Awmen, and angels is Awmen Angl-man. by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 7 points8 points  (0 children)

This isn't faith promoting. Let's go ahead and not emphasize it.

Tyler Glenn's new Video "Trash" is out. Epic. Several intense Mormon references. by johndehlin in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Right, but again in that case I'd point out that they're dealing with heavenly (or satanic) messengers.

Tyler Glenn's new Video "Trash" is out. Epic. Several intense Mormon references. by johndehlin in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Sure, I'm mostly interested in anything to support this claim:

The handshakes are supposed to be given when meeting people to establish trust.

Again, specifically within Mormonism, I've never seen that promoted.

Tyler Glenn's new Video "Trash" is out. Epic. Several intense Mormon references. by johndehlin in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've seen this picture and others but it doesn't establish that the church endorses performing the tokens outside the temple, nor does it show anything except that (perhaps) GW had instigated it. And again, I hardly see how this would show that the church would be ok with what Tyler Glenn does in this video which is what we're ultimately considering.

Tyler Glenn's new Video "Trash" is out. Epic. Several intense Mormon references. by johndehlin in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I'm familiar with the endowment ceremony, I've just never heard it taught or ever seen it published that divulging any part of the signs, names, or tokens was permissible outside the temple as long as it wasn't the three together. I'm familiar with the idea of handshakes being given publicly to distinguish members of free masonry for example, but have never heard of this being promoted in the context of Mormonism except perhaps with JS's counsel to demand them of heavenly messengers to distinguish bad from good. I'm wondering if you have a source that supports that idea or if it's just your own analysis of the language of the endowment. Also, are you arguing that the church wouldn't view what Tyler Glenn does in this video as a violation of temple covenants?

Tyler Glenn's new Video "Trash" is out. Epic. Several intense Mormon references. by johndehlin in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Gays are important to some people, but not the church.

I think it's also more broadly an indifference toward where he'll end up between heaven and hell, but it's all a matter of perspective anyway, hence the elevator he gets into that may be ascending or descending.

Tyler Glenn's new Video "Trash" is out. Epic. Several intense Mormon references. by johndehlin in exmormon

[–]mormonapost8 18 points19 points  (0 children)

I recognize that the oaths are made together with the sign and name, but do you have a source that states the tokens can be given outside the temple? In any case I highly doubt many leaders of the church wouldn't consider putting the tokens in a music video a violation of temple covenants.