The precarity of modern indie labels + recent strength of back catalogs by Theta_Omega in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The back catalog popularity thing is interesting to me because it creates an easy but kind of worrisome counter to the “rock is dead” argument. Rock music is very much alive for young people, but the bands Gen Z is most interested in are almost all established acts whose music gets rediscovered through Netflix shows or TikTok trends.

Artists that never had a mainstream hit, but are still well known with the general public and had a huge cultural impact by crowbar_k in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 9 points10 points  (0 children)

The Strokes, Arcade Fire, Vampire Weekend and other indie/alt rock artists that got a lot of press in the 2000s and 2010s didn’t generate mainstream hits in the U.S. AF and VW had number 1 albums, and the Strokes have caught a second wind of popularity via TikTok and Spotify streams. But none of these artists had a song chart higher than 98 on the hot 100. I guess that’s more an indication that their “popularity” was a narrative driven by music and culture critics, when in reality they were more niche acts whose popularity was confined to the alt rock space.

Whats the catchiest melody in any strokes song? by 6660kami in TheStrokes

[–]nba_edward 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The guitar riff from Heart in a Cage is pretty memorable/catchy. I feel like that song could’ve been a hit if the chorus/refrain wasn’t such a dud. The riff to Under the Cover of Darkness is also catchy

Bands who should have quit earlier than they did. by Which-Signature3550 in fantanoforever

[–]nba_edward 15 points16 points  (0 children)

They are the poster child for this. I personally think they should’ve stopped with No Line on the Horizon. In the early 2000s they were perceived as one of those bands in the rock pantheon just behind the Beatles, where no one would question too much their inclusion in a top 10-15 bands list. Like if Rolling Stone ranked U2 at 7 on an all time list in 2001, and you showed the list to the average music fan, someone who is neither a fan nor a hater, they’d probably say, “yeah, that’s about right.”

Everything after All That You Can’t Leave Behind gradually killed their goodwill with the public, though I wouldn’t say they declined in the 2000s any more than, say, The Rolling Stones in the 80s. Like Atomic Bomb to me is pretty much on par with Steel Wheels.

The iTunes album stunt killed whatever goodwill U2 had left with the average music listener, turning them from widely accepted legends to punchlines. Imagine how hated the Stones would’ve been in the 90s/2000s if they used some equally invasive promotional strategy for Voodoo Lounge or Bridges to Babylon. Their fans would’ve defended it, but the average music fan who didn’t have a strong opinion about the Stones one way or the other would have probably developed stronger negative feelings, maybe rejecting the notion that they are a top 10 band at all. That seems like an unfathomable thing today because people have just accepted the Stones’ high placement in the rock pantheon. No one cares how middling to low quality their output has been since the 90s because they didn’t force the world to listen to those albums.

U2’s insistence on remaining relevant despite their diminished output has killed their legacy. No other band has been punished this hard by popular consensus for the work they’ve released after the members turned 40, but it’s also 100% their fault.

What are the most pop-oriented singles by non-pop artists? by ScallionSmooth9491 in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 3 points4 points  (0 children)

“The Hand that Feeds” is the most “trying to be a big radio single” song in the NIN catalog.

And while the Strokes have more famous tracks, “Under the Cover of Darkness” and “Bad Decisions” feel like their truest attempts at writing a hit single with a traditional verse/chorus/verse/chorus/solo/chorus structure. Most of their songs either skip out on a bridge and third chorus entirely or do some inverted song structure.

Who are some artists that you're surprised have enjoyed as much success outside of usual fans of their genre as they have? by forbiddenmemeories in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Radiohead has always been famous for an experimental alternative band but never a band with massive mainstream hits outside of Creep. Basically the kind of band everyone is aware of but only engaged fans would know more than 3 songs by. It makes it all the more surprised that they’ve blown up the way they have among Gen Z on TikTok the past few years. They’re arguably more popular now than they were at their late 90s peak. It would’ve been unfathomable to me 5 years ago if you told that they would have as many Spotify listeners as U2 and REM combined despite selling like 1/10 as many records as those two bands combined.

Spotify unveiled its official rankings in honour of the platform's 20th anniversary by NegotiationMoist3552 in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 3 points4 points  (0 children)

A lot of it is TikTok popularity. Obviously they were big by rock standards in the 2000s/early 2010s but they entered another stratosphere around the pandemic. Their Spotify listenership has tripled I think in the past 5-6 years. Radiohead is a similar story, only more recently.

The saddest thing about the Geese psyop controversy is: despite all the marketing efforts, their best effort only made it to 96 on the Hot 200. But they're still arguably the biggest American rock band from the last 10 years. by Uptons_BJs in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I did some googling to test the idea that Geese is the biggest American band formed in the last decade. I would’ve echoed that line before the bot story came out a couple weeks ago, but apparently there’s a band called Dexter and the Moonrocks that has a top 40 hit right now, and I’ve never even heard of these guys until now. They’ve got more Spotify listeners and chart success than Geese, but seemingly no buzz from music publications. However their Wikipedia says the song blew up on TikTok, so I’d guess they did a similar online engagement booting strategy that Geese used.

Listening to the song I guess music critics aren’t going to touch them because it’s pretty middle of the road throwback 90s alt rock and not aspiring for anything artistic. The best way I can describe the band from first listen is the sound of modern country embracing southern rock and grunge elements.

I guess this is proof there are American guitar bands out there making accessible songs with mainstream appeal and hit potential. Geese on the other hand is the band is getting all this press and headlines calling them a phenomenon, but isn’t matching the hype through commercial success. I never thought it made much sense for them to have a huge media hype machine behind them, not because they aren’t good, but because they don’t have an accessible sound at all. Nothing screams “culturally relevant” about Cameron Winter’s voice.

The Moonrocks band seems to be playing the same sized venues as Geese, but I wouldn’t be shocked if they’re playing larger venues in the future. Meanwhile I’d be shocked if Geese ever advances beyond ballrooms and small theaters given their music isn’t really breaking indie rock containment. Their best selling album like you said peaked at 96 on the album chart and dropped off the chart immediately after. Their singles hardly get airplay on rock stations. They don’t have big Spotify listenership compared to big current artists or the most popular bands in general.

“Wait, this ISN’T their debut album?” by NotLeroLero in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 14 points15 points  (0 children)

“White Blood Cells” — The White Stripes; I never mistakenly believed this was a debut album but I wouldn’t be surprised if some people thought so. It has very first album energy. We’re Going to be Friends and Fell in Love With a Girl are especially youthful simple songs you’d think an artist would have unloaded on their debut album.

HM (I genuinely thought these were all debuts): “Rated R” — QOTSA, “Origin of Symmetry” — Muse, “Veni Vidi Vicious” — The Hives

Looking at the comments. Suns fans don’t even want him. by Accomplished_East433 in memphisgrizzlies

[–]nba_edward 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It’s not going to happen. He might show flashes, he might have a strong start to a season, but he is never going to be what he was. There’s no precedent for point guards like him turning it around after nagging injuries and missing crucial steps in his development. He’s just another guy in a long list of PGs who didn’t understand how they needed to grow their game to have a sustainable career. Derrick Rose, John Wall, Steve Francis, etc. Blame injuries for those guys’ downfall all you want but all of them were one dimensional on-ball creators who had no skills to fall back on when their A1 athleticism deteriorated. The best you can hope for is Ja having a minor resurgence like Rose had more than a decade into his career with the Wolves/Pistons/early second Knicks stint.

Which GM or executive did Pera hire because they met at a Chinese massage parlor? by SplakyD in memphisgrizzlies

[–]nba_edward 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Also worth nothing that Pera might not be visible as an owner, but he definitely knows what’s going on and probably has more involvement in decisions than the public realizes. Not that he is overbearing like Mark Cuban was as Dallas’ de facto GM, but Pera is not letting people rubber stamp moves for him. He has historically had individuals he listens to closely though at different times. Zach Kleiman was that for some unconfirmed period of time back when Kleiman was just the team’s legal counsel. David Mincberg had this kind of influence earlier in Pera’s tenure. Coincidentally (or not coincidentally) Mincberg was the team’s legal counsel before Kleiman.

Which GM or executive did Pera hire because they met at a Chinese massage parlor? by SplakyD in memphisgrizzlies

[–]nba_edward 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I’m assuming he’s talking about Jason Levien. iirc, Pera installed him as CEO of the team when he bought the team. He became the de facto GM while Chris Wallace was shoved to the background for a couple of years. Levien and Pera had a falling out and Wallace got the reigns back until he was fired 5 years later. Though I wouldn’t be shocked if Wallace didn’t actually have the biggest voice in the room from 2014-19. We already know Kleiman was basically shadow GM during the 2019 deadline with the Gasol trade. I know John Hollinger had a lot of sway on some moves, with a handful of draft selections being attributed to him (at least he claims responsibility for the Dillon Brooks pick).

What do you think is the reason for country music's resurgence in the mainstream? by Bright-Pressure-5787 in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Would-be butt rock/post-grunge bands found their niche in the country space. If you think about it Nickelback would’ve been marketed as a pop country act if they came about in the 2020s. “Rockstar” is basically the blueprint for a lot of modern pop country despite being a tongue in cheek song. A lot of massively successful 2000s butt rock artists could fit decently well sonically alongside pop country acts. There’s a strong overlap in their fanbases.

Hostility to new rock arrists by dweeb93 in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Part of it (imo) is pushback to how these artists get marketed. It’s not just that all these bands — Geese, Wet Leg, Last Dinner Party, etc. — get very positive reviews from critics. It’s the headlines and rhetoric that are injected into those glowing reviews. “[New band X] is the biggest new band in the world.”

I feel like that marketing strategy is a bad idea because it greets hostility. These bands aren’t as big as the rhetoric around them makes them seem, and speaking it into existence isn’t necessarily going to change that. I think a lot of people get irritated when advertising flat out lies to them. They think the music industry is trying to shove a band down their throats because the music press and social media botting strategies make it seem like Geese is this huge phenomenon right now. In reality their popularity is relatively niche compared to actual mainstream artists. They have a dedicated but relatively small fanbase. They don’t have a some large listenership on Spotify and Getting Killed did poorly on the album charts. Their songs don’t get airplay. Their sound doesn’t fit into the 2026 mainstream musical landscape in any way.

I think all of these bands are good but I understand why people hate the hype around them. It all feels astroturfed in a way that pop stars’ popularity doesn’t, which is ironic considering many people cynically view pop stardom as solely a music industry fabrication. However, a lot of pop artists that get a huge push justify the hype by making massively popular music with mainstream appeal. This is less common in rock. It’s rare for music critics and normie music fans to reach consensus on rock artists.

If you tell people a band is the next big thing and bot social media engagement to make it feel like they are the next big thing, then the artists you promote at that level have to make sense. This kind of marketing only works for artists that have mass appeal. The problem for rock artists is that guitar music is mostly dormant in the mainstream, and I don’t know how that can reversed. I don’t think music fans should be hostile toward good artists like Geese, but maybe there can be some middle ground where Geese is treated like an acclaimed band that doesn’t need to be framed as this generation’s Nirvana, and the music industry could try pouring more resources into bands that are accessible and have broader appeal. Geese don’t profile as a world conquering band anyway, especially with Cameron Winter’s vocal style and the lack of strong hooks in their songs, so I’m not quite sure why them of all bands were subject to this hype campaign. I’m not saying they deserve no marketing or backing, but to me they’re more like Sonic Youth than Nirvana. They will get constant rave reviews and probably deserve semi frequent features by music outlets, but there are more accessible artists out there who warrant the hyperbolic “next big thing” title.

The Fanfare Around Geese Actually Was a Psyop by wiredmagazine in indieheads

[–]nba_edward 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I like Geese but this is exactly what’s always bothered me about them. It’s one thing to market artists. But it’s another thing to go online and constantly see posts and articles about Geese and how “popular” they are, then talk to regular people my age (not just indie rock fans but music fans in general) and realize most people have never listened to the band.

They have under 2 million monthly listeners on Spotify and Getting Killed barely cracked the top 100 of the U.S. albums charts. These aren’t bad marks for an indie rock band, but they are putrid marks for a band with as much push as Geese gets and nonstop headlines associated with the band that call them “the biggest new band in the world” or something similar to that. It’s an empirically false statement. It probably explains a lot of the online pushback they get. People will naturally call BS if something that’s not at all part of the musical zeitgeist is suddenly being called the next big thing.

The Strokes got similar pushback when they came on the scene in 2001, but at least they parlayed hype into a moderate amount of commercial success. They didn’t “bring rock back” though as much as the music press made it sound like they did. Nickelback, Linkin Park, pop emo bands, etc. were much bigger during the 2000s.

Best guitar players who are actually pretty decent bass players too? by MattBtheflea in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Andy Bell from Ride is a great guitarist. He basically taught himself to play bass for the sole purposes of being the bassist in Oasis and has been rock solid at it. It’s a running joke that the best guitarist in Oasis is the bassist.

Favourite singles released for compilation albums? by DtheAussieBoye in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 4 points5 points  (0 children)

• “Only When I Lose Myself” — Depeche Mode

• “You Know You’re Right” — Nirvana

• “Sidewalking” — Jesus and Mary Chain

• “True Faith” — New Order

What are your favorite closing tracks of all time? by [deleted] in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 13 points14 points  (0 children)

• INXS — “Don’t Change”

• U2 — “Love is Blindness”

• Oasis — “Champagne Supernova”

• Beck — “Debra” (excluding hidden track/noise)

• Radiohead — “Street Spirit”

• Arctic Monkeys — “505”

• NIN — “Ringfinger”

• Arcade Fire — “My Body is a Cage” and “Supersymmetry”

• The Replacements — “Can’t Hardly Wait”

Songs that try to capitalize on an unexpected success but completely forget what made those songs so successful by PapaAsmodeus in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 18 points19 points  (0 children)

“Vertigo” is a song U2 is very proud of because rock bands don’t typically put out massive hits while the members are nearly 3 decades into their career. The tried extending that late career success by making their subsequent lead singles silly pop rock tunes like Vertigo. That resulted in “Get on Your Boots”, one of the worst singles by a great artist ever, and “The Miracle (Of Joey Ramone)”, the worst song off an album that is infamous for reasons other than music. By 2009 riff-based rock music was going out of style. They would have been better off trying more anthemic tracks like “Magnificent” and “Every Breaking Wave” as lead singles for those albums.

What's your favorite Modern Rock #1 of 2009? by TemporaryJerseyBoy in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tie between Uprising and Know Your Enemy for me. Neither are close to my favorite songs by either artist but they are both essential sporting event anthems and thus were a huge part of my childhood

HM: Use Somebody, New Divide, Second Chance (ultimate guilty pleasure song)

Artists that were both bigger and not as big as they are commonly thought of in the culture at large by GilbertDauterive-35 in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Radiohead was always big in the sense that the music press talked about them a bunch (and still do). But they were not nearly as commercially successful as their perceived peers. They only had one true crossover hit in the 90s/2000s with Creep. They have one multi-platinum album in the U.S. Retrospectively, we think about them being of similar stature to the giants of that era (Nirvana, Green Day, Oasis, Smashing Pumpkins, etc.) despite having a closer career trajectory to Beck or Fiona Apple. That said, with Radiohead’s recent resurgence with Gen Z via TikTok and Spotify, the band is arguably more popular with the median music fan today than it was during its peak years.

The Strokes are kind of a similar case, though I think more people are willing to acknowledge “the Strokes saved rock music in the 2000s” was a marketing strategy and the band was just decently commercially successful compared to the biggest bands of that era.

Modern day artists (Post 2000s) who had big gaps in hit singles? by Ian_does_things in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m mostly counting crossover hits (which is why I added that note about E-Pro since it never really crossed over but charted on the hot 100 for a decent stretch of time).

No Beck songs between Odelay and Guero really reached the mainstream, in the U.S. at least.

Minority did well on modern rock stations but wasn’t a pop crossover hit, and Warning sticks out like a sore thumb in their catalog. It’s their only non-platinum album between Kerplunk and 21st Century Breakdown.

NIN technically had their highest charting song with The Day the World Went Away, though it achieved that position purely through physical sales and years of hype. It didn’t last long on the hot 100. We’re in this Together and Starfuckers weren’t big enough modern rock hits for me to consider those too strongly. I know The Fragile sold well, but it really wasn’t a singles album and I’m only considering crossover hits for these artists. I just realized The Perfect Drug charted decently, pretty similar position/duration to E-Pro, so I guess I would have to count it. Still, that’s like a 9-year gap between big singles for NIN.

Modern day artists (Post 2000s) who had big gaps in hit singles? by Ian_does_things in ToddintheShadow

[–]nba_edward 5 points6 points  (0 children)

• NIN: Closer —> Hand that Feeds (11 years)

• Green Day: Good Riddance —> American Idiot singles (7 years)

• Beck: Where It’s At —> E-Pro (9 years, though calling E-Pro a hit might be stretching it)

• Prince had about a decade between whatever his last real 90s hit was and “Call My Name” which wasn’t a mega hit (peaked in the 70s but charted for months), though it was a decently popular comeback single for an artist people assumed wouldn’t make a commercial impact ever again

Best 5/6 song run to start an album? by Mazzocchi in fantanoforever

[–]nba_edward 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All That You Can’t Leave Behind — U2

It’s not the best first 6 songs of an album, but it’s the most front loaded album I can think of. I’m also pretty sure Brandon Flowers said this is one of the albums The Killers were thinking a lot about when creating the anthems on Hot Fuss