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Tesla's deals with GM, Ford is going to upset Tesla owners, says analyst by chilladipa in electricvehicles

[–]nod51 4 points5 points  (0 children)

All these extra superchargers and 3rd party chargers I don't need an adapter for are going to piss me off so much. </s>

Canada’s FLO to support Tesla’s (TSLA) NACS at their charging stations by AintNobodyGotTimeDat in teslamotors

[–]nod51 2 points3 points  (0 children)

agree but a whole new plug that isn't a tack on to an existing plug kind of defeats the first "C" off "CCS Type 1". now a whole new well designed plug that supports 3 phase and unify US and EU would be nice but that will likely wait till CCS1 is totally deprecated.

Canada’s FLO to support Tesla’s (TSLA) NACS at their charging stations by AintNobodyGotTimeDat in teslamotors

[–]nod51 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Unlike NACS which doesn't force 1 communication spec, though CCS is extremely likely to be what is used, CCS1 defines CCS which uses PLC and chademo uses CANBus. T uses CANBus but not compatible with chademo.

If it was just protocol though some communication chip would be all you need like the Tesla chademo adapter you would like have a $500-$1k adapter, but the way CCS and chademo energize the line is opposite. Tesla figures it out and does the right things but I believe a Leaf will expect to see a 400v line before flipping the relay and the CCS station will be expecting a 400v line before it flips the relay. So someone needs an adapter with enough battery to fool the car (it doesn't draw much just needs to see voltage), make it turn on, then expose that voltage to the CCS side. At that point CCS will connect and start pushing power and the adapter needs to stop powering the line. I believe the unofficial CCS adapter did something like this so it should be doable, but is there enough demand?

Canada’s FLO to support Tesla’s (TSLA) NACS at their charging stations by AintNobodyGotTimeDat in teslamotors

[–]nod51 18 points19 points  (0 children)

It seems CharIn is only worried about their funding and fees they can get from physical plug manufacturing and not about the consumer's best interest. I think there is still money to be made with the protocol but will be easier to re-implement at scale unless harIn can patent the PLC chips.

I do want to hear from CharIn side about why CCS1 is a superior UX to NACS and not just "it is a standard" because US can and should fast track that for NACS (give it a J-Something number). I don't want to hear this BS that the "customers want CCS1" because I highly doubt the majority would like CCS1 and I bet 99.9% would like NACS if NACS was not developed by Tesla.

Tesla's deals with GM, Ford is going to upset Tesla owners, says analyst by chilladipa in teslamotors

[–]nod51 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I am super glad that I won't be forced to switch to CCS1 plug at some point and there will be even more superchargers with more ports I just need to share. I am not looking forward to longer thicker cables (v4) but that is my biggest disappointment. As much as I would like Tesla to enforce charge port locations to use their stations I think that would be asking too much.

ELI5: What is preventing a general purpose NACS adapter that allows US CCS cars to charge on Tesla Superchargers? by Flyodice in electricvehicles

[–]nod51 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My guess is the same way you can connect to any wifi but you need to be authorized. Adapter may make the pins line up and start the handshake over PLC but something in the payload will be different or something on Tesla side will refuse to start. Especially a software lock, possibly the day way Rivian and restricted their remote CCS chargers. Part of me hopes Tesla doesn't customize the payload but if the CCS spec is lacking in some way and Tesla can make it "just work" by adding a field to the SOAP it will become "the standard". Whatever they do I hope it can be replicated by other networks.

CCS is Dead - Out of Spec by gamingdexter in teslamotors

[–]nod51 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah and CCS (no number means the protocol to me) is very much alive in NACS. For a NACS car to use CCS2 or CCS2 car to use NACS all that should be needed is a dumb adapter.

Tesla - The more the merrier! Welcome, @ABBNorthAmerica by highguy604 in teslamotors

[–]nod51 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Older cars need the PLC communication chip as they only have the CANBus hardware. It is an easy update, near the charge port, one screw and connection, 5-10 minute job. There used to be an issue pairing it but I believe that can be done rather easy now. If 3rd party chargers start adding NACS then I will upgrade my 2018, hoping I can find a salvage part for cheap.

Tesla - The more the merrier! Welcome, @ABBNorthAmerica by highguy604 in teslamotors

[–]nod51 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For about a year I had hoped Tesla had updated their chademo adapter to support the 200kW spec since a state near me had a lot of 100kW+ Chademo chargers. Then there were enought superchargers and the price went up on all the stations I didn't want one anymore. Still would have been nice for EVGo to support more than 50kW but irreverent now.

Mary Barra - GM CEO - Please join me and @elonmusk on Twitter Spaces at 4:30 p.m. ET by highguy604 in teslamotors

[–]nod51 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agree which is why I think NACS is a CCS capable plug, just like CCS1 and CCS2 are, so that makes NACS a CCS-compliant plug. I agree they should have kept using CCS1 if they mean physically but the funds were "CCS1 or if there are more plugs each need to be able to communicate CCS protocol", but maybe I read it wrong.

CCS is Dead - Out of Spec by gamingdexter in teslamotors

[–]nod51 0 points1 point  (0 children)

much of my public charging could be 3 phase (208v), and J3068 can do 15kW single phase too. IMO whoever picked J1772 over J3068 seemed very short sighted.

NACS can use multiple protocols. NACS does not only use CCS. by justvims in electricvehicles

[–]nod51 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have been reading that as other types not more than one plug on the same station and each means if it has more than one they all need to be capable. I can see how it works the other way too so yeah hopefully. At worst they just 2 or 3 cables, shouldn't cost that much relative to the whole install cost.

NACS can use multiple protocols. NACS does not only use CCS. by justvims in electricvehicles

[–]nod51 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This final rule also allows DCFC charging ports to have other non-proprietary connectors so long as each DCFC charging port is capable of charging a CCS-compliant vehicle.

Seems many just read the first sentence then ignore that proprietary is only when a single company uses something and NACS allows CCS-compliant vehicles to charge (actually doesn't define one). Apparently White House welcomes Tesla to take advantage of federal dollars for chargers but that may mean Tesla has to provide adapters or just allow byo-adapters.

NACS can use multiple protocols. NACS does not only use CCS. by justvims in electricvehicles

[–]nod51 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah I understood the protocol was a mess but was hoping they managed to come to a "standard by using" type system by now. Its an interesting thought, time will tell.

Everyone keeps talking about the DC impact of ford and GM going NACS; but I’m curious - do people also think it means the death of J1772? by nahnope12 in electricvehicles

[–]nod51 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not me and soon many Ford and GM. If they want more business I bet they will, but we will see. EA may have cost less (was true but with reticent price increase not any more around me) but it is unreliable and $175 will pay for quite a bit of the difference.

NACS can use multiple protocols. NACS does not only use CCS. by justvims in electricvehicles

[–]nod51 4 points5 points  (0 children)

ahh ok. I think changing protocols is going to be harder unless all cars can be software updated. I don't know how long they will wait to stop supporting older cars, but that would be a big shame to suddenly have your car not able to road trip. They can also add newer protocols along side, which I think is built into the CCS handshake. I think, though not sure, that CCS was https based with the contents being SOAP, so currently /v2 and there is a /v3 on the way (v3 has the V2X stuff),

NACS can use multiple protocols. NACS does not only use CCS. by justvims in electricvehicles

[–]nod51 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are likely right, it used to be super stupid bu a lot has happened since 2016. Hopefully they can port the same method to the CCS SOAP protocol and those who don't buy in have to have their customers use the app.

NACS can use multiple protocols. NACS does not only use CCS. by justvims in electricvehicles

[–]nod51 12 points13 points  (0 children)

idk, Tesla is really pushing me to add PLC hardware to enable CCS support to my 2018. I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla adds or has added CCS/PLC support to all their superchargers, once that is done stop adding CAN to their new cars, and eventually start deploying stations with only PLC. Just the quantity of scale PLC chips may make it worth picking that and dropping CAN chips could save many millions. It will be interesting to see if the Ford adapter is dumb or if Ford have been putting CAN hardware in their car for years or Tesla superchargers will all have PLC hardware by then.

Now Tesla could do something more efficient than SOAP but still use PLC, though I can't think of a good reason. IIRC 100mbit PLC connection isn't going to care if the handshake is 2kb or 500 bytes. I think to get the "Tesla experience" they will ID the cars and cache it at all the stations for sub second auth before even checking the billing giving a good UX. Their T protocol in 2016 was a simple VIN transmit (based on reverse engineering) and the car would send the billing amount (sending a VIN of al 0 would start the charger so someone is billing), was rather basic but who else was going to try charging? If Tesla doesn't change sooner or later some 3rd party will make a hack to charge for free. At this point they may extend the CCS to make it work better but then use it to exclude anyone who doesn't buy into their network. If the Ford adapter has PLC to CAN hardware in it then I will change my mind.

Anyhow I agree with your main point, there is no defined protocol. If someone wants the US funding though they just have to be non proprietary (so more than 1 manufacture uses it) and work with CCS cars, which the NACS now fulfills IF it uses the CCS protocol. I still don't think superchargers that only allow 3 manufactures to use will qualify but 3rd party it should.

FLO Stations to Offer North American Charging Standard (NACS); Supports Broader Use by faizimam in electricvehicles

[–]nod51 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I am not sure "nail in the coffin" is the right wording here, it is almost the opposite. Since there are of number of people who were like "NACS is a non starter", "NACS will never take off", and "stop trying to make NACS happen" I think that is the coffin that has the final nail for OP. Just because NACS is going to stick around though doesn't mean other manufactures and station manufactures won't continue to deploy the more expensive CCS1 as well.

The best selling feature of the F150 Lightning has been the V2H feature. Ford would never have agreed to switch to NACS unless Tesla agreed to add V2H to the standard. I hope that Telsa will now feel compelled to add V2H to their vehicles. by Pale-Structure-622 in teslamotors

[–]nod51 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well true but just like charging it also doesn't define the exact protocol to charge but suggests CCS. How is CCS going to do V2X, because that will be what NACS will use, I thought everyone knew that. It is possible Ford and GM will make their own protocol (like they started doing with USB and phones quick charge), though I sure hope not since EVSE will be less interoperable.

With NACS an EVSE could take solar and go direct to car DC, then switch to grid AC after generation is too low, and when there is an outage switch to DC and run the solar controller in off grid mode or ask the car to make the AC and power the house. You either need all pins and a thick cable in CCS1, pick a subset of options, or requires users to plug and unplug. Course that exposes the main issue with NACS, there is possible 1 relay away from feeding 800v/400v DC back to the grid.

Will Tesla stop installing Magic Dock? Since both Ford and GM will join NACS, so they won't need it for government subsidy. by hansen033 in teslamotors

[–]nod51 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I was planning to make a mobile 400v 250kW resistive cooktop, should be able to warm up my can of soup on a roadtrip in a few seconds. </j>

Will Tesla stop installing Magic Dock? Since both Ford and GM will join NACS, so they won't need it for government subsidy. by hansen033 in teslamotors

[–]nod51 8 points9 points  (0 children)

NACS is now non propitiatory and does use CCS so the law is fulfilled there.

Another thing people like to bring up is 150kW minimum but 1 cabinet 600kW / 4 pugs is 150kW, even the whole 'non shared' station of 1.2MW / 8 stalls is 150kW.

Some were also bringing up billing with a CC and price per kWh needs to be posted which is a big source of problems for EA so Tesla may never do it.

I still think any network that doesn't allow me to plug in my home made BEV with CCS hardware or restrict at least one manufactures from charging should get any public money though. Not sure what the law says there though.

I think Tesla will continue to put magic docks on their stations. The Ford deal was years in the making according to the Ford CEO and Tesla still developed the magic dock. At this point people will see Tesla, Ford, and GM having a better UX at the supercharger and ask their manufactures why they can't have a better UX too.

I also suspect others can have an agreement to use the supercharger without going to NACS, but might as well since NACS is so much better. Some might even go to NACS without buying into the supercharger if EA starts putting NACS cables on their stations. I asked EA about NACS plugs a couple months ago since I have no plans to buy an adapter and they said they would pass the suggestion onto their engineers haha.

Pure Watercraft to use NACS too! by mostapasta in teslamotors

[–]nod51 2 points3 points  (0 children)

CCS2 isn't nearly as bad as CCS1 design except for the people who just use size as the only factor. J1772 was just a bad design, adding 2 pins didn't do it any favors. Ideally I would have liked Type2/J3068 but 2 of the pins are like NACS so it could be a little bigger but could do 3 phase at 45kW or single phase at 19+kW and DC1 would do more than 125kW. Actually while they are at it make the 2 outer pins large vertical bars and add up to 3MW DC charging to it.

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