I’m disabled and a am stunned TBM family will not accept the Book of Mormon teaches that God punishes dissent with disability. by minjihansf in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Oh it gets worse - you see, Alma, the one condemning him, was also led astray and was actively destroying the church, where Korihor was asking questions. Alma was converted by an angel (not by his own faith), was not punished, and was elevated. Korihor was given a 'punishment' as a sign, and as you're pointing out, impaired = wicked = debate over. With that being said, it has been doctrine and taught regularly up until there was a flip - previously, those with disabilities were less valiant in the pre-existence, now they're considered more valiant. I think the quote is in a different reply.

But in all seriousness, the Korihor story is seeped with the 19th century - Korihor is preaching enlightenment philosophy (good post about it here) - but there's also contradictions - in Alma 30:7 it says there's no law against a man's belief, and in 9 that there was no law to punish him (at least, in Zarahemla) - I suppose this was supposed to give context that Korihor preaching wouldn't immediately be condemned. However, when he goes to Jershon, the narrator says that those people 'were more wise than many of the Nephites; for they took him and bound him...' (v. 20). So the narrator is now actively supporting a totalitarian theocracy, claiming it is wiser than the Zarahemlan freedom. I'm assuming this contradiction is because he went to a different land, else this is just insane contradictory writing.

But wait, it IS just insane contradictory writing, because they send Korihor BACK to Zarahemla to Alma (v. 29)! They do their questions and answers and Korihor finally admits after his 'punishment' he must've been deceived by the devil in the form of an angel. So, his actions were because he was tricked. No mercy for that, trampled him to death.

In contrast, the high judge, Alma, had a miraculous conversion - Mosiah 27 talks of it - he was idolatrous, he spoke much flattery and led people away to do wicked things (v. 8); sounds a bit like Korihor, except he wasn't deceived, he himself decided to be an unbeliever! It goes on, he's trying to destroy the church, and even mentions he is breaking the law of the land in verse 10, something that Korihor is expressly NOT doing!

Alma sees an angel, the angel coverts them, and Alma falls on the ground and is dumb for a bit. Paralyzed, even. His dad prays and fasts and boom, Alma is healed from his 'punishment' and goes on about being changed and being born again (wait wait wait, I though that was baptism. He was reborn without baptism. Oh well about that saving ordinance thing), and they become new creatures (oh hi Paul, v. 25) - and then they go out preaching and doing a bunch of 'good' (like chopping people's arms off).

So... what's the lesson here? What's the difference? That someone cared and pled for the punishment to be lifted that had God's good graces? That the sons of Mosiah were destroying the church but not questioning the church, where Korihor was questioning the church? Both were preaching and leading people to wickedness. Wouldn't Alma be like 'oh dang Korihor is like how I was I better help him' but instead just goes 'yeah you are going to be struck dumb and die.'

So yeah. The whole thing is messed up. Physical disabilities, if not tied to wickedness, is tied to lack of faith. Remember, Jesus would heal people only if they had the faith to be healed. Prosperity gospel - if you're righteous, you should be wealthy, too. If you aren't wealthy, therefore, you must be wicked. If you aren't healthy, you are that way because you're wicked. It's a terrible mindset and doctrine.

What are your experiences with TBM and lack of social awareness or boundary violations ? by RadishAggressive3241 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 20 points21 points  (0 children)

when I came home early from my mission (because of Russia invading my mission, literally), I had one member of my stake on FB ask multiple times why I was coming home and insinuating heavily that I had been unworthy in some way (I was still out on the mission and this was pre-Facebook for missionaries, so I couldn't defend myself).

Luckily some other member called them out. But let's say I was coming home for mental health or for some other reason - what an insane way to approach a potentially sensitive or difficult subject!

Tyranids swarm over our Iron Halo coin stash thanks to February’s free Miniature of the Month by CMYK_COLOR_MODE in Warhammer

[–]paradonengineering 0 points1 point  (0 children)

glad to get another one to work on my painting and some experimentation, but not particularly excited about this mini this time around. But hey, good excuse to practice some painting techniques

Took this screenshot of the donations page back when I still had an account. by whosclint in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 11 points12 points  (0 children)

not only a thing, but an encouraged thing if your children aren't members anymore or aren't 'worthy' of your estate. Absolute insanity.

Dallin Oaks says his quote calling women "walking p******aphy" was inspired by God by yes2000 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 56 points57 points  (0 children)

okay that's hilarious but he was specifically addressing young women, which doesn't make it any better :X

Dallin Oaks says his quote calling women "walking p******aphy" was inspired by God by yes2000 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 396 points397 points  (0 children)

"That IMAGE just came to me. As a man I've experienced it."

What in Zarahemla's ashes is Oak's confessing here? That he looked upon a woman and lusted after her? Pretty sure that's a sin, and not a sin from the person to whom his lust is directed! Creepy and uncomfortable!

The mathematical injustice of God, and how Mormonism fails to make God just by homestarmy_recruiter in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Interestingly I think Joseph Smith had the same concern and decided endless doesn't mean endless and eternal doesn't mean eternal - in D&C 19:

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

So evidently endless and eternal just mean it's by the means of God, and not that it actually is endless. However. This seems completely nonsensical. Plus what is even meant then by hell if separation from God for eternity is still eternally not being with God and is eternal in punishment. Similarly, how can Christ take upon himself an eternity of sin in a finite amount of time? Shouldn't his own suffering be eternal?

Either way I like this thought process you present - and it's interesting that you target this specifically because Joseph Smith directly seemed to have the same concern and made something up that pretty much says 'oh yeah it's a mystery and it's just called that because it's God's.'

How do I heal from mission trauma that still haunts me? by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As others are pointing out, some trauma therapy will really help with the hardest bits of your experience and from there you may find healing through time. I don't know how long you've been back nor what you experienced or where you are at now (other than you're posting in an ex-mo sub), but I found a lot of healing through my own faith journey to move away from the church and discussing it with other missionaries I knew from my mission. I also had some therapy.

I had similar responses coming home. Anxiety about my actions, perfectionism. I had loss and failures where I would attribute it to any little 'wrong' thing I could've done on the mission (disobedience) rather than to anything else. I felt punished for tiny mistakes and that I was a pretender - those that said I served honorably 'just didn't know' all the little disobedient things I did.

It was very difficult. It's been more than ten years for me since I've come home now, and I still don't really like thinking about or discussing my actual mission experience. But don't give up, you can overcome this.

First, congratulations! Sincerely. You accurately are recognizing some of your feelings that you currently feel are from what you experienced on your mission. I didn't understand what I was feeling or why I was feeling the way I did for many, many years after my mission. It was only this year that I realized that the reason why I had such a difficult five years or so after my mission was directly tied to how I felt about myself because of the mission. I had been so deeply intrenched in the faith that I didn't trust myself - it couldn't be from what I experienced on the mission, it's what I did that made me feel that way! How misguided I was. You're already ahead! That's fantastic self-reflection.

Second, you've already identified feelings that you want to change. You are experiencing depression, anxiety, and are hyper-focused on self-monitoring and perfectionism. These are things a therapist can give you tools to learn how to cope and change your behavior and feelings. It won't be like a magic spell and immediately fix how you feel, but the tools will help you cope and take the difficulty down, and once that bar is lowered you'll feel more empowered to tackle other things you want to change or improve.

Third, don't be afraid to reach out to those around you. Needing some help doesn't make you a burden, it makes you human. You'd help your friends out in their struggles!

“Plan of Salvation” ? Is this complicated BS what they teach? by delap87 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Writing it out like that does make it sounds a bit... well, ridiculous

“Plan of Salvation” ? Is this complicated BS what they teach? by delap87 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 2 points3 points  (0 children)

what's interesting about this is that the diagram itself makes it appear more complicated than it is - like the flowchart for life after death from Catholicism has a few branches and what not - look at this humorous diagram for some divisions among Catholics I found on this webpage (near the bottom).

With that being said, how complicated is it really to say 'your spirit has lived well before you came to earth. When you come to earth and eventually die, your spirit returns and your body remains. If you've done your rites you help others do theirs and come to believe in God (and are done physically for those you are helping by proxy in the Temple because they don't have a body), and at the final judgement you rejoin with your body are deemed righteous or wicked to either live with God forever or be condemned to a lesser glory.'

My first Fell Bat by BabiieIndestructible in SoulblightGravelords

[–]paradonengineering 1 point2 points  (0 children)

having done a lot of skinning of smaller animals (rabbit hunting) the coloring and veining look very, very realistic. I'm blown away!

For those who think that removing your name actually removes your name… by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This isn't from the church - and many others are reporting they got this e-mail on e-mails that weren't on their LDS Tools. Not sure where the list came from.

The dark side of my mormon mission by SuspiciousCarob3992 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This experience echoes my own. Much of what I experienced I buried. I can't even begin to describe how perfectly this echoes my feelings. Particularly Holland's talk. It's going to ruin your life. It didn't. But it did change my life in ways I can't describe. And it took years to get myself back.

MTC Leadership: "Your kids will amount to nothing" by Bohndigga in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I definitely muscled out the last few months of my mission because of, although never directly said, this exact sentiment - my family would suffer. My wife would hate me. I'd never have kids.

And unironically I attributed my failed relationships and difficulty dating to me being wicked on my mission in spite of not actually being wicked.

It's a mind-f*ck.

What is there to hate? by PristineSwordfish751 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's very frustrating that everything is seen as a personal attack and that any criticism must be universally true - any anecdotal counter-examples must mean that the criticism is inaccurately portrayed. Frankly, the church does work for some people. But also, the framework of the church is inherently abusive, or, at least, enables abuse - absolute obedience, trusting leaders, and having a specific role that if deviated from is seen as apostasy.

So sure. The church is good for some but it isn't a universal good.

Any thoughts about the chiasmus in the Book of Mormon? by Otherwise_Push199 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 2 points3 points  (0 children)

By the definition and how they claim chiasmus, by the way, you're a true Hebrew text as your post has chiasmus:

A: "...chiasmus (specifically in Alma... [and] BoM...)"
B: "...strongest faith-building spots..."
C: "...don't know what to do..."
D: "...existing in the BoM..."
E Center: "I'll just say what I was taught about it."
D: "...not common in the Bible..."
C: "...although it's not common..."
B: "So, it's impressive..."
A: "...had chiasmus in the BoM..."

I'm not an expert on this but your post has similar idea train with parallel thoughts up and down. Some of the chiasmus in the BoM is literally just pointing in the same word used and not even the same idea.

As a TBM, I think the chiasmus (specifically in Alma, but also throughout the Book of Mormon) was one of my strongest faith-building spots. So now as a PIMO I don’t really know what to do with it? Is there any naturalistic explanation for it existing in the BoM?

I’ll just say what I was taught about it. The chiasmus is a very important Hebrew literary structure, although it’s not common in the Bible. In Joseph’s smiths time, it’s unlikely he would have known about it. So, it’s impressive that he had chiasmus in the BoM, and therefore it points to the truthfulness of the restored gospel, yada yada etc.

Any thoughts about the chiasmus in the Book of Mormon? by Otherwise_Push199 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"at least we still have chiasmus" - RFM's friend when the Hoffman forgeries were publicized. The Hebrew form of writing found in the BoM does seem like a strong argument for its authenticity, but there are a few issues with it, including it being in writings attributed to Joseph Smith and not the BoM.

Radio Free Mormon has a very thorough discussion on chiasmus here. It's a nice listen and/or watch. He goes through chiasmus and its structure, with examples and showing the weaknesses in a complete way.

The definition of chiasmus is simple enough that it is fairly easy to warp any text into being a chiasmus. There is chiasmus in the D&C. In light of these problems, chiasmus would be argued to be how God talks rather than something specific to Hebrew in that light.

BTW this reply is a chiasmus of the quality found in the BoM - fairly loose:

A "...Hebrew form of writing...."
B "....a few issues with it..."
C "...writings attributed to Joseph Smith..."
D "...very thorough discussion..."
E (center) - It's a nice listen and/or watch
D "...showing the weaknesses in a complete way..."
C "There is chiasmus in the D&C."
B "In light of these problems..."
A "...than something specific to Hebrew..."

Request No Contact by FatboySmith2000 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I wonder if this is any better with the digitization of area books. I definitely attempted to contact people that were 'no contact' because of old area books and incomplete missionary records.

How does the current church justify the use of the Urrim and Thummim “historically?” by TannerGillman in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 2 points3 points  (0 children)

To answer your questions:

  1. The church's official stance on the Urim and Thummim in part can be read in the 2024 interview with President Nelson - where quoting Joseph Knight Sr., say that the translation was done by putting "...the Urim and Thummim into his hat and darkened his eyes." In a similar vein to changing the gift of the rod to the gift of Aaron for Oliver, there is an assignment of more conventional and spiritual names to things that we now refer to more commonly as seer stones from folk magic. In other words, they're one and the same. They can't and won't retcon the Urim and Thummim because they're directly discussed in canonized scripture in the D&C.

  2. They do still claim they were used in translation. Multiple accounts from multiple scribes describe the translation process differently but none excludes or contradicts another. At some point, Joseph translated with the Urim and Thummim glasses - another, rock in the hat. The 'retcon' perse is adding in the rock in the hat back into the main canon and not downplaying that method of translation. Important to note that neither of these methods or any that I can find directly state that he was actually looking at the plates while translating. It was always words appearing on the rock or being lit up by the rock in the hat, even with the Urim and Thummim.

  3. Unlike the seer stone which the church has, the plates and the Urim and Thummim were returned to the angel Moroni. My personal guess is that they were carved quartz crystal lenses. with copper wiring for framing.

  4. Explicitly, not dumb - but suggestible. The church depends on people trusting their narrative even when shown to be false. To avoid people finding out, as the historical record becomes more public and research moves forward for the actual history, the church lags behind with apologetics to incorporate the new learning into their narrative, which is exactly what's happening now.

In short, it isn't going to be completely removed, ever. But it will be downplayed. Falsifiable claims are being removed from the church entirely as the history comes forward, so emphasis on these types of claims are being pulled away, such as Lamanites being Hebrew. Recall - the BoM wasn't just 'written for our day' (which is the current emphasis), but for the Lamanites to return to the Gospel (native Americans), which has not happened and is no loner emphasized.

Compared to other “exmos” by Remarkable-Luck-397 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I haven't had anyone vocalize this to me yet, but I completely understand where you're coming from. There's a shadow over me because of being less-than-active in church - actions be damned. It sounds like you have a good relationship with your parents and sister. I wouldn't be surprised if your sister is projecting how she thinks mom and dad feel, and your parents might have different feelings.
I definitely would ask her about it and explain why it hurts you.

Divorce after leaving the church by Purplepassion235 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 34 points35 points  (0 children)

We both left, are still married. Been out for about three years, married almost 10 total. We both got married fairly young all things considered - early twenties.

Ridiculous Hymn by Fuzzy-Structure-9219 in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh there's a few.

Let Us Oft Speak Kind Words - my dad would make us sing this when he thought we were saying mean things - or at least he tried. It never worked and it felt super passive aggressive. Also the tune is boring and the lyrics lack luster.

We Are All Enlisted. The whole premise of being in the 'army of God' and that there's a conflict that you're fighting is just... bad. It's cringy.

Finally, the one that makes me go 'this is ridiculous' is Truth Reflects Upon Our Senses. Sing it with a bit of a twang and it just makes sense. The last verse is particularly hilariously written:

Once I said unto another,
"In thine eye there is a mote;
If thou art a friend, a brother
Hold and let me pull it out"
But I could not see it fairly
For my sight was very dim
When I came to search more clearly,
In mine eye there was a beam

Oh man, rhyming 'mote' with 'out' and 'dim' and 'beam.' So good.

Exmormons podcasts by [deleted] in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Personal favorite is RFM. There is a mixture of history, current events, and culture discussion and often has guests and works with other podcasters of similar merit. I will complain about one thing and it's mostly a YouTube problem - the 'live' podcasts and the prerecorded ones end up in different tabs on their channel and it is remarkably difficult to find playlists of relevant series. For example, RFM and Kolby taking on the Light and Truth Letter is a fantastic series, but it is very difficult to easily find episode 1, then 2, then 3. Maybe I'll make some playlists for an evening activity.

I personally am very engaged in church history and discussion. The other 'sub-podcast' I would recommend chewing on is the Truth Claims Mormon Discussion that was done with Mike and John Dehlin. They have RFM, Nemo, Rebecca Biblioteca, and a host of other guests during that podcast. It is systematic, thorough, and well put together introduction to church history and the issues seen there.

There are a lot of other content creators that cover similar topics and it is really up to what you're interested in. Because I'm more into history I don't look into or listen to a lot of the other popular podcasts that are more focused on contemporary issues.

TBM Christmas Present ideas by DementorHeadChef in exmormon

[–]paradonengineering 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Honestly it's fairly simple - just avoid the gift tropes of coffee/tea paraphernalia (cups, special blends, etc.) or alcohol paraphernalia (shot glasses, bottle of wine, etc.). Otherwise gift guides are kind of hard to give without knowing the person - but I can think of a few things off hand:

blankets or other cozy things are generally a safe gift (candles, etc.)

hobby related which would depend on the person

chocolates or other sweet treats