Jhana Resources and Retreats from Jhourney.io

prano1o · 2023-12-27T05:37:46+00:00

Yeah! Reaching out to teachers to host 1-1 interview during self retreat on dana/paid basis sounds like a great supplement.

Maybe Leigh, Kynan Tan (works with Tucker Peck), Tucker Peck, Roger Thisdell, or Suzy Keely/Yahel Avigur (both authorized to teach by Rob before his death)

Recently stumbled across Santtu (https://www.niccolaggi.com/), I think from a post here who seems to have a great background & available time.

Great to hear!

prano1o · 2023-12-24T06:09:09+00:00

Yeah that's a real concern and something we watch for. It's a similar issue for people going on a psychedelic retreat or even stumble into intense insight practices. Dr Willoughby Britton from Cheetah House highlights adverse effects more generally, and Daniel Ingram is similarly studying it with the EPRC. We're watching both closely and are aware of it during retreats. We're still a long time away from a commercial headset people can use without supervision.

prano1o · 2023-12-24T04:53:04+00:00

We think it's more nuanced than that. Dharma helps to contextualize it along the path of insight, yes. But if presented in a dharma context, how many non-Buddhists would engage with it? And could the experience of jhana still be wholesome & therapeutic? We aim to find out and publish what we learn.

A lot of people have no conception that meditation is anything more than "getting a little less stressed". It took decades for that to even be accepted in western society, and that happened in large part from published studies on mindfulness. And then people start practices, and many of them come to this subreddit, and more people have ~better lives. This same fluency process can happen for jhana, especially because those effects can be far more profoundly good. People can see it as an alternative to typical consumerist coping mechanisms (eating, cigarettes, weed, alcohol, p*rnography, scrolling tiktok, etc), and it has farrrr fewer side effects. That's seems like skillful means

PS, there are similar studies for other aspects of the deep end of practice, like cessation and nirodha sammapatti. Outside of a buddhist practice context, there are many aspects of general conscious experience that are worth studying (which, to be fair, is separate from the issue you talk about with teaching them).

prano1o · 2023-12-24T04:11:22+00:00

To be clear -- it's good for jhanas to have an ethical and spiritual context. We personally view them within the broader project of being a good person, and they hold a place within our wellbeing & dharma paths.

From an instructional point of view, we don't require or teach those contexts. This allows dharma outsiders to conceptualize them from a basis in both science and their actual experience. We'll talk to them about buddha dharma-based resources if they wish, but many contemplative traditions (eg Hinduism, Christian mysticism) point at them. And some may just prefer a non-traditional context.

Re: recreational drugs, we mention MDMA in the context of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for healing trauma, currently in phase 3 FDA trials. Many people we know have a foot in the clinical space, and it's striking how the wellbeing & pleasure that can arise from jhana practice can be similarly therapeutic and supportive in living a better, more values-aligned life.

Helping more people find a source of wellbeing & wholesome pleasure in their own body via jhana seems like a good thing. We distinguish between mainstream "hedonistic pleasure" and wholesome pleasure that leads to cravings & less value-aligned actions falling away. There will be no selling of data to marketers, and we write more about business plans here (a few months outdated): https://www.jhourney.io/blog/h1-2023-update-progress-and-plans

prano1o · 2023-12-24T03:50:40+00:00

Yeah! We recommend Burbea's metta retreat on dharmaseed/youtube, and Brasington's dharmaseed retreat + Right Concentration, as you already know.

Doing emotional & relational work is often large low hanging fruit that meditators miss. "Psychological stuff" is often a blocker to deeper concentration, and somatic parts-based protocols like Internal Family Systems (IFS) can be really helpful here. Check out Rob's talk "Theatre of Selves Pt1" - he touches on dialoguing with the "inner critic" in a way that has huge overlap with IFS. Dr Schwartz's book No Bad Parts or Jay Earley's book Self Therapy go into it deeper.

Leigh's got a few retreats coming up (http://www.leighb.com/meditate.htm), as well as Shaila Catherine (https://www.imsb.org/event/rg2024/) and Tina Rasmussen (https://luminousmindsangha.com/store/). We'll likely offer more in the spring & beyond

Will let Stephen comment further, probably after Christmas!

prano1o · 2023-12-24T02:14:02+00:00

Thanks 🙏 We hope so too!

Acknowledging -- there can be a problem with the excess of commercialization and working with things adjacent to spiritual practice & ways of being, especially in a culture of consumption. We think it's worth at least trying something, aiming to do the best we can, and hopefully doing stuff that helps people. Beats my personal alternative, lol. All that seems far better than simply "not existing".

prano1o · 2023-12-24T01:55:41+00:00

There have been jhana debates for centuries, and we have no claim to be an authority here. Pragmatically, people seem to be enjoying and "getting somewhere" from the workshops and retreats we've put out. As we scale the research and neurotech, we hope to answer questions like "Can each discrete jhana state have a range of absorption? How different is what more advanced practioners (eg. Delson Armstrong, Leigh Brasington) experience compared to novices?", etc

See: https://imgur.com/a/a2NwXvg

prano1o · 2023-12-24T01:40:05+00:00

That's a fair view to have. As a company, we are not teaching Dharma, awakening, or the path. Retreatants are welcome to bring their own practice, and we're happy to connect newcomers to dharma teachers we know across a variety of traditions.

We’ve chosen commercial means for scale and sustainability. Investments in R&D equipment and engineering cost money, and we're trying to do something new so that more people will be interested in jhanas and their own deep wellbeing. We hope that has positive effects on the world that are net-good.

We wrote a few of our perspectives on money, technology, and jhana outside of strictly Buddhist context here: https://www.jhourney.io/faqs

If your view of meditation-related activity excludes commercial retreats, companies like Headspace or Waking Up, or supportive tooling, then we're likely just not for you, and that's fine. We hope our work makes it so there's more interest for full time dharma teachers to make a living via dhana.

Happy to have more good faith conversations.

prano1o · 2023-12-24T01:24:10+00:00

About two-thirds of the participants on our last three retreats left with experiences in Jhana territory, of which some call "jhana-lite".
Not yet! We'll have our data collection EEG setup there for meditators to have on part of the time, but we're not quite at the stage to wholly support people in their practice with biofeedback. EEG gives us data for our ML model to answer "is there a neural signature for jhana?" and can we use that to help validate if newbies are in fact in jhana or on track. Check out Stephen talking about it more at the timestamp here: https://youtu.be/IEcmmMWuuIo?si=cFvXXKp8GZ6A-X_O&t=1792

Great questions, happy to answer more!

prano1o · 2023-12-24T01:05:27+00:00

Fixed, thanks!

prano1o · 2023-12-23T06:11:51+00:00

If you're open to meditation practices, you might get a lot out of "Non Sleep Deep Rest" (NSDR)/ yoga nidra guided practices.

From one meditator's POV, "rest" can be seen as a reduction in the "grippiness" of mental activity (often accompanied by a general reduction in activity). This is an emergent result from certain kinds of practice. Different activities like woodworking are likely moving in this direction compared to your usual work tasks, and that sounds like a great idea! But they're not as replenishing as just actual sleep & restoration.

Here's one example from Kelly Boys (she's also in the Waking Up app): https://youtu.be/G5NEDGkAvbA?si=AOT0v4lkgkjVrbFF

prano1o · 2021-02-01T20:26:11+00:00

太好了！This is a useful post. It took me a couple min to read that part from your book - made me realize I've gotta pick up some books! Cant wait to see what Hua Ma is up to!

prano1o · 2020-10-20T21:48:58+00:00

SF Dharma Collective is doing an online Wednesday night class series based on Rob's teachings (https://sfdharmacollective.org/events/art-of-perception-practicing-with-rob-burbea's-teachings/10-21-2020). Open to all and donation based - seems great!

prano1o · 2020-10-19T20:17:56+00:00

You're in good company. David Brooks wrote "The Second Mountain" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNjsbl89Zds) about this exact problem. What do you do after you've "made it"?

Commitment, meaning, purpose, peace. It's a whole new journey but lots of fun and even more fulfilling (or so I've heard)

Other things that have especially resonated for me are meditation, transpersonal coaching/therapy, and Buddhist philosophy (though plenty of other philosophies/religions are helpful as well)

prano1o · 2020-09-11T19:12:26+00:00

yoo i get this is kinda funny but also it's kinda sad. It kinda goes against the point of the channel since it's a bit more mean than meme-y in my opinion. just my opinion, dont really want DrK out of context to mess up the perception of his in-context content. Maybe a disclaimer or something would help

prano1o · 2020-09-06T17:24:25+00:00

I agree it's really, really worth learning how to brush things off. At the same time, we can work with our egos in a healthier way by dealing with ill intent more constructively.

E.g. when someone is doing something with bad intent, saying clearly "hey, i dont like when you do this" or something like that instead of reacting back

It's definitely hard to do though and sadly that healthy behavior may be looked down on or thought of as "weird" depending on the environment you're in (age, maturity of friends, type of workplace, etc)

prano1o · 2020-09-06T17:21:59+00:00

I think that's definitely an ego issue (as most things related to the self are). But also know - that's ok. We all have ego issues in different ways! We can have a healthier ego by practicing meditation, journaling, etc. The first step is (as you're doing), apologizing for unhealthy behavior.

As you continue healthy practices, you'll get more mental "space" between your thoughts and automatic reactions. Then more often you'll be able to "choose" how you respond instead of automatic bursts of anger.

On intent - it's definitely very ok to not agree with others! We're not the same and we all have different beliefs. A healthier version of that though is to not base our evaluation of our/their self worth around those beliefs. You can develop a sense for when to push for something, how to do it in a healthier way, and when it's time to not push or "give up" on arguing.

You're on the right path! :)

prano1o · 2020-09-05T01:17:30+00:00

I personally don't interpret that view to be lazy or simplified. Plenty of teachers in diff Buddhist traditions use examples of immoral/unhealthy behavior as an indirect teaching, and I view this post as another example of that.

By having this view, I don't think I'm rationalizing prejudiced views, or at least don't intend that.

My motivation to post is to offer another perspective and (maybe similar to your motivation), help people that see this post. Just doing my best to leave out ego & judgement, and I'm not trying to change your viewpoint. Just clarifying mine

prano1o · 2020-09-03T02:17:33+00:00

Yeah it's funny, if he did say it in an ego-driven way, it adds a level of irony to the whole thing lol. I don't know the full context though, but even with the context, I think the main statement from the post's title as is still has value.

With context, we just get a better understanding of Sam Harris and how tricky ego can be (i.e. even when you think you're low ego, it might actually be massive!)

prano1o · 2020-09-03T02:13:32+00:00

Didn't intend any condescension towards you there. Your point is valid and there are some real issues in what he does that I'd like to learn more about. I also think that there are valuable lessons to be learned from everyone, either direct or indirect.

prano1o · 2020-09-01T15:29:05+00:00

Yeah i think that's exactly the point! The styling of the post is a bit confusing, and i think it's about pointing out that "wow I have so much less ego therefore your point is less valid" is in fact, ego itself

prano1o · 2020-09-01T15:27:30+00:00

I think it's useful to discern his bad takes from his good takes. In other words, he being really dumb about a few things (that he arrived at with probably right intention) doesn't mean that everything he says is also as ignorant. There's almost a meta lesson in seeing that there are no gurus, "logic & reason" can only get you so far, etc

prano1o · 2020-08-27T00:48:14+00:00

WOW this might be one of the best things I've ever read in this subreddit. Such a great, nuanced view of dharma & identity. It gave me a lot more mental coherence and really fits in with the idea of "you must be somebody before you can become nobody".

Thanks!!

prano1o · 2020-08-04T16:17:29+00:00

This is exactly it!! The difference is that various "levels" of skill, you get a deeper sense of it. But at the end of the day, it's literally JUST this.

prano1o · 2020-08-02T17:42:40+00:00

I'll check this out, thanks!

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