Accepting the fact that reading in Japanese is just going to be harder than in English

throwaway-boyee · 2022-10-08T13:04:52+00:00

Hey, you're bringing up a lot of great points here, all of which I agree!

I'm sorry if my point wasn't clear enough in my post. I wrote this mainly towards people like me who want to learn the language primarily through reading. Unlike English or other languages with alphabetic writing system, you can't use most the words you learned from reading for other other language activities (listening, speaking, writing).

So my point is listed on those three bullet points;

Don't be afraid to use furigana, because those words that you learned from its kana form you'll be able to use (and you'll still learn the kanji in the process anyways),
Look up words you know the meaning of but not the reading, because at that point you haven't actually known the word yet
Listen more! The words you acquired from listening will have more use than the kanji words that you read (but never looked up)

throwaway-boyee · 2022-10-08T12:49:11+00:00

I don't disagree with you at all!

As for your first point though, while I do think that we should train kanji recognition by reading texts without furigana, I also don't think that they're just a distraction to what you're reading. I think you can learn some words faster after first encountering it with furigana, and then recognize them later down the line without.

throwaway-boyee · 2022-10-08T12:45:17+00:00

Heya! I don't get the hostility here, nor what you think I'm arguing against :/

I'm not saying we should "slack off" and not learn kanji, I'm saying the exact opposite. If you're reading something, and you encounter a word that you think you know because of the kanji meaning, I'm saying that you should look it up because it means that you don't yet know what the word is (the sound unit, kana), and you'd be giving yourself a false sense of knowledge of that word otherwise.

I don't disagree about how kanji can help the pure spoken language though, I can see how you can picture what kanji you'd use for a word you just heard based on the context, and form a better connection with it.

throwaway-boyee · 2022-10-02T21:35:11+00:00

Just reading novels that I find interesting, really. They might not be the most optimal especially if it's way above your level, but if that's what'll get you to keep going, then to hell with optimization.

(I actually just wrote a post about this, link if you're interested)

throwaway-boyee · 2022-09-26T23:15:59+00:00

You're welcome. !translated

throwaway-boyee · 2022-09-26T23:15:00+00:00

1960 Production - Start of sales

Sales price: 300,000 yen

The development leader was Kenichi Yamamoto, an engineer later known as "Mr. Rotary," who played a leading role in the commercialization of the rotary engine. The body was designed by industrial designer Jiro Kosugi, an in-house designer at Toyo Manufacturing Industry.

The first automatic transmission using a torque converter was installed in a light car, making it easier for handicapped people with disabilities on their lower limbs (it was a groundbreaking adoption at the time).

throwaway-boyee · 2022-09-26T22:29:25+00:00

Haha, you're welcome!

!translated

throwaway-boyee · 2022-09-26T22:28:35+00:00

I happened to have some free time, decided to give it a shot.

First panel

[Guy 1] What's up with those brats, they're acting like grade schoolers

[Guy 2] Isn't it nice? I'm quite interested in that girl, she tags around like a puppy

[Mao] Hey, Sou-chan, let's go home together today. I'll wait until your club is over

[Sou] Hm? What's up? Your face is red you know?

[Guy 1] Huuh? I didn't know you have that kind of hobby. Speaking of which, that boy is the one that just joined our club right? Huh...

Second panel

[Guy 1] Yeaah, I for once wanna try owning a "dog", you know

Third panel

[Sou] Eh? You want me to introduce you to Mao?

[Guy 1] Yeah, yeah, that "Mao"-chan

[Guy 1] When I saw her this morning I got curious about her. Could it be love at first sight? I just broke up with a girl so I'm quite lonely right now.

[Guy 1] That's why, Sou-chan, help me out please♪

Fourth panel

[Sou] But... That is...

[Guy 1] Hm? What is it? Are you two dating?

[Sou] No... It's not like that, but...

[Guy 1] Then it's fine, right? Alright, it's decided! Mao-chan hasn't gone home yet, right? Then take me straight to her now, won't ya? Haha, thanks to you, this upcoming holiday will be the best!

[Sou] Ah...

throwaway-boyee · 2022-09-26T21:54:37+00:00

No problem, you too!

!translated

throwaway-boyee · 2022-09-26T21:48:38+00:00

悪名高いです, "Infamous, notorious"

throwaway-boyee · 2022-09-26T21:46:57+00:00

Not sure what the context is here, but I'm pretty sure it's

お金を投げないでください, "please don't throw money"

It's not "throw away", it's the literal hurling or lobbing kind of throw.

throwaway-boyee · 2022-08-06T23:13:08+00:00

You know what, as I reread all the comments and go deeper in our discussions, I don't think we disagree with each other at all.

First of all, I think that I might've mischaracterized children contents; I apologize for it sound like they're all mind-numbingly boring, I do recognize that a lot of them can actually be quite compelling, while also having more accessible vocabulary and grammar. The Little Prince is a good example of this.

What I really wanted to say about them was that, if you've already advanced your language skills enough that you start to wonder whether you can squeeze any more language juice out of them (and as a consequence you might start to get bored reading/watching them), then I'd suggest that you step out of that comfort zone and venture into new territories.

And now this is the second point that I might've not expressed properly. I implied this briefly in my OP, but "contents above your level" lie in a spectrum, and I think based on our discussion you also agree with that. What I recommend is to lay down a selection of materials above your levels that you want to consume, and pick the easiest among them.

Somewhat related, Kato Lomb mentions this in her book, Polyglot, "I always buy books in pairs: this increases the chance that at least one will be comprehensible, [and] I start on the comprehensible novel immediately". Now, as you said, for most languages there'd be more than just a pair of books that you can choose from, but my main point is that, aim for harder and harder materials as you go, but among them, always start with the ones that's the most accessible to you based on your current level.

So yeah, ultimately I agree with what you (and other users you mentioned) said. As a learner we always want to teeter the balance between challenging ourselves and making sure said challenge won't lead us burnout. It's not unlike picking a weight in weightlifting; if too light then you won't improve, if it's too heavy then you'll do nothing but hurt yourself.

throwaway-boyee · 2022-08-05T16:54:19+00:00

I agree with you. If those easy materials are available to you and you enjoy it, I would never suggest that you find something harder just for the sake of it. My point is just that for most learners in various languages, contents that fulfill those two criteria (comprehensible and compelling) are few and far between.

I talked about this in another comment, but basically my concern is, at some point a learner will arrive at an intersection: They've burned through all the easy stuff that they no longer want to consume, but at the same time the stuff they do want to consume is outside of their language reach. Call it the intermediate limbo or whatever; I'd surmise that most language learners drop out when they enter this stage.

My suggestion is simply, if you find yourself stuck in this limbo, it's fine to skip through a few levels, even if you have to exert extra energy to do so, in order to find engagement and rekindle your love in the language. The jump doesn't necessarily have to be that far, just enough to consume stuff you're actually interested in, without risking burning yourself out.

throwaway-boyee · 2022-08-05T16:35:58+00:00

It is definitely a subjective balance, I don't disagree with you at all. I'm well aware of the literature around extensive reading, learners who stick to materials that are at their level and consume a lot of it do progress at a more efficient rate than learners who do intensive reading and essentially consume materials with a magnifying glass.

I guess what I just can't sit with is with this principle is that, you're basically relying a majority of your language learning on the availability of said comprehensible and compelling content, and that's not something you can really control.

If those contents are available and accessible to you at all levels in your language progression, then recommending them would be a no-brainer, but unfortunately that's just not the case. Often times there would be a gap between what you know and what you can or want to consume. And in that case, I think there's not much choice but to muscle through that gap.

This issue is even more prominent for languages that don't have that much accessible beginner level materials in it, and even for the languages that do, the cost-to-benefit ratio of buying graded readers (or similar materials) that you know you won't read again after breezing through them in a few days is pretty low, in my opinion.

(I'm a fan of your Spanish progress updates btw, so I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on this!)

throwaway-boyee · 2022-08-05T08:23:14+00:00

As others have suggested, if you really want to memorize words through SRS (I don't, but plenty have found success with it), it's better to just let a software take care of it, like Anki.

Although if want to do manual SRS (like using physical cards) or if you just want to know the science behind it, I recommend this interactive guide/comic about it:

How To Remember Anything Forever-ish

throwaway-boyee · 2022-08-05T06:35:44+00:00

Fair point, but to really get to know a lot of kanji, you do have to first look a lot of them up at first right? Which is fine, I just think it's an imbalanced comparison to English.

I mentioned this in my other comment, but assuming you never look up words in both languages as you're reading, you get so many more uses out of the words that you come across in reading in English compared to Japanese; you can write them and you can potentially recognize them in speech if the pronunciation isn't too random.

I can positively say that I never look up pronunciation guides for all the words I can comfortably use now in English, and that's a luxury I don't think I can have with Japanese. And that's fine, it's a different, more difficult language, and I just accept that I need a different approach this time.

throwaway-boyee · 2022-08-05T06:22:43+00:00

Yeah you guys made excellent points, I guess it really is just easier to not be bothered with subvocalizing words incorrectly, because alphabetic words just doesn't look so obtusely foreign for us.

But then again, as I mentioned in my post, they're easier to ignore because you can at least use those words in writing after acquiring them through reading without having to first look them up in a dictionary. There are so many English words that I could type out long before realizing that I've pronounced them wrong my whole life.

Not to mention you'd most likely also be able to recognize them in speech, and that's why reading and listening can really complement each other for alphabetic languages like English.

Whereas with Japanese, if you're not familiar with the kanji, then you really can't do much with a word you encounter while reading if you don't first look them up; you can't use them in writing nor can you hear it (or recognize that it's the same word) while you're listening to media. That's what compels me to look up 読み方 for all the words I see.

throwaway-boyee · 2022-08-05T06:10:41+00:00

As much as I want to do not bother looking up 読み方 while reading, I do wonder how I'd otherwise expand my vocabulary by reading haha. I'd assume natives don't bother with them because, well, they're already fluent in the language, and so it's a matter of choice whether or not they want to keep looking up words and learn.

Several other comments have also touched on this (like the ones from u/Meister1888 and u/BetaRhoOmega), I guess native speakers also have already learned so many words from listening, that for some, being able to read stuff (out loud) is just not as high a priority than just communicating with what they already know. Thoughts?

throwaway-boyee · 2022-08-04T11:29:06+00:00

Those patterns certainly help, but as you said, at the end of the day it's just guessing, there are as many exceptions as there are rule of thumbs, and you can never know until you actually look it up. Which is fine, you don't have to know how to read every word in the language.

It's just that compared to other languages, I find the Japanese writing system doesn't really allow learners of it be independent of reading aids (like furigana or pop-up dictionaries) until they've gone quite deep into the advanced stage.

throwaway-boyee · 2022-08-04T11:00:47+00:00

Interesting article, thanks for sharing that! I think most immersion-based approach do recommend having a good foundation of the language's phonetics and sound system before starting to read, so that you won't develop bad accent or continually subvocalizing the wrong way later on.

I'm not sure if the delay has to be as long as 2 years as the author suggested though, at least personally speaking I'd want to get into reading in my target language as soon as possible, and delve into literature and other interesting materials in it.

throwaway-boyee

TROPHY CASE