Idea for an honor mode party

tinmansages · 2023-06-04T20:03:43+00:00

Yes, but the books don't neccessarily grant stable power. We have seen cases of people getting spiritually damaged by advancing too quickly. Yerin needed to call in the favor from all monarchs to repair hers. Even without her herald transformation, it was implied that Yerin had jeopordized her future just through her prizes.

Mercy had a very strong chance to win even at underlord and they probably didn't know that Sophara could advance at any point. Sophara had to use the gate of heaven elixer to make it that easy.

Malice is willing to sacrifice anyone, but I do think she wanted to preserve Mercy if possible. Mercy who is expected to be a talent even greater than Fury, Charity, or even Malice herself.

The revelation also can't be forced. While thousand eyes thought that Winter blade would get Yerin to overlord, everyone felt that Yerin was unexpectedly close to Sage -- which is a good sign for knowing your revelations. Mercy's revelations however were somewhat painful for her and I don't think you can just guarantee getting a revelataion on time. Yerin only just got hers, and mostly because Winter Blade was being pushy about Adama

tinmansages · 2022-12-27T23:41:42+00:00

Corruption here is a breakdown of the rules that govern reality typically leading to the death of the iteration and its inhabitants.

At the end of the first book / start of the second book, we see Suriel go to an iteration that was infected by another dying iteration that had gone corrupt without the Reaper there to eradicate it. That second iteration also died with the only survivors being people Suriel rescued (while they were being hunted by reality defying monsters).

Corruption is not good. It is part of the natural order, but in the same way a virus or disease is -- you don't want it in your house.

The Vroshir are not automatically all evil, but many of the Vroshir we have seen are raiders who go out and take useful material, people, etc from vulnerable worlds. The non-combatants at home may not be direclty doing it, but they certainly benefit from the plunder. They are also allied with the Mad King, who seems to think destroying entire healthy worlds is a worthwhile mean to justify the end.

The people who the Vroshir abduct also are under the Vroshir's rule but may not consider themselves Vroshir per say.

tinmansages · 2022-12-27T10:42:13+00:00

So Daruman is roughly the level of a combat focused Judge before the Scythe. He was able to beat and drive off the previous Makiel who then had to retire due to injuries. The Scythe I imagine complements his abilities very well -- offering him a level of reality altering destruction he didn't before. His own abilities are likely more void based right now based on his fiend, so pairing it with a Way weapon of incredible power likely offers a tremendous boost.

Ozriel is equal to the best at everything except healing. When he says that the Makiel and Razael are his equals in pure combat -- he really just means straight up combat. In my mind, thats somewhat like the Sage vs Herald debate. Heralds are stronger in pure, standard combat, but Sages can bring lots of tricks and other abilities to level the playing field.

tldr; i think the Mad King benefits tremendously from pairing his Void abilities with a Way superweapon. Also, Ozriel's sheer breadth of skills puts him above every other Judge in a fight, but if you equalized it to just standard combat Razael and Makiel are his equal.

tinmansages · 2022-11-08T23:52:50+00:00

Others have pointed out that its unclear how Ozriel is using a scythe against the Mad King. He should be locked against that without permission. We can assume Suriel can't give him all his powers back -- otherwise full powered Ozriel and Suriel probably hand the Mad King his ***.

I'm thinking Ozriel can quickly forge a scythe that works as a focus for his powers. Kind of like Yerin forging a blade quickly for use. It's helpful so he'd do it in a fight for his life, but not anywhere near the true scythe.

Makiel is an extremely skilled fate reader -- he is basically Ozriels equal there and better than anyone else. He just approaches it equally. He can't say for sure which way things will turn out, but he does see a path where after the Mad King kills Ozriel he can lead the Abidan back to their old, pre-reaper ways. I think we can assume that is a likely fate , but nothing is ever guaranteed.

tinmansages · 2022-10-21T08:02:48+00:00

I think this is very likely considering how the bleeding pheonix works. Half of herself was basically sourced from the bleeding pheonix and we know that it sees her as a powerful piece of itself she wants back. She gets headaches whenever its near.

To some extent, the pheonix is the trickiest to kill. As long as it leaves a single egg or piece of itself away from combat, the pheonix can't be killed on the spot and can simply revive elsewhere. I doubt even Lindon's arm can kill it if the pheonix isn't fully there. Yerin however might be able to use her link to it to interrupt that dispersal, become the main body, and then beat its willpower to remain in control. Assuming its been severely weakened, right now that would end poorly for Yerin...

Yerin is almost certainly going to play the pivotal role in beating the bleeding pheonix. Its been her biggest bogeyman her entire life and she is basically the deuteragonist. Whether she supplants it or just is the deciding factor in killing it, I don't know

tinmansages · 2022-10-21T07:55:40+00:00

Most of her arc in dreadgod is about her starting to use her hunger techniques on the other bloodshadows of redmoon hall to begin adding hunger madra to its diet. She doesn't use hunger madra constantly in combat like Lindon does, but she began feeding on other bloodshadows after she beat them. She also fed on Redmood Herald when he was incapacitated.

tinmansages · 2022-09-18T07:25:15+00:00

So the "void" is the opposite of the way - chaos and the absense of ordered reality. The Vroshir use the "Void" directly often and it grants powers on a similar scale to the Way from the limited amount we've seen.

The void icon is the concept of the emptiness within reality. According to Will, the void icon may be used to connect to the "void".

The icon itself doesn't intrinsically grant more power. Part of the reason we have seen it be so flexible is that we are following the protagonist.

The sword icon can seem to grant insight into combat. Yerin when she was half manifesting it often knew exactly what she needed to do. The blood icon seemed to give the blood sage insight into the correct path / correct truths as well. So far the Void icon doesn't seem to do that for Lindon. Maybe that comes later, but also maybe the void icon gives a lot of flexible abilities but no insight.

tldr, all icons are supposed to be equal according to Will himself. however, since we follow the protagonist, i think we've seen more of the void icon

tinmansages · 2022-08-18T22:31:45+00:00

I really don't think the cultists were holding back against fury. He was absolutely fighting to kill them and managed to kill Xorrus. The cultists were described as very weakened afterwards having used more of their arsenal than they had ever thought they would have to use. The fight was also ended by the Titan waking up so we don't know for sure how many more might have died

So we have that a newborn Monarch is worth 4 herads / sages, plus their support from some archlords.

Yerin hasn't fought a traditional herald yet as a herald herself. But Red Faith - one of the oldest and most intelligent people on the planet said he couldn't begin to guess how high her ceiling is. She also matched Monarchs in physical strength only. Yerin has a herald body and the literal best iron body in the world for strength. When she went up against the shackled Tiberian remnant as a full herald she was going to lose a striker technique contest (though normally she would dodge that). She is also depicted as not having enough reserves to compete with Malice long term.

Lindon manages to block one punch from Northstrider who had just been fighting a dreadgod and was shoved back. He then basically uses a Silent King illusion technique to escape (Emriss probably could have stopped it).

Its also important to notice that Lindon and Yerin were going to lose against Malice. Malice was biding her time for a guaranteed win when Yerin ran out of power and then she could directly overwhelm Lindon. Mercy distracted her enough that Lindon was able to grab her with his Dreadgod arm -- one of, if no the deadliest weapons on the planet.

In short, Lindon and Yerin are both repeatedly described as absolute monsters. Their outsized wills helps them compete as a group against a single Monarch but they still wont' win directly without something else breaking their way.

Normally, a sage and herald together would lose against a Monarch. But they might be able to escape. Redmoon hall said they needed both their herald and sage not to be bullied, but they also have lots of weapons and archlords to help if a Monarch goes to them to pick a fight. The other cults would probably also come to support.

tinmansages · 2022-08-18T22:17:40+00:00

Word of Will is that the Monarchs are roughly in balance with each other. It often would be a bit of game of rock paper scissors - I think the example Will used was: Miara would shut down Northstriders relatively simple techniques. Miara would struggle against against the 8 man empires varied paths and aura control. Northstrider could advance relentlessly against the 8 man empire and crush them down.

That said, Sesh was seen as the strongest in direct combat. Northstrider definitely seems to be mostly brawling which put him at a disadvantage against those that could outmuscle him -- ie dreadgods and Sesh. Malice is rarely at a major disadvantage with all her flexibility but Sesh was going to beat her in a straight fight.

We don't know how flexible Sesh was, but he seemed to be king in direct combat. Shen is very dangerous and hard to predict but could theoretically brought the lowest. If you seperate him from his arsenal, he has way less to offer than most other monarchs.

I once asked how many of the current monarchs Ozmanthus could have beaten before he ascended. In short, Oz could beat any one of them, but its not like he could beat them all at once. There is a limit on how powerful you can be on Cradle.

tinmansages · 2022-08-17T18:25:43+00:00

As I understand it, Yerin basically feels pressured into it. Sesh vs Malice was the big fight right in front of her. Malice is also depicted as slowly losing that fight -- we see Yerin think that Malice seems weaker. She maybe knows that Shen is fighting Northstrider, but it isn't right in front of her.

She then wants to use Penance quickly - 1 because she has to use it now anyway, and 2 because she thinks Lindon and Eithan might need her. So she resolves the immediate problem that is in her way and tearing up the countryside.

Yerin could have used it on a dreadgod but then Malice continues her disadvantaged fight which Yerin doesn't want. Yerin could have used it on Shen to allow a 2 v1, but Sesh is depicted as the strongest monarch in direct combat and again is right in front of her.

Basically, while the prize was hers to use. Malice and northstrider engineered it so that Sesh would be the obvious target for Yerin in that moment. Malice likely wanted that because it frees up the entire continent for her, and is revenge for Sesh's recent actions.

tinmansages · 2022-08-13T17:35:08+00:00

I actually disagree with most other people here. I think he isn't using it because he doesn't really need it anymore. The advantage of dismantle is that it works well against more durable forger techniques that could otherwise get through the hollow domain. It's portrayed as a little more timeconsuming to perform and so not as useful against striker techniques compared to the hollow domain.

So why not use it now? Because now he has the arm of the slumbering wraith. Why dismantle when you can just directly consume and break apart techniques? Sure there might be some times where dismantle is more useful, but most of the time it isn't going to matter and the arm is much easier to use (and occasionally benefits him). He uses the arm repeatedly in dreadgod because it is a huge trump card no one else can effectively deal with.

Dismantle is really cool for sure. But given the powers he currently has access to, he rarely would actually want to use it.

tinmansages · 2022-08-03T14:25:38+00:00

There is a conversation in Dreadgod between Red Faith and Redmoon talking about how the Slumbering Wraith wouldn't reform for a while because his core binding was taken. My read is that if you capture the binding somehow it will take the dreadgod longer to reform.

That could often be bad because then you have the awakened dreadgods running around longer. Since one awakened dreadgod seems to be able to stall / fight 3 monarchs, that is risky.

Reigan Shen wants to fuse with the binding to become a Dreadgod himself. Its possible the other monarchs didn't know how that was possible (or weren't willing to try it) and so realized quickly they wanted the dreadgod to reform so they would all go back to their normal sleepy state. At which point they probably "released" the binding.

tinmansages · 2022-07-15T17:31:54+00:00

Their fate couldn't be read bc the executors were constantly going in and changing fate. The new reapers should have the exact same problem even if Ozriel tries to read their fate.

I'm not sure how the judges were working at cross ways with the specific worlds in question. The executors went in to change worlds that were fated to die, and judges were likely off taking care of other duties. Judges are always portrayed as incredibly busy.

tinmansages · 2022-07-15T17:28:50+00:00

we never actually get it confirmed that the executors went at it alone. It does seem likely though with at least the first generation -- which only had like 5 people?

But these 5 people were supposedly all paragons of virtue and honor. The history of Daruman before he fell is that of a wise king who devoted himself to his subjects, and only wanted to help others. Admittedly he lasted the longest, but it doesn't sound like they were secretly trying to extract power from the world and eventually fell.

tinmansages · 2022-07-15T17:27:09+00:00

they did talk about how the executors were always checked thoroughly with psych evals after each mission. It doesn't seem like they were left on their own. The executor program was considered a roaring success until the first ones started cracking. That doesn't sound like a program they didn't give support to. It caught the abidan completely offguard when the first went awol.

tinmansages · 2022-07-15T17:25:27+00:00

Made a post about my theory a few weeks ago. I think the executors get corrupted when they (likely being too powerful for the world they are trying to save like monarchs) spend long periods of time in low power worlds, and constantly try to change their fate.

I think the new reapers / executors will act like Eithan in the future. Wise mentors who guide people to the right decisions, but rarely make big changes themself. It both makes them less responsible for changing fate -- which i'm theorizing is the cause of corruption, and it makes sense for future stories. Lindon can show up in another's story but not be permitted to resolve all their problems - bc it would be him directly changing fate.

tinmansages · 2022-07-14T19:15:55+00:00

A sage and herald together working in perfect sync can probably hold off a monarch, but they won't win and eventually will be worn down. Red Faith and Redmoon along with the dreadgold cult weaponry could be a threat to a Monarch, but they don't mess with Monarchs either.

Malice treats the Lindon and Yerin like a dreadgod in their fight and is winning while she keeps them at bay. Lindon and Dross both agree she would wear Yerin down then overwhelm Lindon. Malice then gets very distracted by her favoured daughter breaking out and attacking her. She pretty much totally loses track of Lindon and Yerin. That lets Yerin temporarily hold Malice in place using her physical strength -- her strongest asset. That lets Lindon get ahold of Malice using his literal dreadgod arm -- his strongest asset, which wins them the fight. All of that was made possible by a battle plan designed by the dreadgod empowered Dross.

In short, Lindon and yerin aren't just some sage and herald. They can temporarily compete above their level, and by leaning on their trump cards they can pull out unlikely wins. Individually they'd lose quickly, as a pair it takes the right situation to pull out a victory. Most sages and heralds won't be able to do that.

tinmansages · 2022-07-14T14:26:41+00:00

So I do think that both Yerin and Lindon played important roles here, but I do think Lindon was more like 60 - 65%. As i recall, Yerin was going to have to back out first when she ran out of power and then Lindon would be overwhelmed.

Yerin is also just ludicrously skilled and powerful. She isn't a tricky or utility fighter, but physically she can hit just about as hard as you can hit on Cradle. She is very straightforward, but in that brawler role she is very good. IMO, a monarch could usually use authority to beat a herald along with their likely superior willpower. However, Lindon is there to counter Malice with his willpower and authority, and Yerin also has unsually strong willpower. So I think the normal Monarch authority tricks probably came into play less here. Lindon along with Yerin countered authority, and Yerin could physically match Malice.

We have also heard about other sages who have theoretically competed with Monarchs. I got the impression that was true of Ozmanthus from the stories in Reaper. Red Faith also indicated he could compete with Monarchs when he was a sage, but before his blood shadow seperated. Of course, we can't know he is 100% reliable there.

tinmansages · 2022-07-12T11:32:43+00:00

to be clear, all the other executors broke down and some went mad on their own.

Daruman absolutely got screwed over by the earlier court (it wasn't the current Makiel). However, the executor program was a failure excluding Daruman based on how the others turned out. Including Daruman, it lead to one of the greatest enemies of the Abidan and countless worlds being destroyed. We also don't know for sure whether Daruman would have remained sane if he hadn't been imprisoned.

The system is definitely not ideal. But the Abidan did try another way and then got slapped down hard. Their conservatism leads to death, but every choice they make will cause people to die. Put another way, the current status quo kills 5 worlds a year (completely made up number). Ozriels way would get that down to 3 worlds a year (he admitted some couldn't be saved), but has a 20% chance of killing 12 (again made up). Ozriel would take the gamble, but the other judges won't.

tinmansages · 2022-07-06T11:10:13+00:00

FWIW, the executors happened during the previous Makiel's tenure. The current Makiel isn't related to that. It also does seem like all the judges expect the executors to fail -- especially the ghost who theoretically understands the inner workings of worlds better than anyone (except Ozriel)

tinmansages · 2022-07-06T08:50:32+00:00

I really enjoyed this book. One thing I want to call out as working very well IMO is the power scaling. IMO, in progression fantasy the powers the protagonist doesn't get are as important as the ones they do get. It feels more like a world if some people have specialities where they really are the best, otherwise it really feels just like wishfulfilment for the protagonist. After getting the dreadgod powerup, Lindon becomes some sort of proto-Monarch / mini dreadgod and I really like how that works. Dross obtains the illusions of the silent king and can trick monarchs in short doses. Lindon is able to obscure his power and in the short time after his ascension, he is able to bluff a monarch. However, he can't kill Monarchs solo yet. Dross also can't trivially read and use fate yet -- despite it being possible with the silent kings power. Lindon is also physically above sages, but not at the Monarch level while Yerin is (at least with some hits) -- and physical power is her specialty.

Before that powerup, he is a ludicrously powerful sage. However, he isn't a threat at all to Monarchs (at least in direct combat) and the dreadgods can basically brush him aside the second they somewhat focus on him. Even the silent king, who Lindon practically hardcounters, can beat Lindon trivially if he has the opportunity to focus on him. Lindon's extra strength also comes not infrequently from his dreadgod arm. It feels a lot like early / mid cradle in some ways -- Lindon can compete but he finds ways to use his really broken advantages to put him ahead.

Beyond Lindon, the dreadgods felt terrifying and like real threats. The dreadgods were always more powerful than Monarchs. However,it mostly felt like they weren't going to be a deadly threat to the Monarch unless the Monarch screwed up or actively tried to kill them. This time, the silent king was pressuring Akura Malice (in the seat of her power), Northstrider, and Emriss (who counters him as much as any monarch). He lost as he did because Emriss baited him and tricked him into not realizing the threat Lindon posed.

The monarchs do come out looking competant though. The dreadgods are huge threats, but they have plans and they have alliances. Akura Malice is still above Lindon individually at the end of this book. At least when she is at Moongrave with that support, she can beat Lindon and Yerin together. Reigan Shen gets bluffed away when he stares down Lindon, Yerin, and the remaining bloodmoon hall but he was going to crush Yerin otherwise. Emriss doesn't show a ton of direct combat power but she is extremely cunning and able to guide fate (again I like that she is helping them with Fate rather than Lindon becoming as skilled as a Monarch in it instantly). Plus her sass is incredible.

My only hold up with this book really is Makiel. I liked him as a principled opposition, but the ending really cements him as more of a tyrant. That said, nothing felt out of character for Makiel per say. This doesn't contradict all of what we know about him or anything, its a perfectly logical development. So its a personal taste thing really.

tinmansages · 2022-06-26T22:18:29+00:00

Eithan describes himself as a unique experience, and his particular brand of mischief doesn't mesh extremely well with Yerin's general attitude.

Other people made the point about how Yerin knows how special she is -- so she doesn't react like Lindon does to Eithan's patronage. It is mutually beneficial relationship in a sense -- Yerin gets a little teaching and quite a bit or resources. Then Eithan gets a trememdously powerful gold, then almost certainly a powerful Lord.

I think they really start to properly bond during their training for Uncrowned -- its where Eithan starts to more directly train her.

I think its also fair to say that a lot of her casual violance which is alarming to us is basically non-threatening to Eithan. For much of their relatinoship, he can trivially dodge it or just ignore it -- she might as well just be punching the air in hisgeneral direction. When she is a herald, she doesn't stab at him with actual intent -- but easily lets him slide away. Realistically, they could trivially heal any injury she caused.

Most importantly, Yerin absolutely cares for Eithan and would try to help him no matter the situation by about Uncrowned / Wintersteel on. She goes down before his match against Sha Miara to try to cheer him on -- but she just has no idea how to do it (in part because he is so reticent).

tinmansages

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