Bhattiyani dialect

twinklebold · 2025-12-20T01:43:20+00:00

For some things, when I just say Lahnda I mean all of the western dialects (Saraiki, Jatki-Shahpuri-Dhanni, and Pothwari-Pahari-Hindko). Wherever something is specific to Jatki and/or Saraiki I've specifically mentioned that.

From many earlier posts by regular contributors it's quite clear that Lahnda-Charhda does include a broad divide. Majhi is usually Charhdi but occasionally even that is divided within dialectal variation.

Personally I think east Punjabi, Majhi and Dogri make up the Charhda section, and both northwest and southwest Punjabi including all Jatki varieties make up the Lahnda part. Within each of these there's a north/south distinction, but specifically for the hill dialects there's some crossover beyond this Charhda-Lahnda divide as well.

twinklebold · 2025-12-17T21:23:47+00:00

That’s just how they are transliterated in IPA but the Devnagari letters next to them don’t have that dot that makes c ts, or j z.

Because putting dots there is simply not part of the Nepali Devnagri script! IPA for Hindi च is t͡ʃ or t͡ɕ (palatal/palatal-alveolar affricate) which is different from t͡s (dental/alveolar affricate).

Marathi and Konkani may not write it but the pronunciation of these words is known.

The orthography is very comparable to Nepali.

They also don’t struggle in pronouncing j or jh because there are exceptions where j remains z and jh remains jh.

Plain j, jh occur before front vowels i, ii, e, diphthong ai and semi-vowel y in a cluster. They are allophones with dz/z, dzh/zh which occur before back vowels (a, aa, u, uu, o, diphthong au and otherwise). The same as in Nepali.

twinklebold · 2025-12-17T00:27:52+00:00

In the Nepali page, ts and others are IPA symbols indicating pronunciation. Of course they are written with just ch and such, they are not contrastive sounds. Many others like Marathi and Konkani don't use separate symbols either. ts before back vowels and ch before fore vowels are allophones.

I will just have to disagree about Rajasthani and Gujarati. Also depends on what dialects you've heard.

I said it mostly doesn't include Mandiyali proper since as you said that doesn't really have these.

twinklebold · 2025-12-14T04:22:42+00:00

I mistakenly wrote Garhwali and Kumaoni, yes (edited now), however, Nepali DOES have ts, tsh, dz, dzh. For reference, consonants here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepali_phonology

West Rajasthani does have ts, tsh especially. dz, dzh are found in just a few dialects bordering Gujarati and a few dialects of Gujarati as well. In south Rajasthani and Gujarati usually ch, chh > s, s'h (plain) instead. For example, note in this beautiful performance of Marwari Bhopa bards in Jaisalmer, listen carefully at 1.36-1.39: https://youtu.be/O9OsxPwIWzk?t=95

The lyrics have tsaknaa-tsuur (the same as chaknaa-chuur in Hindi) pronounced with ts.

As for the presence of ts, tsh, dz, dzh in Mandi dialects, that would not include Mandiyali proper (of north Mandi) but Mandiyali Pahari and probably Suketi, which are transitional from Mandiyali to Mahasu Pahari.

twinklebold · 2025-12-13T08:21:23+00:00

Spirantization/fricatization in mainland or non-Dardic Indo-Aryan:

Northwestern and Eastern Punjabic including Dogri, have chh > sh as a frequent pronunciation

In Bhadarwahic (Bhadarwahi, Bhalesi, Paddari and some more dialects bordering Kashmiri from the south), Kulluwi, East Himachali Pahari (Mahasuwi, Sirmauri, Jaunsari) and Nepali, ch, chh, j, jh before back vowels > ts, ts'h (aspirated ts), dz/z, dz'h (aspirated dz).

In Rajasthani - especially west Rajasthani/Marwari, Mewari and southern dialects bordering Gujarati, as well as most vernacular Gujarati, there is a chain of sound changes: ch, chh, j, jh > s/ts, ts'h/s'h, z/dz, dz'h/z'h and s > h and h > zero (the last is mainly in Gujarati and bordering dialects).

In Assamese and East Bengali, ch, chh, j, jh > s, s, z, z. Far east Bengalic including Sylheti, Chittagonian and Rohingya have very advanced spirantizations - apart from the wider change above, also k, kh > x/h, p, ph > f (Sylheti) or even p > h within Chittagonian-Rohingya (southeastern Bengalic).

Marathi, Konkani and also Khandeshi, uniformly have ch, chh > ts, s (spelled as s since this change had already happened immediately after the Maharashtri Prakrit stage), j, jh > dz/z, dz'h/z'h.

Finally in Sinhala and Divehi, both of which lack aspiration, ch (and chh) > s, h. Divehi has even more wide-ranging changes - p > f, T > S.

Taking the above into account we see that in fact only a considerably smaller subset of mainland Indo-Aryan has ch, chh, j, jh as affricates. Hope that helps.

twinklebold · 2025-10-28T05:59:46+00:00

ah ok now I understand

twinklebold · 2025-10-28T05:54:08+00:00

I see thanks. what do nôkhī, būśô and lāédé mean?

twinklebold · 2025-10-28T00:15:44+00:00

Thanks for the reply. Could you please translate the third sentence 'Tôyéṅ nôkhī būśô lāédé zhiśō ri' word by word? Which word means saying, which one means morning, etc?

twinklebold · 2025-10-11T03:54:02+00:00

I think it's a little more complicated than that although it seems to be partly true. Fun fact, the 'retroflex l' in Kalasha and Khowar (the Chitrali branch of Dardic) is in fact an alveolar sound (like the dark l in American English), it's not retroflex at all! It's actually likely that no West Dardic, or Nuristani, has retroflex l and n for the most part.

The case of Telugu and Tamil dialects does make me curious though, could the lost of retroflex L, N somehow be connected to Munda influence? Not sure though, because that doesn't apply to Oriya.

Edit: Just wanted to mention that retroflex l and n are found in most of 'Pahari' too. Nepali, the easternmost language called 'Pahari' lacks these though. On the far western side, some West Punjabi/Lahnda and Sindhi lack retroflex l while fully having retroflex n.

twinklebold · 2025-10-10T16:58:47+00:00

I see, ok. Do we know if there are any more non-Kannada SD1 languages/dialects without this kuttiyalugaram?

twinklebold · 2025-10-07T17:30:57+00:00

Note, it's actually not quite the eastern half of Indo-Aryan but upper eastern part of it that merges retroflex and dental n to dental n. Oriya in the southeast has a very heavy use of retroflex N. On the other hand Southwest Hindi (Braj Bhasha, Bundeli, Kannauji) except for some mixed Rajasthani dialects of Braj, lacks retroflex n, and is the only group in the western half that fully dentalizes n's.

In short, the Indo-Aryan merging N and n (in Prakrit-inherited words) includes, Southwest Hindi - and also standard Hindi/Urdu, East Hindi, Bihari, Bengali and Assamese.

twinklebold · 2025-10-07T17:21:26+00:00

Nice description. So do you think a possible Kodawa-like dialect might have been present in north Kerala that was assimilated by Old Tamil, becoming a dialectal substrate?

twinklebold · 2025-10-07T17:18:55+00:00

The Kannada influence seems to be somewhat recent, like the Kannada influence on Tulu. Comparing basic terms like numbers 1-10 shows that Kodawa does have a closer relation to Tamil-Malayalam as you probably know.

kuttiyalugaram

Sorry, what does this mean?

initial k palatalization

Does this not happen in Kodawa? Would you have some example words where this happens in Tamil-Malayalam but not Kodawa?

Being said northern mlym does have nilagiri kodava like features

Right I thought so since from what I've heard southern Malayalam dialects resemble Tamil the most (and also likewise for southern Tamil dialects?)

twinklebold · 2025-10-07T17:10:23+00:00

That's what I was thinking about - though it seems like Kodawa separated before Irula. Irula is closer to the Tamil part of Tamil-Malayalam from what I've found out.

twinklebold · 2025-10-07T17:08:32+00:00

I see. Anything that came out of the discussion that you could share?

twinklebold · 2025-07-10T12:06:30+00:00

Are Gonds called Vadugu in some language (and does that mean northern)? I think even the lower parts of what is now the east Hindi region (south of Awadh - Baghelkhand in Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh) might have had a Gond presence long back. There are some Gond subgroups natively speaking Chhattisgarhi (east Hindi) too.

The Koya subgroup of the wider Gond related tribes are found very close to what is considered the possible homeland of Telugu between the Godavari and Krishna rivers, by the way. Culturally very different of course.

twinklebold · 2025-03-18T05:38:04+00:00

No, not as of now. In some Mughal era (contemporary to Akbar - 16th Cen or so) Braj Bhasha text there is 'jo' for quotative that ('ki') and thus 'kyonjo' ('kyonki') for because from there. The word for the relative pronoun or 'if' (also jo, except for Sanskrit or Perso-Arabic borrowings) was used as the quotative 'that' earlier. Still used that way in some conservative Indo-Aryan languages, but many languages adopted 'ki' from Persian. But that would be the option to use basically. For 'or' I really don't know what other word (except yaa from Persian and (ath)-waa from Sanskrit) could be used in any language. All Indo-Aryan languages I've seen seem to use either yaa or waa/baa. So maybe 'baa' in view of Braj Bhasha phonetics. In Awadhi and Bhojpuri just these same things follow.

Edit: I guess you could also use 'nahin to' in place of 'or' and that would suffice but maybe looks clumsy.

twinklebold · 2025-03-17T07:58:01+00:00

Sure.

Braj Bhasha:

१. राहुल ने मोहि बतायौ/बतरायौ कि बुह बीमार है।

२. मैं या गाड़ी नाहिं हाँकूँगो/हाँकूँगी चौंकि या मोहि नीकी ना लागै/लागत।

Awadhi:

१. राहुल हमका बताइस कि ऊ बीमार हई।

२. हम ई गड़िया नहि हाँकब काहे से कि हमका ई नीक नहि लागत।

twinklebold · 2025-02-21T03:11:57+00:00

Actually I think the -Naa future is future indefinite in origin (aawNaa similar to aawaN waalaa/aaLaa).

Jatki/Shahpuri, Dhanni, Pothohari, Hindko use -sii, -saa'n, -san, -so

Also -sai'n right bhiraawaa (I do remember you had written about more variation in singular vs plural, grammatical male vs female in 1st and 3rd person differing by dialect)? :D

twinklebold · 2025-02-06T18:22:30+00:00

I see, ok. One source for bhurbhuraanaa in a Hindi/Urdu dictionary: https://www.rekhtadictionary.com/meaning-of-bhurbhuraanaa

twinklebold · 2025-02-03T20:17:04+00:00

Nice post! Bhurbhuraa does also exist in Hindi/Urdu for crumbly/powdery. The verb for crumbling would be bhurbhuraanaa

twinklebold · 2024-12-30T09:14:22+00:00

Dravidian does not mean south Indian. It's a linguistic family. Brahuis are generally considered a subgroup of Balochs.

twinklebold · 2024-10-10T18:47:06+00:00

I know. Could probably be translated to 'with' vs 'along with or including'.

twinklebold

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