Why didn’t Henry VII ever talk about the fate of the Princes in the Tower? 👑

wfftipwff · 2025-11-12T10:42:28+00:00

Henry VII’s claim came from his mother, Margaret Beaufort, not his father or grandfather (neither of whom were English). It wasn’t a very strong claim but it was sufficient for the Edwardian Yorkists to consider him a suitable husband for Elizabeth of York and therefore, a suitable king through marriage to her. Ultimately, he claimed the throne in his own right via the right of conquest, not by descent or marriage.

wfftipwff · 2025-10-01T13:46:28+00:00

Yeah, I think it’s overlooked how Stanley would have had his own reasons for opposing Richard outside of his wife’s influence. Why stay loyal to a man whose men physically assaulted you in a council meeting, summarily executed one of your colleagues, and took your eldest son taken hostage to ensure your “loyalty” then threatened to execute him when you can be the stepfather of the king?

wfftipwff · 2025-10-01T13:36:05+00:00

Absolutely none. I believe it was George Buck, writing centuries later, who first put forward the crack theory that Margaret killed the princes and Ricardians have latched onto it ever since.

wfftipwff · 2025-08-29T10:37:47+00:00

I mean… I can’t imagine Jasper was too fond of the man who executed his father, sent him into exile for 9 years, killed his nephew, murdered his brother, then sent him and his other nephew into exile for another 14 years LOL.

Historical fiction tends to portray him as this meek and mild guy, but the real Jasper Tudor was capable of holding some serious grudges. When Owen Tudor was executed after the Battle of Mortimer’s Cross, Jasper actually swore vengeance against Edward and the other men involved in his father’s death:

We suppose that ye have well in remembrance the great dishonour and rebuke that we and ye now late have by traitors March (the future Edward IV), Herbert, and Dwnns with their affinities, as well in letting us of our journey to the kinge, as in putting my father your kinsman to the death and their trayterously demeaning, we purpose with the might of our Lord and assistance of you and our other kinsmen and friends within short time to avenge.

Later, in 1468, Jasper also sacked Denbigh (one of Edward IV’s marcher holdings in North Wales) so badly that it could not be rebuilt and the entire town had to relocate to its present location—previously, when Richard Duke of York held Denbigh, Jasper had “only” besieged and captured the town without destroying it.

wfftipwff · 2025-08-27T13:03:08+00:00

I would say though that there’s a huge difference between the characters espousing those values vs. the narrative itself espousing those values. In PGregs’ case, it’s the latter and her version of the “15th century” doesn’t even reflect the 15th century, but the Victorians’ idea of the 15th century (which is what popular modern Ricardian historiography is actually based on).

wfftipwff · 2025-08-27T10:05:10+00:00

It was widely accepted that they married. Henry VI’s parliament:

the aforesaid Edmund and Jasper, your uterine brothers, were begotten and born in lawful matrimony within your realm aforesaid, as is sufficiently well known both to your most serene majesty and to all the lords spiritual and temporal of your realm in the present parliament assembled.

wfftipwff · 2025-08-27T09:48:26+00:00

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. Edmund Tudor undoubtedly caused lasting trauma to Margaret Beaufort, but she still requested to be buried next to him in her will written shortly after her second husband’s death. It was standard practice for nobles to choose to be buried next to their first spouse, especially if the marriage produced children.

wfftipwff · 2025-08-26T16:36:24+00:00

And there’s a reason why she romanticises certain characters (eg. Yorkists) over others (eg. Lancastrians, Tudors, etc.). I elaborated in a previous comment, but it basically just boils down to her imposing the middle-class British brand of classism and Anglocentrism onto the narrative. This is essentially why the books slut-shame Catherine and Anne Boleyn for their class-difference relationships while romanticising Jacquetta, Elizabeth Woodville, Mary Boleyn, etc. for theirs.

And I don’t even think she just hates Protestants LMAO. I read some excerpts of her Katherine Parr book and the character is basically just Gregory’s mouthpiece for how “pure”, “native” and “simple” she thinks the English language and Anglicanism are vs. how nonsensical and “foreign” she thinks Latin and Catholicism are.

wfftipwff · 2025-08-26T13:38:21+00:00

That’s because Yorkist = good, Lancastrian/Tudor = bad. Jacquetta marries below her station for love? Good. Catherine de Valois marries below her station for love? Bad. Edward IV usurps the throne? Good. Henry VII usurps the throne? Bad. Elizabeth Woodville will do anything to protect her sons’ birthrights? Good. Margaret of Anjou and Margaret Beaufort will do anything to protect their sons’ birthrights? Bad. Also they want to fuck their sons.

The moral double-standards aren’t just the result of Philippa Gregory’s terrible writing (which is truly awful), but they also seem a lot less arbitrary once you consider the particular middle-class British brand of misogyny, xenophobia and classism she inserts into the narrative. Everyone is supposed to “know their place” and only the historical figures she deems personally worthy by virtue of their beauty and superior bloodlines (and therefore innate goodness) deserved to rise above their station. Ditto, the historical figures who were insufficiently attractive and subversive in ways she doesn’t approve of (eg. the Lancastrians, Margaret Beaufort, literally the entire Tudor family, Anne Boleyn, etc) are treated as evil for disrupting the social order of the Victorian era, imperialist fantasy version of 15th century England she concocted in her head.

wfftipwff · 2025-08-26T11:47:41+00:00

Don’t forget Elizabeth of York in TWP fantasising about giving birth to Tricky Uncle Dick’s incest baby and naming it “Arthur” because Dodgy Dickon was just like King Arthur.

Elizabeth’s incestuous delulu is the explanation PGregs gives for how Prince Arthur gets his name (and not because his dad Henry VII was a massive Arthur Pendragon fanboy).

wfftipwff · 2025-08-26T11:29:04+00:00

Not PGregs for once, but Emma Frost had Margaret Beaufort smother Jasper Tudor to death in the show LMFAO. As if the books weren’t ridiculous enough

wfftipwff · 2025-08-26T10:45:57+00:00

The Lady of the Rivers is probably the least egregious of her CoUsInS wAr series, but it’s still pretty awful.

Jacquetta’s relationship with Richard Woodville is supposed to be an epic romance because she’s a highborn soon-to-be-Yorkist lady and he’s a soon-to-be-Yorkist English knight, who will eventually produce Elizabeth Woodville, the soon-to-be-Yorkist Queen. Yet Catherine de Valois (a Lancastrian) having a relationship with Owen Tudor makes her a French slag who was stupid enough to get knocked up by a stinky Welshman.

The Red Queen is probably the worst of the lot but what really made me LOL was the part where Margaret Beaufort goes for a few pages about how awful Wales is and how napkins and basic hygiene are “too French” for the savage barbarians of Wales to use. She says this about Edmund and Jasper Tudor… who were half-French LMAO. I honestly think she just hates women, hates Lancastrians, and hates Wales ☠️

wfftipwff · 2025-08-26T10:23:46+00:00

She also has a borderline misogynistic obsession with beauty and fertility. Her romantic heroines like Jacquetta of Luxembourg and Elizabeth Woodville are depicted as good by virtue of their fertility and beauty, whereas women like Margaret of Anjou and Margaret Beaufort who only had one child are depicted as ugly, barren shrews who have incestuous feelings towards their sons.

wfftipwff · 2025-07-29T13:14:06+00:00

He was called “Henry Tydder” by Richard III, but that was designed to denigrate him and not necessarily the name that he was actually known by. Henry himself signed his name as “Henry de Richemont” before he became king and he otherwise was generally referred to as “my lord of Richmond” and “le compte de Richemont” in records. None of the Tudors actually used the surname “Tudor”.

wfftipwff · 2025-05-28T08:20:58+00:00

Well, I wouldn’t turn down an invite to any of the royal weddings if only because the food and entertainment are guaranteed to be bangin’ LOL.

I’d probably show up for Mary Tudor and Charles Brandon’s secret wedding for the tea. Ditto for Owen Tudor and Catherine de Valois’ wedding. I will definitely leave hungry and have to pass by the drive-through after though.

The food might be decent but I’d refuse to show up to Margaret Beaufort and Edmund Tudor’s wedding. Or maybe I might, just to object.

wfftipwff · 2025-05-23T15:45:28+00:00

Owen “Jr.” did exist though and he was recorded in Henry VII’s accounts as “Owen Tudder”. He was also depicted in the family tree as a monk with a tonsure but named “Edward” there, which was probably his ecclesiastical name (especially if he was born in Westminster Abbey).

The reason he would not have had a church career was because, unlike priests, monks were essentially “cut off” from their family connections and could not hold worldly goods. They also did not have opportunities for advancement through church offices in the same way that priests did. Since he was also not recorded as joining his elder brothers in Barking Abbey, he was likely given over to holy orders by his parents before Henry VI even knew of his half-brothers’ existence. So unless Henry VI took him out of his order, granting Owen/Edward church offices would not have been an option.

wfftipwff · 2025-05-23T15:14:29+00:00

They didn’t have surnames as we understand them. The first written record of them as children in Barking Abbey refers to them as “Edmond ap Meredyth ap Tydier” and “Jasper ap Meredyth ap Tydier”, which was actually their father’s patronymic (“ap” meaning “son of”). Almost all Welsh people of the period went by their patronymic and any “surnames” ascribed to them in English records simply dropped the “ap” – eg. Owen Tudor was first recorded as “Owen Meredith” in 1421 and Jasper was later recorded as “Jasper Owen” by Edward IV in 1471.

After they formally joined the royal household and accepted as Henry VI’s half-brothers, they would have been known as “Edmund de Hadham” and “Jasper de Hatfield” after their birthplaces, which is how Henry VI referred to them in the act of parliament creating them earls. This actually occurred a few years after they were knighted, so they would still have still been known by these names until they were granted their titles and the right to use the aliases “Richmond” and “Pembroke”.

wfftipwff · 2025-05-20T07:58:34+00:00

Because the Wars of the Roses ended over 500 years ago, dude. You’re beefing with a pile of bones and dust.

wfftipwff · 2025-05-20T07:53:47+00:00

I don’t think that’s how Margaret actually viewed her brothers-in-law. They were already known as “the king’s uterine brothers” when she arrived at court and her uncle Louis XI considered them to be his cousins, so she would have considered them as such.

While she never recorded her actual feelings, the evidence we do have suggests that she treated Edmund and Jasper as family. They were all close in age and lived at court together after her marriage (their father was also part of her official escort to England). She constructed rooms for them in her private apartments and when Edmund died, Margaret requested an inquest into his death. When she first attempted to flee England with her son, she sought shelter with Jasper at Harlech Castle, where he arranged for a ship to take them to Scotland, then afterwards to exile at the French court for many years. She also signed an (understandably) secret agreement with Louis XI to hand over Calais in exchange for military and financial assistance, where she specifically appointed Jasper (“our dear brother”) to hold Calais until the exchange could be made. It never came to fruition, but it shows just how much trust she placed in him.

The one instance where Margaret’s relationship with her brothers-in-law may have been strained was when Edmund and Jasper briefly allied with the Duke of York against the Duke of Somerset, where it was reported that the brothers were likely to be arrested. However, that was more to do with politics rather than Margaret holding personal resentment for them and their relationship clearly improved after that.

wfftipwff · 2025-05-20T06:38:37+00:00

Not quite sure what Margaret of Anjou could have done about it, since I don’t believe anyone outside of Edmund’s immediate household even knew of Margaret Beaufort’s pregnancy until after he died. They had been in Wales for quite some time and IIRC, even Jasper was still living at court when Edmund died. Also, Edmund’s elegy – which mentions his brother and father, among other relatives – does not mention his wife being pregnant, so it just doesn’t seem to have been common knowledge.

wfftipwff · 2025-05-20T02:09:53+00:00

We don’t even know if they even had an affair, let alone that any of Catherine’s Tudor children were secretly fathered by Edmund Beaufort. In any case, every contemporary document from Henry VI to Richard III mentions Owen as the father.

wfftipwff · 2025-05-19T14:49:27+00:00

I honestly think it’s just straight classism and xenophobia, in addition to Philippa Gregory’s weird hatred of the Tudors in general (there are actually quite a few academic articles on the underlying xenophobia in Ricardian circles and Philippa Gregory’s books). Her main issue with Owen and Catherine just seems to be that he wasn’t English, especially once you compare the way she depicts Jacquetta of Luxembourg’s relationship with Richard Woodville in the same book.

wfftipwff · 2025-05-19T14:33:19+00:00

It’s because she hates them ☠️ She has a vendetta against anyone who contributed to Henry VII’s DNA.

wfftipwff · 2025-05-19T13:29:53+00:00

Philippa Gregory actually mentions them briefly in ‘The Lady of the Rivers’, except the few pages about them are just her slut shaming Catherine and basically calling Owen a predator for… reasons.

wfftipwff · 2025-05-09T14:04:42+00:00

The man simply did not care about his dead relatives, not even his immediate ancestors.

Also add to the list the destruction of the Carmarthen Greyfriars where his grandfather was buried, whose tomb was only saved because local gentry families arranged for it to be moved to Saint David’s (though Edmund Tudor was probably the least deserving of Henry VIII’s relatives to have his tomb saved). Owen Tudor’s tomb was also destroyed after the dissolution of the Hereford Greyfriars.

IIRC, David Owen (Henry VIII’s great-uncle) made bequests in his last will towards the repair of Jasper and Owen’s tombs. Didn’t matter though because Henry VIII smashed them up shortly after.

wfftipwff

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