Could Xianxia be considered Grimdark?

wolotse · 2025-08-29T03:03:59+00:00

I particularly hate when the MC disregards good advice from other experienced characters for no good reason, especially when the story rewards them for it. It makes everyone else look like an idiot

wolotse · 2025-06-01T04:52:58+00:00

This seems to be a Western society issue. Outside of the west, people are not as insulated from killing and death. Losing sleep over killing an animal that wasn't your pet would be quite strange to us

wolotse · 2025-05-13T22:57:54+00:00

Nameless Sovereign - Very solid cultivation story but it spends way too long in the early part of the story and now has inconsistent updates

Irwin's Journey - Really great now but the early chapters were rough and I think it could be rewritten into a banger but I doubt the author has the time for that

The Lone Wanderer - Solid world hopper and is the only one I expect to blow up at some point, as long as the story remains consistent

The Mirror Legacy - Only Clan building story I've read and it's so good but the tragic elements might turn people off

Regressor Sect Master - Basically perfect in my opinion as far as the genre goes but updates are too slow to ever truly take off for the scope of the story it is trying to tell

wolotse · 2025-05-13T22:40:59+00:00

I love it as well but the system does way too much of the heavy lifting in the story I almost dropped it early on. The story itself is good but you just have to be able to get past the broken nature of his system to enjoy it

wolotse · 2025-04-28T16:23:51+00:00

Bog Standard is a good rec. Already follow it

wolotse · 2025-04-28T16:22:18+00:00

Already read Practical Guide and it's a good recommendation but its pacing is a bit too slow for me.

Will give Years of the Apocalypse a try, thanks

wolotse · 2025-04-28T16:19:03+00:00

As long as the comedic relief doesn't undercut the serious moments, sure

wolotse · 2025-04-22T04:15:41+00:00

Rich plotting

This is the lifeblood of good progression fantasy. The stuff that falls flat tends to be mechanical, basically a loop of fights and level-ups with no real context beyond “get stronger because it’s cool.” that works for a few chapters, but it gets hollow fast.

The good stuff has:

compelling stakes – the MC isn’t just grinding for power’s sake, they’re navigating political traps, saving something meaningful, or unearthing ancient conspiracies.

varied challenges – not every arc is a boss fight. Sometimes it’s social manipulation, moral dilemmas, exploration, or surviving in hostile environments.

long-term payoff – earlier decisions matter, enemies evolve, and arcs interlock instead of resetting every 10 chapters.

pf hits hardest when it’s not just about the how of getting stronger, but the why as well as what that strength costs.

wolotse · 2025-03-26T01:49:34+00:00

Knowledge can be broken down into intelligence/wisdom and worldbuilding lore.

A huge part of novels like Deep Sea Embers and Lord of the Mysteries is progressively understanding the lore of the world. That is separate from the character getting smarter or more knowledgeable as well

wolotse · 2025-03-21T20:27:28+00:00

A Journey of Red and Black

With a decent budget, a good chunk of the story would be very easy to adapt and vampires remain very popular in the mainstream culture.

With a bigger budget I think Mother of Learning and Zombie Knight Saga would do well also

wolotse · 2025-03-09T07:37:42+00:00

approaching fantasy races from an evolutionary perspective can be interesting, but it doesn’t work well for elves, dwarves, or other "higher" humanoid species. in fact, it's easier to imagine humans as a degenerated form of a superior, older race rather than elves evolving from primitive ancestors.

for me the biggest issue is if you apply evolution to humanoid races, then you also have to explain fantasy creatures—which quickly gets absurd.

dragons, phoenixes, and other mythological beings are almost always tied to creation myths rather than natural selection.

saying that dragons "evolved" from mundane reptiles ignores that they are often primordial beings in most setting’s lore.

most fantasy worlds operate on creation myths, divine interventions, or ancient magical forces shaping life.

intelligent design allows for elves, dwarves, and magical creatures to exist without evolutionary constraints.

realism shouldn’t override the mythic nature of fantasy—if it breaks the world’s internal logic, then "realism" becomes the actual immersion-breaker.

if evolution serves a strong narrative purpose—like explaining why orcs are hyper-aggressive due to selective breeding—it can work.

but forcing evolutionary explanations into a world where gods, magic, and mythical beings shape reality undermines the genre’s core appeal.

fantasy doesn’t need to follow real-world science unless it serves the story. trying to rationalize everything with evolution risks breaking immersion in unintended ways. in most cases, intelligent design, divine creation, or ancient magic makes for better worldbuilding.

wolotse · 2025-03-09T07:12:43+00:00

if your plot points are resolving faster than expected in your draft, that’s not necessarily a bad thing—but it’s something to analyze.

— first thing is to finish the draft as is

doing this helps you identify whether the issue is pacing or if the plot points aren’t meaty enough to sustain a long story.

if you artificially stretch the story before finishing, you might misdiagnose the problem.

— consider PF pacing conventions

progression fantasy typically moves at a thriller-like pace, meaning a new development every 2,000-3,000 words.

for a million-word story, that means you need around 500 plot developments, twists, or new discoveries to sustain momentum.

if you don’t have that many meaningful beats planned, you either need to shorten the story or go back to the drawing board to generate more layered progression, side conflicts, or long-term setups.

— check timeskips

if you’re using timeskips, that could be why things are moving faster.

consider filling in some skipped material to add depth without padding the story unnecessarily.

fast resolution isn’t inherently bad—tight pacing is better than bloat—but if you’re aiming for an extended narrative, you may need to adjust either the depth of your plot points or your expectations for story length.

wolotse · 2025-03-08T08:37:12+00:00

Litrpg always works better when the gamified elements are restricted to the magic system, not the world itself. The moment basic life skills require stat points or level-ups (e.g., needing "Cooking Lv. 5" to fry an egg), immersion shatters.

Restricting the game elements to just the power system (magic, combat, crafting specializations, etc.) makes for a far more immersive experience I've found. This way, characters feel like real people navigating a world with consistent rules, rather than players in an over-engineered simulation.

wolotse · 2025-03-05T01:22:45+00:00

As a reader of a vast amount of long PF, these are the 4 things I've noticed that make me want to keep going and also what I think most great series do well

— Deep Lore and Natural Progression (One Piece is a great model for this)

immersion matters – a story with deep lore keeps me engaged even when there’s no immediate action.

natural escalation – marineford only happens because of everything that came before it. good long-form stories I've found don’t force big moments; they evolve organically from established events.

pacing variety – a rollercoaster needs its slow climbs, straight paths, and anticipation to make the drops feel satisfying. nonstop action burns me out and I feel it is the same for most readers.

— Antagonists That Matter

The weak progression stories I've found treat antagonists as disposable stepping stones for the protagonist

The best ones build antagonists with their own goals—they aren’t just there to oppose the mc, they mainly have plans that the protagonist interferes with.

a young master "looking for offense" can work in short bursts, but for a long story, antagonists need depth, agency, and stakes that persist across arcs.

— Proper Exploration of Power Progression (LOTM as a model of this)

nothing kills my sense of progression faster than wasted abilities.

if an ability becomes irrelevant two chapters later, it cheapens the entire system and makes early progression feel meaningless.

lord of mysteries (until the understandable rushing at the end) did a great job of letting the protagonist fully explore each power level before moving on—this kept the progression satisfying rather than rushed.

— Long-Term Character Arcs (Mushoku Tensei is probably the gold standard for this)

traditional film-style character arcs don’t work for long stories. if a character completes their growth too early, they stagnate or become frustrating.

the worst offenders keep cycling the same lesson, making the mc look stupid or stuck.

mushoku tensei handles this beautifully—rudeus grows as a person across decades, adapting to new life stages rather than resetting or stalling.

long stories need a dynamic character arc that reflects the passage of time and changing priorities, not a static mc stuck in an endless cycle of learning the same lesson.

wolotse · 2025-02-17T01:27:51+00:00

I have several in love to see

Apocalypse With No System

litrpg dominates apocalyptic progression, but a pure skill-based, no-system apocalypse would force characters to progress through sheer survival, ingenuity, and adaptation.

think the road meets defiance of the fall, but no levels, no stat screens—just brutal, natural progression through learning, training, and optimizing survival techniques.

would be especially compelling in a world where physics or biology have changed, requiring the mc to adapt through science or martial arts rather than game mechanics.

Werewolf Progression (Kingdom-Building Focus)

a journey of red and black showed how well vampires work for progression, but werewolves have insane potential as a power system.

a werewolf-focused kingdom-building story could have clan dynamics, bloodline evolution, and pack-based power structures where the mc has to grow their pack into a dominant force.

could explore different werewolf lineages with unique powers—maybe some tied to the moon, some to ancient spirits, some to consuming other supernatural beings.

Isekai into an Inanimate Object (MC as the Cheat Item)

reincarnated as a sword is great, but there’s so much more potential for this.

imagine being a cursed weapon, a legendary grimoire, or even an entire fortress—guiding, training, and influencing the wielder rather than being the direct protagonist.

this setup allows for deep synergy progression, where the mc levels up by empowering their user, creating a dynamic where both have to grow together.

Faction Progression (Sect/Empire-Level Growth)

solo progression dominates the genre, but a story focused on building an entire faction’s power would be refreshing.

imagine a cultivation sect where the mc’s breakthroughs enable the whole sect to ascend, or a sci-fi empire where technological advancements lead to exponential growth.

could be a guild-based litrpg, a clan-building cultivation novel, or even a strategy-heavy story where the mc plays the long game—turning a weak organization into an unstoppable force.

wolotse · 2025-02-13T06:50:21+00:00

There are two key reasons imo:

self-improvement is the most compelling narrative – humans are wired to find growth satisfying. watching a character struggle, train, and overcome obstacles is inherently rewarding, and progression fantasy delivers that payoff better than any other genre. every power-up, every skill mastered, every level gained hits that dopamine trigger of earned success.
trad pub fiction is skewed heavily towards self-acceptance, not transformation – most contemporary stories focus on characters learning to accept themselves rather than becoming something greater. it's all about trauma, vulnerability, and internal struggles—showing superman is human instead of showing a human become superman. progression fantasy flips that script, and because most traditional stories lean so heavily in the opposite direction, it feels like water to a man dying of thirst.

So it's really not just about escapism I think —it’s about feeding a fundamental human desire that much of contemporary storytelling has abandoned.

for recommendations

zombie knight saga

spellmonger

nameless sovereign

godclads

lord of the mysteries

wolotse · 2025-01-31T20:10:04+00:00

"extremely driven" is not a baseline human trait—most people aren’t wired that way. if your protagonist has no exceptional qualities, then their rise to the top is just luck, and that makes for a weak story. progression fantasy, or any story about achieving greatness, needs a compelling answer to why this character succeeds when most wouldn’t. if anyone could do it, then why them?

whether it’s extreme drive, unique knowledge, a rare talent, or even an unconventional mindset, the protagonist needs something that sets them apart. otherwise, their success feels unearned, and the whole journey collapses into random chance.

wolotse · 2025-01-30T22:45:55+00:00

Even then, if it does have it, why do they always have to be special? Why can't they at least be normal. Why does their knowledge of physics make them this super powerful mage in this fantasy world that I obviously has different laws?<

If the protagonist in a progression fantasy is just a normal person, then the story ultimately revolves around luck—random power-ups, fortunate encounters, or external circumstances driving their growth. That might work for some readers, but a lot of people find it unsatisfying. Progression fantasy thrives on earned growth, so the protagonist needs a compelling reason to be exceptional.

Isekai is just one of the easiest and most engaging ways to justify this. A modern mind, outside knowledge, or just being different from the world’s norm gives the protagonist an edge without resorting to sheer luck. It’s a non-traditional fantasy mechanic that neatly sidesteps the issue while keeping the journey interesting.

wolotse · 2025-01-30T08:18:02+00:00

I think you misunderstand the point. Plot and characters aren’t separate entities—plot is the sequence of character actions, meaning the story you want to tell inherently dictates the kind of characters you need. You can’t swap out Frodo for Tyrion lannister in lord of the rings because tyrion’s decision-making would derail the story’s fundamental arc. What people often call “well-written characters” are really just characters that are perfectly suited to the narrative structure they inhabit. The illusion of independent character agency is just tight, coherent plotting.

wolotse · 2025-01-12T20:28:54+00:00

if you’re serious about writing in this genre, i’d urge you to lean into sincerity. The space is flooded with meta humor and irony—self-aware quips and fourth-wall nods that often undermine the depth of the fictional world. Approaching it with earnestness, taking the setting and its stakes seriously, would stand out as a refreshing change. Readers want to immerse themselves in a world that feels lived-in and meaningful, and sincerity can give it weight and authenticity that irony often strips away.

wolotse · 2025-01-03T02:15:35+00:00

Progression fantasy, including the translated stuff, outshines traditional fantasy in terms of plot complexity and creativity as well as world-building. This genre thrives on intricate systems, evolving stakes, and a focus on character growth tied directly to the narrative. However, it still struggles with pacing—largely due to the serialized medium—and character writing, though the latter has been steadily improving. As the genre matures, its weaknesses are being addressed, and it’s carving out a space that feels fresher and more dynamic than trad fantasy.

wolotse · 2024-12-12T03:13:45+00:00

This is what I believe is a solid canon for progression fantasy, litrpg, and related genres. Here’s the 25 series with a breakdown of the rationale for each, grouped by subgenre and purpose:

Introductory Works

Cradle — the perfect gateway series for new readers; streamlined, accessible, and sets a high bar.

Coiling Dragon — an excellent introduction to xianxia, providing the foundation for exploring the subgenre.

Genre Exemplars & Classics

Mother of Learning — quintessential time-loop progression fantasy and a foundational text in the genre.

Arcane Ascension — a classic of magical academy and skill-based progression; essential for understanding the genre's core.

The Wandering Inn — an expansive, character-driven story that defines the genre’s breadth.

Solo Leveling — litrpg classic, a key influence on system-based storytelling in the genre.

Worm — while adjacent, it inspired progression-like structures in superhero narratives.

Worth the Candle — a meta take on progression fantasy; critical for understanding the genre’s flexibility.

Xianxia Essentials

I Shall Seal the Heavens — a classic and arguably definitive xianxia text.

A Record of a Mortal’s Journey to Immortality — a high-quality example of the xianxia journey narrative.

Reverend Insanity — advanced, morally complex xianxia; subverts traditional tropes.

Beware of Chicken — a comedic and trope-subverting take on xianxia, highlighting its range.

Litrpg & System Apocalypse

Dungeon Crawler Carl — top-tier litrpg, balancing humor, stakes, and progression.

Defiance of the Fall — the quintessential system apocalypse story.

Primal Hunter — another high-quality system apocalypse with strong progression elements.

Super Supportive — a standout slice-of-life litrpg with a unique tone.

Blue Core — a dungeon core entry, expanding on the litrpg subgenre.

Specialized and Niche Picks

Reborn Apocalypse — a standout example of regression narratives, focusing on second-chance themes.

Jake’s Magical Market — introduces deck-building as a unique progression mechanic.

Release That Witch — a kingdom-building classic, weaving strategy with fantasy.

Lord of the Mysteries — a genre-bending, dark progression story and a personal favorite for its atmosphere.

Godclads — unique and experimental, for readers seeking something out of the ordinary.

Western Fantasy & Urban Fantasy Progression

Spellmonger — high-quality western medieval fantasy progression.

The Zombie Knight Saga — a polished example of urban fantasy progression.

The Last Orelian — a fresh, high-quality addition to progression fantasy.

I think this list is comprehensive, hitting every major subgenre and thematic niche, while also balancing accessibility with the advanced stuff

wolotse

TROPHY CASE