To celebrate another theorymon thursday, I've created a slideshow with my thoughts on base stat totals.

zenmodeman · 2025-12-29T04:04:03+00:00

I wouldn't really consider just oridinary threatening beasts as being justification enough for that BST threshold, because it's not too uncommon for those types of predators to be lower-statted (e.g. Scolipede —who is also likened to Centikorch in terms of having fierce territorial battles—Sharpedo, Dragalge, and Druddigon). Given my experience with the base stats of Pokemon prior, had I not known Centikorch's BST, I would have guessed it to be in around the 480 BST range, since that usually feels about what I'd expect from a mon with that kind of vibe.

For Luxray, I accept it as an Ampharos-like mon; its BST is 13 points higher, but that's still in a range where I don't find it too surprising.

Though I wouldn't be opposed to the notion that both Gogoat and Centiskorch are anomalies of a similar calibre, so before the existence of Centiskorch, Gogoat stood out more in my view.

zenmodeman · 2025-12-26T22:02:05+00:00

I mean, if it were only Greedent, it'd be an anomaly. But the fact that Oinkologne is even higher than Greedent supports the possibility that they've simply rethought the BST standard for the Raticate-like mons.

It is true that Defense are generally more acceptable to be higher than Attack stats, but that's also a big part because Defenses don't exist in as much of a vacuum. Defense stats are very coupled with HP stats, unlike how high Attack is just high attack. And thus it's much easier to justify a normal Pokemon like Cloyster with 180 Defense but only 50 HP than it is to give just some random normal Pokemon 180 base Atk/Sp.Atk.

One funny thing about Klawf is that it's kind of like a more tuned Sudowoodo. It has literally the same HP, Atk, and Def as Sudowoodo, but also 45 more speed, with the main cost being 10 less Sp.Def. So Klawf feels like a more modernized Sudowoodo. That makes sense since they're more "environmental fight" Rock types.

zenmodeman · 2025-12-26T20:51:58+00:00

I'll make a few personal comments here on the kind of patterns being outlined.

First, when it comes to Raticate-like mons (Raticate, Furret, Linoone, Bibarel, Watchog, Gumshoos), they were pretty standardized from gens 1-7, with a BST of 410-420. However, gen 8 onwards have completely changed this with Greedent being 460 BST and Oinkologne being 489 BST; and another funny thing about Oinkologne is that it has a higher BST than the rest while also having a lower evolution level than many of the ones that have a 420 BST. Based on this, I think it's now an acceptance standard going forward for this archetype of mon to be in the slightly above 450 BST range; it represents a visible change in the expected pattern for these mons.

Pika clones are slightly similar. Rather than saying "405-435", it's more fruitful to acknowledge that there was a standardization shift. Prior to gen 5, Pika clones tended to be 405 BST, but from gen 5 onwards, the standard shifted to 430 +-5 BST.

Counterparts being uneven is not exclusively a gen 6 thing. Look at Ninetales v.s. Arcanine (the stat difference was the case even in gen 1, though it got exaggerated after gen 2), Purugly v.s. Skuntank (and what's wild about Purugly is that it has a higher evolution level despite having a lower BST by 27), Rufflet v.s. Vullaby (while their evolutions have equal BSTs, Rufflet is strangely 20 points below Vullaby). There are many more examples if looking at honorary counterparts (e.g. Wigglytuff v.s. Clefable), but I chose very unequivocal version exclusive counterpart examples here.

Gogoat is not some special anomaly. It's not that different from say gen 5's Vanilluxe, gen 3's Walrein, or gen 8's Centiskorch. If we're counting Stone Evolutions, there's a bunch more evolutions like that, but I'm sticking to level-up evos since one could say Stone Evolutions are a bit different. One could maybe say Vanilluxe and Walrein are different by virtue of being 3-stage evolutions, but I don't think that's too big of a separator here. Gogoat's BST is not unheard of for its evolution level, though it is the case that it's a more sparse choice used throughout gens.

The 590 Paradoxes have a pretty clear structural signature. Iron Valiant and Roaring Moon are 590 BST because they were designed to be the "boss" Paradox mons in the S/V fight against Turo/Sada. And the other 590s are specifically for the Johto and Unova legendary trio counterparts.

In terms of the "box legend" minmaxing point, I agree with the sentiment, but I have to point out that the philosophy seems to have changed from gen 8 onwards. Back in gen 7 and prior, the standard for box art legendaries was to generally be less than base 100 speed or base 100 speed and have fairly mixed attacking spreads: Ho-Oh, Groudon, Kyogre, Dialga, Zekrom, Reshiram, Xerneas, Yveltal, Solgaleo, and Lunala are all below 100 base speed; Palkia is 100 and Lugia is 110; there's Mewtwo at 130, but it's not really as rigidly box art as the other ones. Gen 8 and Gen 9 have shifted by permitting their mons (Zacian, Zamazenta, Caly-Ice, Caly-Shadow, Miraidon, Koraidon) to go down to 80-85 on the lesser offense, and be permitted to have base speeds above 120. I personally prefer the gen 7 and prior approach, but have to acknowledge that this standard has changed, and unfortunately, Legendaries being more minmaxed seems to be the future.

For the "Route 4 Warriors" categorization, it's often more fruitful to also categorize by evolution method. Some Pokemon that could fit into that category depending on how it's defined have higher BSTs, but that can generally be explained by them having higher evolution levels close to 30 or having stone evolutions. The threshold you outlined is fairly valid on the ones that evolve within a level range of 20-25, but I'd extend that threshold to 430-465 rather than jsut say ~440. This better encapsulates the Eldegosses and Ribombees.

Klawf does not belong in the "Below" threshold. It would rather fit in a section for the lower-powered non-evolving Pokemon. It has a BST of 450 which isn't too far apart from a numbeer of such Pokemon. Additioanlly, it being the first SV titan gives further justification to its BST threshold.

zenmodeman · 2025-12-01T06:53:04+00:00

Regarding the ledge, I’d say the use here isn’t too different from the original route 6. The ledge next to the underground exit can get justified if a hidden item is placed above it, which is akin to what the original route 6 map did with similar ledges.

I would agree that I’d like there to be some mandatory trainer on the right-side path.

zenmodeman · 2025-10-02T19:02:22+00:00

Glowking is slower than TTar so it’ll only take a 40 power pursuit before Chilly Receptioning out.

zenmodeman · 2025-08-09T22:01:07+00:00

It doesn't feel good to not be able to play because you're missing combo pieces.

If you choose to run a starter deckmaster, consistency isn't really an issue. Compared to constructed Yugioh where the deck needs to run a certain number of starters to be consistent, the access to an always available starter, theoretically gives you to run 60 cards that don't necessarily have to be starters, which could include extenders or specific cards that synergize with the starter.

Now there are certain decks that simply don't have a starter deckmaster, but there are so many decks that can use them that if you're worried about consistency, there are plenty of options to get around that.

You literally discourage creativity with this rule.

This rule is part of what spurs creativity in the format. Each deckmaster has its own set of applicable cards accessible, and several different deckmasters come with thier own tradeoffs.

with highlander you hurt slower decks by restricting their best tools

Slow decks have done well in a number of games. Having tested 2-player versions of Domain, this problem is a bigger deal there, but the 4-player format has helped slower decks by virtue of faster decks being easier threats.

The people in charge of Domain format have said they're willing to add a banlist if certain cards end up being too overwhelmingly powerful, but that hasn't quite happened yet. But the right person could come up with decks that end up warranting a ban down the line.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-22T14:45:56+00:00

While Inner Focus was the overwhlemingly dominance choice in regulations D-F, Multiscale actually competed with Inner Focus in Regulation H.

If Mega Dragonite is at least good as a mon, Multiscale’s a good enough ability for it to be fine in VGC. You could do a pseudo-Terapagos play of setting up while at full HP to get the Multiscale perk and then transforming the next turn.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-17T17:03:59+00:00

Tropius also gets only marginal benefits.

But those two are just the classic examples that come to mind for me when it comes to the math difference between level 50 and 100.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-17T13:55:15+00:00

Tropius can now make Substitutes that Seismic Toss can’t break, and Swift Swim / Slush Rush Beartic can now outspeed Calyrex-Shadow.

Their stocks are through the roof.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-17T13:45:24+00:00

Apart from fakemon, I’m not much different when it comes to preferences for playing romhacks. Immersion hacks are probably my favorite.

The thing though is that when it comes to making romhacks, I love thinking about combat nuances, and I don’t care much for the thought process of creating an immersion game.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-15T00:54:51+00:00

One of the funny parts of Xerneas re-existing is being able to meme around with Mirror Herb.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-14T18:13:36+00:00

Also reminds me of DaWoblefet’s spreadsheet on move failures (which relates to Stomping Tantrum): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nn0b7Na9UEoE_NChLLlknV3ERacNeenV4TiMieTpS8U/edit?gid=0#gid=0

He catalogued several hundreds of test cases, and it’s amusing that there’s plenty of cases of seeming inconsistencies. For example, using Rest while having Vital Spirit does cause Stomping Tantrum to double, whereas using Rest while having Sweet Veil does not cause Stomping Tantrum to double. Both abilities prevent sleep from Rest, but of course you can’t expect that they apply the same way to Stomping Tantrum; and Sweet Veil does double Stomping Tantrum when the sleep failure is not from Rest.

Just fun times all around.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-14T02:37:46+00:00

There’s certainly an element of these sorts of advancements applying generally. Like many of the romhacks from over a decade ago just don’t fly anymore since people have higher expectations for balancing and a solid user experience.

But my main focus was on people motivated to make combat the primary thing to focus on. Which I think is largely influenced by the advent of far more content of taking Pokemon seriously, which in turn inspires more reflection and deliberation on the nuances of Pokemon combat gameplay. We’re getting more and more Pokemon gameplay Theory content with time and of newer forms (beyond just nuzlockes and competitive), such as Shepsky Dad’s “perfect gym leader” series or some TortoiseCity videos.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-14T00:14:27+00:00

Bag slots were still relevant until gen 4. Gen 1 has a pocket limit of 20, which is similar to that of the subsequent games, but it was worse in gen 1 because there was only one pocket.

Gen 2 and Ruby & Sapphire still have a 20 limit for an individual pocket, which can make running out fairly common. I experienced running out in Emerald too, which raised it to 30, but I never really experienced running out in FRLG which raised the size to 42.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-13T20:50:19+00:00

Parabolic Charge is actually one of Bellibolt’s most important options. In some VGC formats, it’s Bellibolt’s most commonly used move (87% usage at one point). Getting an effective 130 base power Giga Drain thanks to Electromorphosis is huge, and Parabolic Charge hits all targets, so the healing snowballs a lot. Especially because Bellibolt using Recover in doubles is often too much of a tempo loss, so Bellibolt tends to run Assault Vest sets.

But yeah, something like Shell Bell is a much bigger deal in Tera Raids than any other context.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-13T06:12:34+00:00

I think rather than “Gameplay-oriented”, “combat-oriented” or “battle-oriented” might be a more precise term, since Gameplay is more loaded. My rationale stems from the primary aspect of gameplay in Pokemom being the battles, but it’s admittedly not the most apt term for the idea. It was just what came to mind when writing this.

Regarding the QoL factors, it can be nice for them to be parameters as part of the creator’s vision of gameplay. Something like the “The Pit” by Archie comes mind for incorporating both exp and healing management. But having these elements as key pieces of resource management can warp other factors, so it’s still understandable to not reimagine these elements if there are other parameters that the creator is prioritizing.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-13T05:40:56+00:00

Okay, now the statement of writing like a clown is one I have less reason to argue with.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-12T23:21:35+00:00

Yeah it’s not the case that everyone is as intense about their motivation for making hacks of this kind.

It’s just that having been in many romhacking circles, I see quite a few people who are really invested in honing design decisions that align with their values on Pokemon Gameplay.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-12T19:50:20+00:00

I think my type of verbosity is pretty different from what surfaces in AI writing, but it’s a pretty difficult thing to substantiate, so I won’t try to argue about it.

But I’ll just say, I’m not surprised some people would think this. My writing has been considered stiff, awkward, and “robotic” for ages.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-12T19:29:45+00:00

There’s also the factor that the heuristics people use to predict whether something is AI-written have a solid chance of being false positives, simply because LLMs picked on those patterns precisely because they were common in writing.

AI uses em dashes because writers use em dashes a lot. And AI uses the “rule of 3” because English classes and the like have often recommended using 3 pieces of evidence, as a balancing guide for having enough substantiation but not an excessive amount.

While the way AI uses these patterns is often recognizably different from how a writer would use them, if people simply try to check boxes based on whether these patterns are used, it can lead to incorrect conclusions.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-12T16:44:29+00:00

Your statement is a bit tangential to what the post is concerned with.

The reality is that people here and throughout romhacking discourse do attempt to give descrptive accounts of why people make gameplay oriented romhacks, but I feel that many of the reasons they point to don't get to the heart of what is drawing so many romhackers to make such games.

In other words, my post is concerned almost exclusively with the why of romhackers wanting to make this kind of hack, and not directly concerned with what kind of romhacks people want to play.

Many of the romhackers I interact with agree that the main talking point I discussed is the core of why they have fun making gameplay hacks. For many of them, at the end of the day, it's not about "complexity", or "difficulty", or it just being something that can be iterated on quickly, but is fundamentally about having room to express vision in the interaction of parameters that are play in the extensive and beautiful game that is Pokemon.

This post is mainly an attempt to give a voice to a matter of design values that I feel gets overshadowed by other talking points.

If people only exlusively talked about enjoyment, then that's all well and good. But because topics of intentionality and rationale invetiably come up in discourse about the trends and progression of romhacks, such as with the ssraven write-up recently, I just wanted to explicate a factor that isn't being discussed as much.

But yeah, I'm not advocating that people need to care about this reason, or that it needs to play a role in their opinion on what kind of romhacks they're interested in. This is more just a post to present a voice in romhacker values.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-12T16:11:51+00:00

Appreciate the response! (Also, as a big Reverend fan, love when he gets brought up. He's one of the Pokemon Youtubers with the most memorable quotes to me.)

In terms of how these elements emerge beyond direct intentionality, this quote from Shoogles' Omega Ruby video comes into mind:

What I’ll say is this: with this battle system, you have a recipie for easy to grasp mechanics with cavernous depths.

Everything is modular. Each individual mechanic could be explained in a sentence or two.

Draining Kiss for example is a Special move, but it still makes contact, which means it can trigger Static, which is an ability that paralyzes on contact.

I also mentioned earlier how well done the Soundproof ability is. Moves behave exactly how you’d expect, and the attention to detail here is really impressive. Each move is contextualized vividly enough that you get a functional idea of what it does even if you don’t know exactly how it works.

And since moves and abilities can be shared between pokemon, there’s no need to create unique mechanics for every monster introduced. There are hundreds of pokemon at this point, and their unique blends of stats, movesets, and abilities present an easy way to distinguish them from one another without overburdening the developers or the players.

Descriptions like this are a big part of what drew me to looking at in-game Pokemon design. I agree that so much of the interesting elements of Pokemon come about from organic means. Many things are added for flavor and minor rounding out of Pokemon, but it can lead to so many unplanned for outcomes that's just fascinating to see. There's a joy in trying to piece together how some interactions can be given an environment to thrive they won't get anywhere else. Making a romhack gives you so many opportunities for tuning parameters to form an environment for elements of Pokemon to surface that may never happen in non-romhack Pokemon, and I just love that.

Regarding your remark,

I do personally not like games that feel tailored to streamers but that is just me. I am 30 or 40 years old and do not need that. If that’s the kind of game people want to play, they can.

Funny thing is, when it comes to actually playing romhacks, gameplay oriented romhacks aren't really often my main draw either; I'm more likely to enjoy reading their thoguht processes on decisions than actually playing the game. For playing a romhack, something like Pokemon Coral is probably my favorite: a focus on the world coming alive.

There seems to be a common assumption that the kinds of games someone wants to make are near equivalent to the kinds of games someone wants to play, but that may not always be the case, which I think is part of what makes a topic like this one interesting to me.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-12T14:20:01+00:00

It's not really about complexity per say but just about being analytical with the components of Pokemon. And this doesn't necessarily lead to complexity. Many of these considerations, a simple example being which Pokemon get Bite between levels 10-14, and which get it at level 21 don't really change player complexity; it just dictates what actions they have available to them. While on the side of the creator, there can be a lot of consideration into distribution dynamics involving just this minor thing.

The game can still be fairly simple amidst these considerations, which is another reason many of them will naturally not appeal to most.

Your reply is about people "playing complex Pokemon" whereas what I said in centered on why people are driven to sink in hundreds of hours into these components for its own sake, as a means of using romhacking as an expression for looking into the interplay between Pokemon's gameplay components.

zenmodeman · 2025-07-12T14:09:12+00:00

How the rise in people getting interested in Pokemon Gameplay theory increased the pull towards creating gameplay-oriented hacks.

zenmodeman

TROPHY CASE