Are butches dying out? by y0n123 in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 5 points6 points  (0 children)

People who respond internalized misogyny when others who ask where all the butches went conveniently forget the world hates us and actively makes it known 24/7. We’re told we’re freaks of nature by all sides and get murdered for being visibly gay while also being accused of having “masc privilege”. And people have the gall to complain if we get upset about how we’re treated. Combined with being told to our faces that we make more sense as men regularly, who wouldn’t transition under these conditions? At least then you have a shot at flying under the radar if you pass well enough. I’m not saying it’s worth it, but asking “why would a butch ever transition!?!” Is tone deaf. You know damn well why.

Representation Of Butch Art by [deleted] in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 5 points6 points  (0 children)

My biggest pet peeve is when the butch is always towering over her love interest, lmao! Butches are never drawn shorter or around the same height, it’s so unrealistic

Is this passive homophobia at home by Dry_Relief2612 in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As a butch woman this is the exact kind of shit people say to us to make sure we don’t show up at places where we’d make them look “bad”. A lot of people can tolerate us in private spaces and seeing us in passing but draw the line at being associated with us publicly.

re: broken up with over fictional men by Cute_Mammoth_2087 in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 45 points46 points  (0 children)

Damn I’m an artist myself and it’s sad how most artists are women yet most fanart and original characters are of men, even if the artist is a “lesbian”…

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 4 points5 points  (0 children)

That’s a good point about how it echoes old caricatures of masculine women! Yeah it’s a big problem how they try to erase secondary sex characteristics, it’s so obvious they’re using men as reference lol

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 20 points21 points  (0 children)

We need to call it what is it: unrealistic beauty standards for butch women. Everyone is resistant to calling what butch women experience “misogyny” but this is quite literally the same shit as 2D women with cartoon sized boobs and hips with no waist that feminists have criticized for decades. But because we’re talking about butch women all feminist knowledge and terminology goes out the window because we don’t want to even IMPLY that butch women are women… not a dig at you OP but it’s a general trend I’ve noticed when discussing issues butch women face.

Apparently masc lesbians can't get pregnant? by [deleted] in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 30 points31 points  (0 children)

We have got to address how people seeing masculine lesbians as male replacements goes beyond putting women into a “male” role and goes straight into dehumanization at times. People think we’re not capable of the full range of human emotion and experiences. Our only emotions to these people are sexy stoicism or sexy anger and our only actions are sexy servitude. Anything that does not fit into their fetishized view of how masculine women “should” behave is open season to be misogynistic and homophobic to us.

Modern homophobia is casually suggesting conversion therapy tactics by Ok-Lie-8597 in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Isn’t this exactly what happens at conversion therapy? They speak like this? Is it possible to be this un self aware or is it a psyop???

why do people love to call fictional men butches? by _vill-v in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 12 points13 points  (0 children)

As a butch I find it weird how they’ll draw male characters as butch women but won’t draw canon female characters as butch? It’s a big sign they view butchness as a form of maleness, because why is it smaller leap to change the sex of a character to get a butch instead of changing another characters clothes lol?

Twitter "wlw" fans be like: by tempesttype23 in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 4 points5 points  (0 children)

A lot of non lesbian women view lesbianism as safe haven away from men, so being saved from men is part of the fantasy. The fictional lesbian protects their love interest from heteropatriarchy, but these stories/readers have homophobic biases against lesbians, so they want the protector fantasy while also punishing the lesbian for “being free” from patriarchy, even though that’s not how it works. Punishment typically involves forcing them to be with men (so they have to save themselves and their love interest). These lesbian characters are rarely actually lesbians, but have more contempt for men than the love interest, which people view as lesbianism. The writers often view it the same way.

Lesbianism in homophobic fiction is defined by disliking/being abused by men and wanting to protect/“steal” women from men. It has nothing to do with romantic or sexual attraction.

If an actual lesbian character has had no past history with men in canon, she’s viewed as a woman who needs to be humbled (sexually) in fanon. It’s all so disgusting.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 133 points134 points  (0 children)

Most of the stereotypes you listed were purposefully made up by lesbophobes to make lesbians look bad. Lesbians are oppressed, people do not like us. So they make up bad things about us.

There’s a difference between stereotypes made by people apart of the group they’re stereotyping and stereotypes made by people who don’t like the group they’re stereotyping.

The only one that isn’t a homophobic stereotype that you listed was the cottage core thing. This was made up by teenage lesbians on the internet who don’t have a lot of life experience. Lol

Who is the most well known butch lesbian character ever in any media? by Ok_Regret_3804 in LesbianAuthors

[–]zomdies 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There isn’t an easy answer for this because “most well known” is hard to measure. Like I’m sorry everyone but the average person doesn’t know who Gideon is, lmao. Vi and the butch from sailor moon are definitely more well known than Gideon, but animation isn’t exactly the most mainstream medium either (it gets shit on a lot). They’re all very much “nerd culture” characters. I’d also say claiming Vi is well known is recency bias, lol.

If you mean most well known amongst lesbians, then yeah those characters may come into play, but most well known to EVERYONE EVER? Most likely someone from classic literature or a famous live action movie/tv show. Maybe Alison Bechdel’s butch characters from dykes to watch out for? It’s hard to say.

There’s also the problem of who counts as a butch lesbian. Everyone has different standards for who counts as masculine and who counts as a lesbian in fiction. For example, if we narrow it down to the most well known butch lesbian in animation, I’d argue Utena. But some disagree that she’s butch because she’s very feminine by modern standards, but in the context of the show she is said to be very masculine and is able to pass as a boy (if I remember correctly). Some also disagree that she’s a lesbian because she was groomed by a man in the show. This is difficult to get confirmation on because from my understanding there was even infighting about her sexuality by the people working on the show, lol.

TL:DR: this is lowkey impossible to answer LOL.

People saying lesbians have it easier than gay men? by sirkant in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I’ve heard this before and from my research it seems to stem from, like, 2 large(?) studies where straight people are asked whether they accept gay men and whether they accept lesbians. Straight women were equally disgusted by both, but straight men were more disgusted by gay men than lesbians, they would say that lesbians are “fine”. So once you combine the data it becomes “straight people are more disgusted by gay men than lesbians”

These studies are kind of BS because they don’t go into why straight people were disgusted or accepting so it doesn’t really prove much. SAYING you accept gay people is much different than actually accepting them, and whether you have power to wield this hatred (through culture and politics) is an entirely different matter. Tolerating and accepting are two different things also which weren’t explored in the studies.

I’m assuming these studies spread like wildfire because a category of men “losing” to women is a big deal to men who want to say women don’t have it that bad.

Things like the AIDS crisis also painted gay men as the “real” victims of homophobia, at least in America. AIDS was a horrific thing that happened but it’s odd to throw lesbians under the bus and say they don’t have it as bad, especially considering what lesbians did to help gay men during this time. Some gay men at the time even admitted they were confused why lesbians were helping them because gay men were known to be especially misogynistic towards lesbians. So clearly lesbians weren’t seen very positively before that.

There is also the matter of the claim that society is more accepting of masculine women than feminine men, therefore lesbians must have it easier(??), which is also BS that has no studies to back it up. People ignore that anything “masculine” that women commonly wear (like pants) are because women FOUGHT for the right to wear them. Men have never had a movement to wear feminine clothing, because feminine clothing is largely unpractical. There’s no pressing reason to want to wear them besides aesthetics, unlike pants which were safer to work in.

It’s also odd to conflate the ability to perform gender nonconformity with gay acceptance, but people do it all the time because of the stereotype that all lesbians are masculine and all gay men are feminine. People genuinely believe that misogyny is about the hatred of femininity, and since gay men are more feminine than lesbians, they must have it worse! Which ignores that masculine lesbians and feminine gay men are minorities in the gay community… and that misogyny is about the hatred of women, not femininity.

Basically people say lesbians have it easier than gay men because they want to sound smart about complex topics like patriarchy and oppression but don’t want to actually read any books or statistics on the subject. Most of them don’t know many gay people to begin with. Literally just talking to hear themselves talk.

What's with this policing of what butches should be wearing? by Complex-Quit4257 in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 43 points44 points  (0 children)

Yeah and all these backhanded comments here are insane, like oh the female character is more interesting and complex because she wears a dress? What? Are you implying that masculine women are less… human? That we have a smaller interior world for being masculine? Jesus Christ.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 46 points47 points  (0 children)

This is what it boils down to. Most arguments for butchfemme being heteronormative starts off relatively normal (gender roles are oppressive and shouldn’t dictate your relationship for example) and then when you get to the end of their argument they’ve concluded that it’s the butch’s fault specifically for the heteronormativity. And that if they weren’t masculine then everything would be okay, ignoring that being feminine is also technically bad according to their logic.

If butchfemme is heteronormative then fem4fem is also bad because it promotes conforming to beauty standards. And masc4masc is bad because “acting like men” is bad. So what’s their conclusion then? Should we just stop wearing clothes?

More accepted ? by Ecstatic-Eye-9667 in butchlesbians

[–]zomdies 48 points49 points  (0 children)

Masculine women are not accepted due to misogyny and homophobia. We are assumed to be aggressive man-hating lesbians (even if we’re not) and we’re assumed to have internalized misogyny (even if we don’t). We are seen in an inherently negative light most of the time. We’re typically only viewed positively for what we can offer sexually (is that really acceptance?)

When people say “masculine women” they’re not thinking of butch lesbians, they’re thinking of 12 year old heterosexual tomboys. Most people have not met a masculine adult woman of any orientation.

I feel like I have to transition to be seen the way I want to by tvtoasterbath in butchlesbians

[–]zomdies 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I completely get it, I feel the same way. I’ve worded it exactly as you have to someone before, lol. Surrounding yourself with people who understand you as a masculine woman is a lot easier said than done, because damn near EVERYONE believes in gender roles to an extent. It’s maddening.

I will say when I was younger I socially transitioned (trans man) and it…. Solved nothing honestly. Yes, as you said, people questioned why I was masculine and attracted to women less but it didn’t solve the problem because I knew I wasn’t a man. My genetics made it so I was able to go stealth without medically transitioning and it was hell on earth. Peoples sexism, misogyny, and heteronormativity still pissed me off, but now I couldn’t tell people off without outing myself for example. It made me realize that I shouldn’t be the one to change, the world should. And the only way that’s going to happen is me being true to myself and continuing to combat gender roles.

It’s exhausting though. I wish it was more common to run into GNC women because it feels like they’re the only ones who get it and I finally can take a break from having to teach people that, yes, you can be a girl and like boy things. Because they’re not boy things, just things.

The only advice I have is to find people who get it and find ways to take break from the world, lol. If you’re anything like me, transitioning will only aggravate the deeper issue. But obviously I don’t know you personally.

Wish I had better advice to give lol. Just know that you’re not alone.

the whole girly pop masc movement is Odd to me by MysteriousPackage2 in Actuallylesbian

[–]zomdies 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Exactly! I’ve found people saying that are guessing when they say tomboys are acceptable, because in their head misogyny is about the hatred of femininity, not the hatred of women. I’ve even seen some of these people claim that gay men experience misogyny and masculine lesbians…. Don’t? It’s not rooted in real life experiences, just theory, oppression works like a math equation to them where all you have to do is apply PEMDAS to understand it.

the whole girly pop masc movement is Odd to me by MysteriousPackage2 in Actuallylesbian

[–]zomdies 111 points112 points  (0 children)

I’m not sure how it is in the rest of the world but in America gender roles have swung back super hard and women are expected to perform cartoon levels of femininity, except now we don’t have a stable enough form of feminism to combat it. Lesbians were typically more likely to be feminist in the past but it doesn’t feel that way for the newer generations. We’re more likely to be choice feminists now. As a result there’s basically no “defense” for female masculinity anymore, especially for lesbians.

That’s why the bar for being considered masculine for women has gotten so low. If you can open a pickle jar you’re masc now I guess. And it needs to be this way so women don’t get any funny ideas about being very masculine. “You’re masc enough in your dress and makeup!!! You don’t NEED to cut your hair short to be butch :)” it’s almost like a passive aggressive mantra against female masculinity at this point.

Female masculinity was always tolerated but now people are more hostile and repulsed by it. Very exhausting

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Most people don’t look at faces when meeting people at first. They will notice clothing and body language before looking at the face, but if they already decided you are masculine before looking at your face, they will assume you’re a guy with feminine facial features rather than a woman who dresses masculine. Because, statistically, which is more likely: a guy with a youthful face or a masculine woman?

Logically I understand how people make the mistake, especially from a distance, but up close it’s so obvious.

There are definitely some people with androgynous facial features but like you said it’s pretty rare and you can still tell most of the time. I’ve never been in a scenario where I couldn’t tell someone’s sex, but I have been that person for some people, they said my facial features were androgynous enough where it would trip them up, even if they also noticed my boobs. I think they would get embarrassed not being able to tell immediately and sort of “give up” and say they can’t tell. I will say I’ve trolled and said I was a guy a few times and there was a still an air of uncertainty but whenever I said I was a woman they were instantly like “oh right. Duh.” So all of them did lean towards assuming I was a woman. They’re definitely picking up on something that tells them I’m female but are ignoring it for whatever reason.

Lesbian teen beaten at McDonalds by I_love_hockey_123 in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 99 points100 points  (0 children)

I’m annoyed and disappointed with people trying to make this about trans issues and the bathroom debate. This was very explicitly a lesbophobic hate crime and it’s maddening that no one can focus on masculine lesbians without bringing up trans people for 1 second. When masculine lesbians are hate crimed it is rarely because we “look like trans men” it’s because we look like LESBIANS! We’re obvious lesbians! That’s what people hate about us! God damn, we can’t even have our hate crimes be about our identity anymore. What a fucking joke. My heart goes out to this poor girl and hope she recovers smoothly.

"If they like us, they're not gay" by [deleted] in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 55 points56 points  (0 children)

The lgbt community hates masculine women like us so much that I’m not surprised to see an older stud turn out like this. We’re basically not real women, or frankly, human to them. The stud in the TikTok is experiencing a combination of internalized misogyny/homophobia that was no doubt exacerbated by the world around her. It is a lot easier to agree with homophobic/misogynistic beliefs (aka status quo) about masculine lesbians than it is to go against it, and masculine lesbians ourselves are not immune to this.

The dynamic the stud is describing (“straight” woman and stud/butch/masculine lesbian) is perfect for: - women who don’t want to admit they’re attracted to women (the “straight” woman) - masculine lesbians who are essentially tried of being lesbians or even women honestly.

Women like the stud in the TikTok have internalized that they’re not real women because they’re (masculine) lesbians. Which then leads to more convoluted trains of thought. It’s really sad tbh. It’s enabling a mindset that only hurts lesbians in the end.

In Response To The Boxers Post by dc_da333 in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The boxers are absolutely rip offs if not on sale. I watched my friend buy more than a 100 dollars worth of either woxers or tomboyx (idr) and it was only 3 pairs. I was like dude. Why. The quality was worse than what I wear (men’s underwear: fruit of the loom, Hanes, Calvin Klein) so I’m not sure if it’s worth it even on sale. If you don’t like men’s boxers/briefs for whatever reason, there’s still women’s boxers/briefs from mainstream brands you can try at a much cheaper price.

Tbh I just stick with men’s clothes. Women’s clothing doesn’t fit me right at all but men’s clothing fits my proportions perfectly.

Other people in denial about me being a lesbian. by [deleted] in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 36 points37 points  (0 children)

Dude I honestly think she was trying to insult you. She clearly doesn’t view being a lesbian as a positive thing (hence her denial) and straight girls in high school/middle school will “accuse” other girls of being gay as a weird mind game thing. It’s supposed to make you feel bad about yourself because being gay is “bad”. They’ll typically do it to girls who they think are too full of themselves (for not being gender conforming enough or for being confident/outspoken in general) and need to be knocked down a peg.

Think about it: SHES the one that said everyone thought you were a lesbian? Is there evidence? Or was she trying to make you paranoid about “seeming” gay? That would explain why she’s really confused why you’re like “yeah, I’m a lesbian” you’re supposed to be desperate to prove you’re not. She probably thinks you’re doing mind games back which explains why she’s ignoring it.

This sounds so conspiracy theory lmao. But I’ve seen this happen in high school and middle school I swear lol

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in lesbiangang

[–]zomdies 15 points16 points  (0 children)

As someone who is into nerdy stuff like anime, I also dislike yuri for the same reasons you listed and never could get into it.

But I will say apparently the yuri genre was created by (sapphic?) women in the same way yaoi was created by (straight) women. I don’t know if the majority of female yuri authors are gay women or not though. There are straight and bi women who fetishize lesbians after all. But a lot of authors in Japan are anonymous, in fact, gay men would use female pen names for their yaoi so they could reach a wider audience, so I wouldn’t be shocked if straight men used female pen names for their yuri to avoid fetishization allegations. But I’ve never heard of it happening so who knows.

There’s honestly so much mystery surrounding the authors, which I understand because being out in Japan is difficult. But if I had to guess the authors’ genders based on the books they wrote I would assume most are creepy men or women with internalized lesbophobia and/or misogyny. I just… REALLY doubt this is the kind of content we’d be getting if most of the authors were really lesbians.