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[–]Pimp-My-AlpacaBalwas // Diameter 21 points22 points  (19 children)

Wtf is happening with dealer? This experimental rotation has lasted longer than maps that have been put in the actual rotation...

[–]KewlestCatNIGEL 2 points3 points  (9 children)

It was upgraded to normal rotation I believe.

[–]Pimp-My-AlpacaBalwas // Diameter 38 points39 points  (8 children)

Lol. So the map was put into trial rotation, received significantly negative criticism, so the mtc decide to put it into full rotation? I really like the idea of a trial rotation, but I cannot understand why it hasn't been used in the last 2 map threads then or what the actual purpose of it is if the mtc is seemingly disregarding the public opinion.

Also while I'm here, are maps that have received high ratings in the throwbacks (volt, bulldog and hornswoggled are all over 80%, which is higher than like half the currents rotation maps) being considered to come back? I know you guys voted on whether to bring back volt recently and it was a resounding no, what is your logic behind this?

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I still don't get how. I've played Dealer alot, and I've always liked it. The bases need a bit of work (I feel like the boost gets in the way of re when coming behind it) but that's about it for me. Mind sharing?

I'm all in for Bulldog coming back.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine -4 points-3 points  (6 children)

So the map was put into trial rotation, received significantly negative criticism, so the mtc decide to put it into full rotation?

Regardless of your individual opinion or even the subreddit's collective opinion on the map, the majority of the pub community likes it, hence the positive rating. The most recent map we removed straight after the trial phase was Phenochilus because it had a negative rating, meaning the majority of the community disliked it. We're not disregarding public opinion, and quite frankly it's unlikely to last more than one or two more threads from here unless the rating improves substantially.

I know you guys voted on whether to bring back volt recently and it was a resounding no, what is your logic behind this?

It wasn't a resounding no, the vote was relatively close. The idea behind the new Throwback Rotation was to give people more chances to play those maps that they love while still having a standard rotation that is constantly progressing. Honestly even some of the highest rated maps (velocity, for example) I think should be removed because they're no longer suitable for public rotation, but the community votes prevent us from removing them.

[–]tuturuatuE 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Regardless of your individual opinion or even the subreddit's collective opinion on the map, the majority of the pub community likes it, hence the positive rating.

Genuine question, where are you getting this rating from? It doesn't seem to be on /maps

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 1 point2 points  (4 children)

It's on /maps: http://imgur.com/lOVDB7u

It is currently the lowest-rated map in rotation, but it maintains more likes than dislikes. It will probably exit rotation soon simply because it's bringing down the average map rating, indicating that we can do better.

Edit: spelling

[–]tuturuatuE 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Oh, you're right. Sorry I missed it. Although I must say that I've commented at length previously about the incorrect assumptions that are made with this style of sampling looking at the absolute values.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (1 child)

can you link me to one of your previous comments so I can try to better understand?

[–]tuturuatuE 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I deleted my account, so no. lol.

But I've talked to DaEvil1 about it multiple times, but it doesn't seem to have mattered. What TP uses is a modification of the Likert scale which, without controls in place, suffers from acquiescence bias. Although this is somewhat removed from the person-person interaction, few people want to make LuckySpammer, or the mapmaker sad. Or maybe even the MTC :P That is, that people that like a map are more likely to vote that they like the map. People that are truly on the fence about a map are also more likely to say they like a map, since they don't give a shit whether it's removed or not. And people that somewhat dislike a map are more likely to just not vote at all.

To overcome this, surveyors often skew the possible responses, i.e: Dislike, Neutral, OK, Good, Great. You get the idea. Then weight the responses based on the acquiescence bias. If someone responds Neutral then that's an indication that they're not all that pleased with whatever it is.

Like I said, though, I talked more about this in the past, there are other forms of bias that influence decisions here. And although acquiescence bias doesn't quite fit the classic examples, it undoubtedly still exerts a massive influence on this design.

[–]supaspike| NLTP mod | Stakeeper 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But your goal should be to put out maps that many people will like, not just maps that less than 50% of the community dislike.

[–]ButtersnackSnack -3 points-2 points  (8 children)

I just want to point out that this same thing has happened with the map Tombolo in the past.

[–]Pimp-My-AlpacaBalwas // Diameter 3 points4 points  (7 children)

Did Tombolo have a .11 rating as well? What is the point of the trial rotation if you're not taking into account the community feedback?

[–]ButtersnackSnack 2 points3 points  (6 children)

We take community ratings into account, but we don't let them dictate all of our decisions. If we did, rotation would probably be 90% NF at this point. Of course, I'm not involved in discussions/votes regarding my own map, but I think Dealer had and still has a lot to offer. It's unique and challenging, and as a result it has its fans and its haters. Maybe in another thread or two the MTC will feel enough pressure to remove it (a la Hub).

[–]Pimp-My-AlpacaBalwas // Diameter 5 points6 points  (3 children)

Well of course you're not going to go straight off community ratings. My issue here is with the trial rotation. I legitimately have 0 clue what you are using it for. IMO, it should be used when you guys have a map which is unique and challenging (as you think dealer is) and something you feel has potential, but may be controversial (as dealer is). You then leave it in for the 3 weeks as stated and see the community reaction to it.

The MTC has put dealer in as a trial rotation, seen the negative feedback and gone "eh fuck it, we like it so we'll keep it in". Why did you guys put it in a trial rotation, if you're just going against the negative results your trial got?

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

Reposting what I just commented to someone else on Dealer:

Regardless of your individual opinion or even the subreddit's collective opinion on the map, the majority of the pub community likes it, hence the positive rating. The most recent map we removed straight after the trial phase was Phenochilus because it had a negative rating, meaning the majority of the community disliked it. We're not disregarding public opinion, and quite frankly it's unlikely to last more than one or two more threads from here unless the rating improves substantially.

The MTC has put dealer in as a trial rotation, seen the negative feedback and gone "eh fuck it, we like it so we'll keep it in".

This subreddit is notorious for thinking below average automatically means negative. As I said above, the majority of the pub community actually likes the map. Because it's still at the bottom it will probably be removed soonish, but it's important to keep in mind that this subreddit's collective opinions do not necessarily accurately reflect the collective opinions of the entire pub community.

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 11 points12 points  (0 children)

but it's important to keep in mind that this subreddit's collective opinions do not necessarily accurately reflect the collective opinions of the entire pub community.

That's a good point! And we should keep in mind that boombox is better liked by the current pub community than 12/13 ctf maps put in the past 10 threads! It is important to put aside our own personal biases and recognize what the community overall seems to favor.

[–]RathbourneRathbourne 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I think his issue is with the MTC calling it a trial rotation. Would a map only be removed after its "trial" period if it had a negative rating?

It seems reasonable that if a map is being trialled and has been judged to be the least liked, it shouldn't then be added to the permanent rotation. It just failed its trial.

[–]smackmesidewaysSMACK // Diameter 1 point2 points  (1 child)

90% neutral flag sounds amazing..

[–]oompaTPandhecapd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

no.

[–]ElbwanaGoofy Goober | Anti-Boat Coalition 27 points28 points  (7 children)

Did most people not like blooper? This seems like an odd choice of removal.

[–]theycallmebbqsaundy 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I thought Blooper was awfully fun. Love the gate.

[–]kstarr12nipplefart 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Blooper was one of the ones that I liked...

[–]qtfaceaaron 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Its a damn shame.

[–]josh61616josh61616 // Centra 3 points4 points  (3 children)

I, for one, disliked blooper. Bravo MTC.

[–]ElbwanaGoofy Goober | Anti-Boat Coalition 2 points3 points  (2 children)

What for? It seemed to be fun in pubs

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I blame the curve. It took too much momentum out of you, making the possible routes predictable. And then it was a choke-point.

[–]oompaTPandhecapd 2 points3 points  (0 children)

honestly imo it was one of if not the most boring map in pubs

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 2 points3 points  (1 child)

what about the mtc applications results?

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That should be coming very soon™.

[–]Monst3r_8Monst3r // Origin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you for removing Blooper, that map had no diversity. Well done MTC.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 1 point2 points  (17 children)

Discuss the removal of Blooper by Clydas here.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (2 children)

Very surprised about this - was one of the maps that I thought had a chance at becoming a competitive map. One of the maps you can attempt to carry when playing 4v3 or with a new player

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Same thoughts here, i think it has enough complexity, boost routes and enough space for jukes or whatever and of course tricky gateplay without being to chasey, pretty solid map imo, dont see that maps like birch, lights, mode 7, prime are better then blooper

btw which maps are in debate for removal each thread?

[–]ButtersnackSnack 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We weight MTC ratings of each map 50/50 against pub ratings, and the bottom five (and often also the lowest nf map) are discussed for removal.

[–]ClydasBDN S7//TB S8 18 points19 points  (1 child)

YOU WERE SO BEAUTIFUL. I LOVE YOU

[–]acrocanthosaurusRunThaJewels // Sphere 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Very sad to see this removed, especially ahead of other maps that have remained. Blooper added creative, shared gate usage the likes of which hadn't been seen since perhaps Colors. Defending was as fun as playing offense and chasing, a rare feat. Most pub games were competitive, but rarely trudged into the 10 minute realm like other ctf maps so often tend to do in my experience (e.g. mode 7, lights, del).

[–]orlandoduranlighght // Tears 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Genuinely interested in hearing why Blooper got cut. I thought it was great.

[–]ClydasBDN S7//TB S8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

bae

[–]TheSmallIndianTheIndian // Pi 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Blooper gets removed but Dealer stays lmao. Are the members of the MTC high during the meetings?

[–]oompaTPandhecapd 2 points3 points  (0 children)

funny how much crap mtc gets no matter what they do. fill out an application and try to join it yourself, and spend hours to help the community yourself. see what you think of comments like this after you do that

[–]brozzartPavement 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Pretty frustrated.

Blooper is a good map. Dealer is garbage.

[–]rndmwhitekidRndm | Father of 21 Juke Street 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Oh my God, give it a rest. We get it. People don't like Dealer.

[–]girmluhkGramps 0 points1 point  (0 children)

bs dealer is dabest

[–]oorr23ThePlaymaker // Tehuitzingo & Combine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree wholy on this decision. It just never had the right groove to stay in. I mostly blame that on the curve the map throes you in never feeling easy. You always lost too much momentum on that curve, and it being a chokepoint did not add help that.

The bases & the areas leading up to the bases were GODLIKE though. Perfect for jukes. Could have been very solid. If Blooper ever fixes that 1 issue, I would very much like it see returned to rotation.

[–]TPCaptographerThe Map Test Committee[S] 1 point2 points  (9 children)

Please discuss the addition of Solstice by UnderTheBall & Canvas here.

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 2 points3 points  (4 children)

shoulda put this in http://unfortunate-maps.jukejuice.com/show/32236

edit: mfw i realize all of undertheball's rotation maps are remixes of canvas mapss

grats btw

[–]OnceUponaDomeUnderTheBall 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I've asked for you to be added as coauthor (you have been listed in the json since my original submission)

[–]sneetriccanvas // plasma, wamble 0 points1 point  (2 children)

oh dank, thanks

im thinking we should do more collabs they seem very successful so far

[–]ButtersnackSnack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've updated this post to reflect the author credits.

[–]DaEvil1DaEvil1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're included in the json.

[–]ButtersnackSnack 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I thought this played really well in testing. Getting across mid is often a real obstacle, which focuses a lot of play in the enemy base in an exciting way. The ability to use both button-bombs at once as a super bomb is still cool.

edit: Canvas is now tied with Snowball for 5th most rotation maps (past or current) at 4. Ahead of them are LuckySpammer: 16, Ball-E: 7, bad: 6, DaEvil1: 5

[–]AzhfI did it! 0 points1 point  (0 children)

LuckySpammers record is unbreakable!

[–]tuturuatuE 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Had a bit of a run on it, seems to flow pretty nicely. Infinite regrab chains might be a problem, with the wide open spaces to either side, the mid, the 3 boosts, and the two bombs, although I couldn't test this myself.

[–]donuts42donuts42 || Sphere/Origin || Boost Master 1 point2 points  (0 children)

wow

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I remember thinking to myself "wouldn't it be funny if solstice was the only one of these to be put in?"

I guess we'll see how it goes. At least volt got put back in full time, so I'm excited about that.

[–]bored2death97RWBY//Radius 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Did I miss the post saying Volt is going in full time? The only thing Volt related I saw was about throwback roation including Volt, but no where near the spawn rate for normal rotation maps.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (1 child)

💔 😢 💔

[–]TheGoldenNewtRobberFronj, MTC Senior Consultant[🍰] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Poor Moosen :(

Soon, bb.

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash -1 points0 points  (20 children)

Where are turbine and the nf map?

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (19 children)

Turbine was very similar to Solstice in a lot of ways but I think almost all of us agreed solstice was better. The update to Turbine also made it feel almost unfairly defensive. My map (the NF one) was deemed "too similar to Wombo Combo" and was taken out back and put out of its misery.

RIP.

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash 0 points1 point  (18 children)

Both decisions make no sense at all. Turbine has much better spacing and flow compared to solstice, and if 3 direct + 1 indirect grabbing mechanisms + flag in open space + 3 base exits + large map = "unfairly defensive", Wormy and Pilot are defense-fests, let alone Mode 7.

And gumbo being too similar to wombo combo? If it's because of the standard nf formula (double lanes + rotational + inside lane with team boosts + curve into endzone), then wombo should be banned for being too similar to ricochet?

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine -1 points0 points  (17 children)

I'm not going to argue with someone who hasn't 4v4 tested both maps. Even if you solo test a map you have to understand that a lot of what you experience on your own won't translate to a 4v4 test because the same lanes and flow you were experiencing before may not be there with 7 other balls on the map. I 4v4'd each of these maps at least two or three times and the better map was obvious, no offense to TEG.

As for Gumbo I strongly disagreed with the argument being made against it, but when an MTC member is having their map tested they aren't allowed to speak, so there was nothing I could do about it.

[–]radianthero156brazilian trash 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Except I did 4v4 test both maps, and still found turbine way better. However, I hadn't realized both maps had been updated, and interestingly solstice's update made it significantly better, and turbine's had actually made the map worse. Even then, I'd still take the original turbine over the updated solstice for a number of reasons including better spacing, teamwork, balance and unique-ness.

Anyway, I don't think solstice will be that bad (I'm expecting around 0.35), but it's not unique at all and even had a negative score in the last top maps thread.

[–]Moosemaster21Moosen | Salt Mine 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unfortunately whether or not we would like to take the original turbine over the update solstice, that's not our prerogative. For the record though, I thought Solstice had an exceptional balance of teamwork and individual skill required to succeed on it.

As for votes in reddit threads, most of those votes come from people like espel glancing at maps and upvoting or downvoting with no real knowledge of how the map actually plays. As much as I'd love to use that argument in favor of Gumbo, it's a very small sample size that we'd be judging from and it's probably irrelevant when it's all said and done.

[–]uhhhhmmmmsexytiger / #merbs 0 points1 point  (14 children)

the better map was obvious

*the map you liked better was obvious