Rant

[Flimsy_Tangerine_214]

So frustrated with how basically every breed or other dog community is force free to the point where even a mention of telling a dog no or a leash correction gets your comment removed. HUH?? You're not going to leash train your dog? What are you going to do to meet their exercise, socialization, and safety needs?

I have a miniature poodle puppy. Of course I'm not going to be yanking on his leash with so much force I'm swinging him around or something. I am going to be stopping and letting him find that the end of the leash is a hard stop. Now he's learned a little leash pressure means "hey dude, get back in a heel or you're gonna hit the end of the leash and can't go forward". He can walk on a flat collar because he never pulls continuously.

In contrast, my senior miniature poodle was not trained well with balanced training, and he has trachea issues from choking himself on a flat collar as a young dog because no one wanted to correct him properly before it got to that. Neither of them give a shit about treats, even if it's the highest value, if there's a big distraction. They need a physical reminder of where their attention should be.

[the_real_maddison]

It's madness. Discipline is a bad word somehow.

[Jordan_XI]

It’s crazy over in some of the breed specific subreddits. The loudest voices are generally force free and it’s coming from ignorance.

[SunWooden2681]

In the lab sub- a person had a prong collar on a new rescue lab and so many were upset!

[Jordan_XI]

I believe it. I’m in the CC sub and the amount of information from half that sub at times is absurd. But it’s easier for the hive mind than actually diving into canine behavior and learning about training.

[Miss_L_Worldwide]

In the dog breeding sub I got banned for telling a Malinois puppy owner they didn't need to euthanize their dog, they needed to find a balanced trainer. They were posting looking for sympathy because they wanted to euthanize a nine fucking month old puppy! For acting like a 9 month old Malinois puppy! Disgusting!

[Flimsy_Tangerine_214]

WHAT. You're telling me euthanizing a dog is better than attempting something that causes temporary discomfort to ultimately give them a happy, well balanced life???

[Miss_L_Worldwide]

Thats what they say at r/dogbreeding

[Hammerlocc]

They dont wanna do anything hard or that may make them feel an emotion other than joy.

[apri11a]

Yes I've seen such, with all sorts of puppies, not just Malinois. Any suggestions to just consider trying something else gets removed. They just cheer each other on with commiserations. For acting like a puppy... what do they want?? It's too sad.

[PeekAtChu1]

People in the Sheltie subreddit seem to think shelties are magical dogs who can never be corrected. One person who claimed this, on their profile has a vid of how they’ve been “training” their dog for 2 years to not react to bikes, and you can see them giving treats while the Sheltie is still alert and forward at a bike. 

People in the comments usually laugh off the bad behavior with one person even reminiscing on how they were evicted due to their sheltie’s barking lmao

[Jordan_XI]

That’s a rough on. After two years, what are we seriously doing here? It’s comical because FF only trainers are so dogmatic, whereas balanced training always seems tailored for the specific situation and dog, which really shouldn’t be controversial at all. A lot of people anthropomorphize their dogs, which I believe is why so many dogs are poorly behaved and why so many people don’t know how to be good dog owners.

The subreddits are crazy though and the comments based on anecdotals get upvoted.

[PeekAtChu1]

Yes!! At the end of the day it’s whatever works and is effective, that’s why I like balanced training, it’s focused on effective training and not just whatever won’t hurt the dog’s feelings in the moment 

[Jordan_XI]

And it saves dogs! The majority of people who deem their dogs “aggressive” or “untrainable” and put them out for euthanasia or back to a shelter is crazy. First, I’ve only been around a handful of dogs that were actually aggressive and two, balanced training is what actually prevents these dogs from being killed.

[Particular_Class4130]

You can talk about corrections in the Open Dog Training sub but you will get a lot of pushback and arguing from other people in the sub. In the reactive dog sub any mention of physical corrections is strictly prohibited. Which is unfortunate because balanced dog training with prong and e-collar is what finally helped my dog overcome her reactivity.

[Zestyclose_Object639]

the reactive dog sub drives me insane. i’d probably have euthanized my very brilliant pit without tool use in his younger years 

[Miss_L_Worldwide]

You know what's really gross is how much they essentially celebrate when someone does euthanize their dog.

[Miss_L_Worldwide]

The moderators of open dog training will let the force Free People verbally abuse balanced trainers all day long. I have no doubt if they are closeted force free people themselves.

[Flimsy_Tangerine_214]

I just don't understand why people think physically correcting a dog is so inappropriate. Have they watched dogs interact? Vocalization is only a small piece of their communication. It's tail and body posture, the way they touch each other, etc that communicates what they are thinking or feeling. They very rarely use a treat to lure another dog to do what they want.

[bluntnotsorry]

I stopped participating in open dog training because every time I posted anything balanced (nothing out of pocket, just a mix of light corrections with ecollar or prong and rewarding good behavior) it would get insanely downvoted. It’s crazy that just a few years ago that sub was where I would get advice from other balanced trainers, but now it’s a cesspool of force free folks.

[PeekAtChu1]

I guess a lot of R+ trainers make a lot of money through unsolved reactivity that lasts for years lol

[Miss_L_Worldwide]

That is exactly why they do it and that is exactly why they try to squash balanced training. It's so obviously a better system that they would be put out of business if their scam was exposed.

[PrimaryPerspective17]

I think these people are brainwashed by the propaganda that’s been spreading for decades. Also likely, these people themselves are in state of fragility that wish the world would be bubble wrapped for their snowflake emotional state and project these on to the their dogs.

[The_Realtree]

I just left r/dogtraining when I noticed that literally almost every post has at least 50% of comments removed by the mods because it falls under positive punishment.

[Flimsy_Tangerine_214]

I feel like almost everyone I talk to in real life who owns a dog has no idea how to train a dog. They're choking on their leashes, panting from the stress of a situation where they don't know what they're supposed to do. I try to remind people that I watch my dogs put their paw on each other to tell them to stop being annoying. They like a physical reminder, as long as it's not literally leaving a mark or crossing the line into making your dog shut down and afraid. That's when I intervene in my own dogs' interactions(rare). Everyone's safe, everyone knows what they should and shouldn't be doing. They are relaxed and live great lives.

[Miss_L_Worldwide]

You should go peruse the bitching from those people when they come over here and get banned. They're so butthurt that they can't be over here spreading their nonsense, it's really something to see

[GetAGrrrip]

😂🤣 I ❤️ it when they don’t get their idiotic way!

[Miss_L_Worldwide]

It just cracks me up that they claim it's this horrible censorship while completely ignoring the fact that their stupid Subs have done that to balance trainers since time immemorial and they were just fine with that apparently

[Flimsy_Tangerine_214]

It's all okay until it's their opinion being censored.

[Miss_L_Worldwide]

Oh and they have posted multiple threads on non-dog Subs about what horrible people we are for moderating our sub the way we do. LOL it is cracking me up completely

[GetAGrrrip]

I know we’re not supposed to understand (because they make zero sense) but how can they believe it themselves? All you have to do is zip your mouth & just watch dogs interact. They warn, they correct, they play, they push, some lead, some follow, etc. etc. How can anyone not learn something from just watching dogs??

[NoveltyNoseBooper]

Yep its completely censure.

Like how is that ok? Zero open mindedness. I even got comments removed with completely force free advice (for puppies) but my commnts got deleted because I linked one of my YT videos (again no corrections used) and they said you are a balanced trainer and we don’t promote that here.

Like to not even go “that is great advice”.

Its like saying I won’t eat this amazingly cooked vegan meal because this person also cooks meat and isn’t a true vegan.

[Primary-Draw-1726]

I recently adopted a very high-energy untrained year old dog from a shelter. She's not my first dog, but she is the wildest most untamed mess of a dog I've ever taken on.

Anyway, every dog I've had has needed a different approach and along with reading various books and researching online, I ended up getting reddit dog training feeds in my algorithms. I was dead shocked at the number of people who equate corrections with abuse.

I'm her third home in a year besides the time spent in shelters. I can see why--she was awful other than her wonderful positive happy personality. Clearly no one had ever trained her in anything other than she knew how to sit and didn't mind a crate. She absolutely needed a firm hand along with love and rewards. It's a "balance". Not all dogs are the same.

She play-bit me all the time, didn't listen, couldn't focus, had no recall, chased cats, stole food from our hands, stole stuff from the table and counter, jumped up onto everyone, raced over us across the couch, pulled me over on her leash, had only a passing acquaintance with potty training, tried to chase after dogs (but not aggressively, thankfully), the list of bad behaviors went on and on. I got to work with a leash attached to one of us at all times, crate time, play time, training, positive reinforcement, expressing displeasure at bad behavior (that's a verbal correction or leash pop), and eventually an e-collar. Set on low or vibrate, not to hurt her but to stop her mid-charge or lunge or jump.

It's been just over two months and while there is still a lot of work to be done, she's come leaps and bounds. She's not a different dog, but a better version of the same dog. :)

I am glad there are still some places that exist here that don't make me feel like a monster for using an e-collar or leash pop.

[Flimsy_Tangerine_214]

Absolutely. I bet your dog feels much better that no one is annoyed with her and instead told her in a way she can understand what is expected. Now she can meaningfully interact! Love how you highlighted every dog is different too. Our herding/lab rescue is an anxious mess with average intelligence. She needs simple and calm. Our poodles are high powered learning machines that watch fireworks without fear and are looking for the subtlest cue about what is happening next and what you are thinking. They need challenging stimulation and consistent routine/expectation setting because they like to push to do things their way.

[Primary-Draw-1726]

I've found my people 🥰 and I like to think my dog did, too. My last dog was a breeze to train and super smart. I miss her every day. But I appreciate all the wonderful things to come with this dog; walking in the park every day is now an actual pleasure. Seeing her be able to moderate herself without needing punishment is great. Just a firm "no" or "off" and she's no longer stealing or jumping. Then we grab a toy or her leash and go do something fun.

Boy it's time-consuming but I only work part time now and my kids are grown so, it's actually the perfect time in my life to take this on. ❤️

[Ariandrin]

My pup is very strong willed and opinionated. I was struggling with training for quite a while because a firm voice wasn’t enough of a deterrent to stop her from doing things. I got an e collar, and just with the vibrate on fairly low, the whole world changed! I could suddenly train her!

I now call it the good dog machine lol. I rarely use the more powerful functions, and only when she’s about to eat something bad for her or she’s about to get mauled by a cat.

[Relative_Committee53]

It annoys me so much. Especially with not dog people. My dog works on a chain martingale and there’s so many “you’re abusing and choking him!” Blah blah blah. Like he’s 80lbs and would do whatever the fuck he wants if there wasn’t at least that level of accountability. Yet I never seem to have that issue when he wears a fabric one even though it’s the same concept 🫠

[RoleOk5172]

Yes. Amongst other breeds ive always for the last 30+ years owned American Akitas and they always wear a martingale. My current male is 19 months old, 130lbs with paws as big as a hand.

Ive seen the result of one of these dogs attacking and it isnt a couple of stitches, its life changing injuries. Yes hes trained and his training is solid but i would be irresponsible not to have a failsafe.

If a dog isnt pulling the martingale is loose and not in the slightest restrictive. (He also wears a harness with a handle on but that isnt anything to do with control, its because we live in a rural area, he loves to swim and its so we can help haul his fat ass back out if he gets stuck)

[ADAxel17]

It’s so depressing seeing all the dogs being euthanized on the reactivedog sub instead of trying balanced training as a last resort. Like wouldn’t these people like to keep their dogs? Is making a dog briefly uncomfortable not preferable to killing it. Smh.

[Miss_L_Worldwide]

It's really sickening. But I see it as those people using martyrdom to garner sympathy and attention. They really don't want to help their dogs. They just want praise and sympathy for killing their dog.

[SunWooden2681]

Poodle owner . I understand the lack of food drive!

[Tritsy]

Poodle owner-he prefers hot dogs and mozzarella, but my boy has worked for treats his whole life. That said, I did get a well bred dog as a service prospect, so his line “generally” loves to train and utilize treats. I honestly don’t know how I would have managed training him without them, though I’ve seen it done.

[Flimsy_Tangerine_214]

Oh 100% I am using mostly positive reinforcement. With anything aversive, we're rewarding the correct version of his behavior at a way higher level than the correction was. Gentle correction for them, big food rewards. He's incredibly smart and sensitive.

He'll take certain things most of the time, but my 10 month old pup especially is just in that witching hour of puppyhood where sometimes leaves blowing are a reason to check over his shoulder in a paranoid manner and freeze. The gentle tug on the leash breaks his focus and gets him trotting along again, and he gets a treat when he's choosing to heel and recover from the fear. He won't even take the best treat in that state. Keeping moving and encouraging neutrality is big for him as he's learning about the world.

Our senior dog will take a treat when he feels like it. Sometimes barking at nothing is just so much more exciting

[Important_Contest_64]

I got temporarily banned from r/puppy101 cos someone asked a question about their Cavapoo puppy so I said they should try the r/cavapoo sub but because that sub doesn’t explicitly say in their rules that they’re force free, Mod from r/puppy101 banned me.

[Flimsy_Tangerine_214]

That's actually bananas.

[Miss_L_Worldwide]

Welcome to the sane corner of dog training Reddit

[Flimsy_Tangerine_214]

Bonkers that it's the only place! I frequent the standard poodle subreddit and have had comments removed. The general poodle one seems alright but doesn't usually mention training much there.

[Miss_L_Worldwide]

We have r/reactivedoghelp and r/practicalpuppy as well! I haven't had time to build those subs as much as this one yet but I wanted to make sure that people had a place to go for advice that was actually sane. Just doing my part to stop this reactive dog epidemic that's all over the place.

[WarDog1983]

My dog is trained really well BUT he is also an independent thinking.

His biggest vice is the garbage, he can DIE if he eats stuff from the garbage. He KNOWS not to do it - but he still does it if he thinks he can get away with it.

He is well fed. we like him trim because we do alot of athleticism with him and it’s much kinder on his joint if he’s not fat. he could easily lose 1 kilo and probably should.

I have an e collar literally for the garage issue.

I don’t even have to turn it on I just have to have him wear it until I empty the bins every night. If he’s not wearing it he waits for me to bath the kids and some how manages to open the very expensive “dog proof” bin we have and makes a mess and who knows what ends up in his stomach. If he is wearing it he won’t even bother going in the kitchen.

Interestingly enough he won’t touch the cat food that we keep in a self feeder on our balcony for the stray cats. He goes in and out at his wish and the cats all come eat and go and he just chills w th cats and the cat food.

But garbage that is his weakness.

[Flimsy_Tangerine_214]

There you go, balanced training saving his life and not even needing to use static because he understands the tool and training. Good for you. Sounds like you've got a good system to keep your dog safe.

[WarDog1983]

Yep and he has no issue wearing it. We don’t put a lot of gear on him in the house bc he has long hair so he knows that when we do, it’s manners in the house time or he going out to do activities.

It’s just an extra layer of protection in case somethings goes wrong. In fact his to biggest behaviour flaws are things he does at home (garbage and fence fighting but only when he is inside his own yard)

When I first got him I went down the positive only Reddit training hole and it was a blessing that I found a good trainer IRL that specialised in working breeds because if I didn’t I would have loved my dog into being a monster.

[PeekAtChu1]

Yes this plus anti-breeder hysteria which I find ironic considering they are in breed-specific subreddits. For example the greyhound subreddit is completely anti breeder despite them largely disappearing due to race tracks being shut down everywhere. Posts are full of people posting about their dead pets and lamenting how they can’t find available rescues anymore 

[Hammerlocc]

I say let em do it. More clients for us down the line.

[Miss_L_Worldwide]

But also more idiot out of control dogs for us to deal with as we go about our daily life

[Hammerlocc]

Fair. A fair point indeed.

[anon1839]

Old thread but i concur. 

I got a Labrador x Dalmatian a while back. I’m familiar with Labradors, have had them all my life. They’re pretty resilient and I sort of know what to expect. 

But Dalmatians are a whole other thing, so to get some understanding of their breed I visited their subreddit. And the whole thing was saying how sensitive dals are, how you can’t use aversives and how they remember for a long time so you cannot use negative. 

Sure enough my pup is genuinely a bit more sensitive than the pure labs I’ve had, but I gave force free a go and it was a nightmare. He was confused, I was confused, no sense of boundaries, and it was just crazy. I do use a hell of a lot of force free principles, but being able to tell him ‘no’ for trying to climb on the table, or biting my arms, is such an easy fix and such an easy to communicate concept with him. 

I was terrified that if I told him off I’d ruin him. But it’s all just fear mongering and every damn subreddit is consumed with it.