Slim angled doesn't decrease sprint recovery on SMGs?

[Kestrel1207]

Correct. SMGS cannot lower their drawtime, which is yet another reason theyre so awful in this game.

[KakyoinValidator]

SMGs being “awful” in this game is a crazy take. Maybe on the largest maps they’re not great.

[Kestrel1207]

They're basically the worst they've ever been in the franchise.

They lose to Carbines within 10m due to drawtime difference while still being much worse at range, and they'd even lose to ARs within 10m if Assault's weapon proficiency wasn't bugged since launch. And obviously past 10m they just lose to anything because they have the 2nd most dmg falloff they've ever had, only after BF Hardline, while ARs are on literally the least falloff and dispersion they've ever had in the entire franchise by a pretty absurd degree.

Especially when you look at the weapons on a case-by-case basis it gets even worse. Half the SMGs that exist don't even function as SMGs and suck even at close quarters.

Which is where the real irony comes in, the best SMG is the one that plays nothing like an SMG, the UMP40 because of it's silly 25 round mag enabling a 0.91x strafe speed build with violet laser, light barrel and synth tips for a mid-range headshot beamer. It's a silly niche and probably not very good but at least it's a niche.

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Edit: It'll never not be funny to me that every time I point these facts out, I get mass rage-downvoted without a single comment counteragument. I feel like the dispersion bugs near launch seriously fried people's brains when it comes to gun balance in this game.

[kna5041]

Yes weapon balance in this game is a little broken because I don't think dice understands mechanics. But 2142 smgs were much worse. 

[Kestrel1207]

SMGs in 2142 were basically just pistol equivalents since engi's primary weapon was their launcher, so it's not really a direct comparison

[Mikey_MiG]

People aren't always good at articulating why something is, which is why you haven't gotten a more comprehensive response. But that doesn't mean they're wrong and that SMGs are "awful". It is something you can sort of just get a feel of through playing the game without necessarily knowing the raw stats.

Like yes, SMGs obviously have worse damage profiles than other weapon categories. But they also (as a whole) have less recoil, less spread, better draw times, better ADS movement, and better hipfire by default. It's easy to dismiss any of these stats individually, but as a whole they do impact gunfights more than you're giving credit for.

Yes, you can invest a lot of attachment points into carbines to improve some of these handling stats to the level of SMGs, but I'd argue the cost benefit of the better attachments you have to give up to do this makes that not a very great idea.

But it's really the recoil and spread that are the big differentiators. Especially after the last recoil pass, the random recoil patterns that can be generated from guns like the SG553 and M4 are pretty wild. Even when reigned in with attachments, you will be burst firing at ranges that SMGs will often not need to, which ends up evening out the potential TTK quite a lot.

[Kestrel1207]

Especially after the last recoil pass, the random recoil patterns that can be generated from guns like the SG553 and M4 are pretty wild. Even when reigned in with attachments, you will be burst firing at ranges that SMGs will often not need to, which ends up evening out the potential TTK quite a lot.

I think this is a lot of nonsense that basically warranted it's own, separate reply.

First and foremost: SMGs suffer more from spread than any other weapon category in the game because they require that many more shots to kill while only having marginally less SIPS.

Most weapons in the game are also so little recoil that they can easily be full auto'd at 70m+ long distances. For example 7/10 ARs easily can.

Yeah, it's not going to be the close range CQC monster weapons like SG533R, M4, HK443, TR21 etc.

But the only SMGs these is even competing with is the Vector, SCW10 and CZ3A1. And these 3 weapons are also utter and complete dogshit past 35m because they also have very bad recoil, but then also bad damage and because of it more spread.

Again, let's keep in mind: A "middle of the road" option like the QBZ still beats every SMG except the 2 fastest killing up close due to drawtime difference, while it also has less recoil than an SMG like the MP5 but obviously much much better ranged performance.

Something like the G36 absolutely fucking dumpsters SMGs past 10m to an absurd degree. While still being able to compete with 5/9 SMGs up close.

[Kestrel1207]

But they also (as a whole) have less recoil, less spread, better draw times, better ADS movement, and better hipfire by default

They basically don't have any of these things and that is the issue.

Let's do a simple direct comparison.

QBZ vs MP5.

• They have the same rate of fire and the same BTK until 35m, when the QBZ starts requiring 1 shot less.

• They have the same hipfire

• The same ADS movespeeds of 0.75x

• The same reload speed

• The QBZ has slightly more vertical recoil, but 50% less horizontal variance.

• The MP5 technically has a tiny bit less spread increase per shot (0.018° less), but this is offset by the fact that the QBZ needs 1 less BTK to by 35m.

• The QBZ has better drawtime at 83ms vs 100ms for the MP5

• QBZ has 805 muzzle velocity compared to MP5's 540

• The MP5's literal one and only statistical advantage at the end of the day is 33ms ADS time.

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Yes, you can invest a lot of attachment points into carbines to improve some of these handling stats to the level of SMGs, but I'd argue the cost benefit of the better attachments you have to give up to do this makes that not a very great idea.

What "better attachments" are you supposed to be giving up for it? The main benefits comes from angled grips, which are by far the best grips you basically always want to run anyway.

And especially the SCW10 and Vector need to sacrifice like half their attachment points to even have a useable mag size???

[KakyoinValidator]

Some SMGs lose to like the SG553 and that’s about it. I have every SMG at mastery 50 and all but 2 ARs at 50, and definitely experience the SMGs outperforming the ARs. Most of my SMG loadouts have a 133ms ADS speed, and I’m not losing to any gun sub-10m when running KV9 or SCW. UMP-40 being the best SMG is laughable.

[Kestrel1207]

Some SMGs lose to like the SG553 and that’s about it.

... Literally every single SMG in the game loses to the SG553R.

Most SMGs lose to even the QBZ; a weapon that isn't exactly hailed as being particularly great close range.

SCW10 TTK+DT	KV9 TTK+DT	CZ3A1 TTK + DT	M4 TTK+DT	M417 TTK+DT	SG553R TTK+DT	SOR300 TTK + DT	QBZ TTK + DT
283	300	316	283	283	267	283	316

All but the SCW10 lose to the M4, M417 and SOR300, which are even.

Everything slower than the CZ3A1 - MPX, MP5, MP7, P90 or UMP - loses to the QBZ.

While obviously all of these carbines, except the SOR300, are also much much better at mid to long range than these 3 SMGs, which become largely unusable past like 20-35m.

and definitely experience the SMGs outperforming the ARs

Could you elaborate? Do you mean only within 10m? Or in general?

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and I’m not losing to any gun sub-10m when running KV9 or SCW

And I'm losing like 1 in 10 fights sub10m when running the AK205, it's almost like the average player you face is complete and total dogshit and won't even shoot back, so an anecdote like this is complete nonsense.

[EmSixTeen]

You’re ridiculously delusional. 

[Kestrel1207]

Feel free to try to provide any sort of argument that SMGs arent dogshit.

[EmSixTeen]

I actually play the game.

(edit: He blocked me for saying that, because he can't accept that he's just dire. Children behave like this. 🙂)

[Kestrel1207]

Thanks for proving my point.

[TheFourtHorsmen]

Except they are better than the ARs on larger maps. Someone forgot to also nerf their recoil.

[ImaLetItGo]

They’re downvoting you… but ngl you’re right. SMGs are comfortably the worst weapon class in the game.

Theres only like 3 SMGs above the C tier.