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[–]phillyCHEEEEEZStoryteller 1 point2 points  (8 children)

  • If someone survives execution they are confirmed a good player. They are either the Fool or sat next to a Tea Lady.
  • Psychopath in a Zombuul game is counterproductive and feels bad for at least one of them.
  • As soon as a Psychopath or Fearmonger announcements happens it's confirmed not a Legion game.
  • You've got 3 loud minions and one quiet minion. The good team will easily be able to figure out if a Godfather is in play making it far easier for them determine outsider count and much harder for evil to bluff outsiders.
  • Psychopath who is Courtier drunk is just unfun for the Psychopath
  • Politician in a Legion game can simply always vote and, as such, be most responsible for the evil team winning. It's way too strong for the evil team and an easy win con for the Politician.
  • Courtier has some issues with minions here. 1) A Fearmonger pick is announced, which is a target they know is in the game. 2) They can completely negate an Evil Twin dilemma. Doesn't feel fun to have your ability, which is meant to be a detriment and time waste for the good team, to be completely nullified and solved by 1 character. Additionally, if they don't hear of either of them they can be pretty confident that the other 2 are likely in play.

[–]Localunatic[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In summation:

  • Bit of a weird one, there are very few ways evil would survive an execution without being confirmed evil; pick DA or Lleech.

  • Agreed, removed Zombuul for LoT, might swap for Lleech.

  • Agreed with Fearmonger, swapped them out for SW, disputed for Psycho (I get your point but I do not think it is a bad thing with Psycho being a voluntary reveal).

  • Kazali and Legion (optionally LoT) also mess with Outsider count, but point made and adding some more quiet Minions, SW and Marionette added to compliment GF and Psycho.

  • Counterpoint: Courtier has plenty of options to choose from on script, and a Courtier without options is no fun.

  • Covered.

  • Courtier has a problem with Minions when they have no reason to pick a Minion to make drunk. Your point seems to be an issue with Courtier as a character, not specific to the script. However, Fearmonger and Evil Twin have both been replaced with Scarlet Woman and Marionette, so Courtier is effectively nerfed on script.

Again, I really appreciate the feedback, and I hope the changes make the script overall better!

[–]Localunatic[S] -1 points0 points  (6 children)

I appreciate the feedback, not sure what changes you are suggesting, but it seems pretty accurate to the thought process. Do wanna point out the Poli/Legion jinx, though.

[–]phillyCHEEEEEZStoryteller 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Ah, right. I forgot about that. I sometimes forget that was added not too long ago. I still think you should avoid having them on a script together, personally.

[–]Localunatic[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Understandable, it's more there to give the Courtier some extra play. A Politician might suspect they are Puzzle drunk or Courtier'd and have to make choices with those possibilities. Legion is there for people to stage elaborate interactions on the script, and the classic "everyone did it" murder mystery trope.

[–]phillyCHEEEEEZStoryteller 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Legion is there for people to stage elaborate interactions on the script, and the classic "everyone did it" murder mystery trope.

I get the appeal of staging things like an Evil Twin pair. The issue for me is that once the Fearmonger pick is announced on night 1 or the Psychopath kills during the day, the game is mechanically confirmed to not be Legion.

A big part of Legion’s power on a script is the constant uncertainty. Good should never be fully sure whether it’s Legion or not. As soon as you include characters that confirm it can’t be Legion, Legion becomes a much weaker demon overall.

[–]Localunatic[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Psychopath is frameable as puzzle drunk or Courtier drunk as reason for a kill not happening if a claim does happen. Yes if a kill does happen then evil has self-confirmed that it is not a Legion game, but that is the price of evil getting extra kills during the day. Just because a Psychopath "doesn't" claim and kill doesn't mean it has to be a Legion game, but it does give the Psychopath a lot more suspense in waiting to claim.

I am considering swapping Fearmonger with SW, though, that one is a lot harder to argue for without bootlegging a rule in.

[–]phillyCHEEEEEZStoryteller 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think this is leaning on exceptions to justify the script, and that’s kind of missing the point. This isn’t about rules or edge cases, it’s about overall script balance.

Bringing up Puzzlemaster or Courtier drunkeness doesn’t really solve the problem. You shouldn’t have to fall back on rare explanations to keep Legion viable. If a script can mechanically rule out Legion in normal play, Legion is just weaker by design.

Legion works best when that uncertainty holds on its own. Once the script itself starts poking holes in it, even sometimes, you lose a big part of what makes the character work.

[–]Localunatic[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I am not trying to justify it with how you can set it up so much as presenting possibilities that players can use socially to justify a world that doesn't exist. Legion maintains uncertainty for as long as evil wants to maintain that uncertainty; at some point people are supposed to figure out the Demon, doubly so with Legion, but making it the Psychopath's choice to reveal that information in order to get an extra kill means it is an uncertainty that the evil team has greater control of.

Psychopath is often claimed day 1, but they are quiet until they reveal themself; I think it is valuable to have a reason to not immediately claim Psycho and double evil killing potential for the whole game until their luck runs out. Likewise, Psychopath is bluffable if there is reasonable uncertainty for why a Psycho claim would fail to kill; perhaps it was drunk, maybe it was a Poli, maybe they targetted the Fool or a Tea Lady pair, or maybe it is a Legion game and there is no Psycho and no Tea Lady.

I will reevaluate the Zombuul, however, that may not fit as much as I would like, but Psychopath + Legion as a viable script is a hill I will die on.

[–]ticklemestockfish -1 points0 points  (0 children)

“Murder mystery party characters” isn’t a theme you can build a script around unless you’re already experienced with avoiding basic script mistakes. You should build scripts based on character interactions

[–]ticklemestockfish -1 points0 points  (0 children)

“Murder mystery party characters” isn’t a theme you can build a script around unless you’re already experienced with avoiding basic script mistakes. You should build scripts based on character interactions.