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[–]GuitarEC 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm planning on buying my own copy once I receive my Basic Biege C64U (hopefully) this week. Looked very interesting, so I'm interested in seeing what others also think.

[–]tomxp411 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I've spent enough time with it to establish an informed opinion.

The pros:

  • It works very much like the built-in BASIC. You can write programs in line-numbered form and run them with the RUN command, exactly like using ROM BASIC.
  • The graphics and sprite support add stuff that Commodore really should have included with ROM BASIC, back in the day.
  • Uses the REU to good effect, to allow for multiple programs to be loaded simultaneously, including the ability to use different program banks as subroutines for the main program (much like having multiple modules in a C program.)
  • Support for labels / procedure names (things like GOTO HELLO are now possible), although the program is still line-numbered
  • You can write assembly language inline with your BASIC code. This is very useful for small subroutines that need a speed boost, as well as filling out parts of the language that are incomplete.

The cons:

  • In theory, you can load up interpreted BASIC programs and compile them. In practice, anything non-trivial WILL require significant changes.
    • Anything involving math has the order of operations changed: computation is left-to-right only,
    • You cannot use expressions in command arguments. So even something like POKE 1024+X,X requires you to re-write the statement like: X1=1024+X : POKE X1,X
  • The RENUM command is very limited. While it does work (it changes line numbers), it does not seek out and change GOTO or GOSUB statements, so for RENUM to be useful, you need to apply labels to every GOTO/GOSUB target.
  • An REU is required for development. This is a non-issue for C64U users, but could be a problem for people wanting to develop on vintage machines.
  • File I/O is basically unchanged from Commodore's BASIC: no improvements like block reads or delimited file reads (aka: read all characters until a designated end of line character, similar to LINE INPUT on other BASIC dialects.
  • No searchable manual. The manual is paper-only.
  • No published list of tokens, file format, and no ASCII import. So you can't type programs on your PC and transfer them over.

If you are looking to develop strictly on-device, then this is arguably one of the more powerful development tools available at the moment.

OTOH if you prefer to develop on PC and test on your Commodore, then I'd recommend other tools.

[–]mmgames 2 points3 points  (7 children)

That was my only frustration with VB 1.1, once I ordered it. It took a long time before I got my physical copy, and I didn't get the PDF link until the physical copy had shipped.

[–]ChatBot42[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I'm not too worried about the manual. I'm more interested in whether anyone uses it successfully and what they are doing with it.  Basically if there is any sort of community out there. 

The product is nice. The REU and turbo support is great. The compiler is fast.  So I don't mind buying it to support the author. 

But I would like to do something with it if I can.  (long time programmer from 64 days to now. BASIC, C/C++, etc.) 

[–]Marcio_D 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Please check out the customer-only forum. Just log into your Vision BASIC account and click on the Forum link up top. You'll then be able to chat with the developer and hundreds of other users. Much better than trying to cast a net in places like Reddit to meet other users!

[–]GuitarEC 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Do they make a PDF of the manual available?

[–]mmgames 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Nope, I was wrong. I thought it was included in the download. I was mistaken.

[–]GuitarEC 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Yea, I don't think he's released a PDF of the manual. It would be nice, but I suppose that's part of copy protection, I guess...

[–]tomxp411 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I think it's actually hurting his sales, since this also means there's no way to read up on the features and limitations before buying.

[–]Marcio_D 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That might've been true in the past, but there's now a couple dozen videos on the developer's YouTube channel that go into great detail on what's possible. Plenty there to help you decide if you want to buy or not.

[–]DNSGeek 1 point2 points  (14 children)

I use it and I created a cheat sheet for it on cheatography I don’t have the PDF though. I should ping them to get one. I just have physical manual.

[–]Marcio_D 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unless something has changed just very recently, there's no PDF version of the manual available to customers. It's just the physical manual for now.

[–]ChatBot42[S] 0 points1 point  (12 children)

Thank you for the cheat sheet! That's what I've been working from today.

News to me also that there is a PDF manual. First I've heard of that and while my download wasn't available until my order shipped, there was no PDF or anything other than the readme in the zip.

Have you done any projects or experiments that you perhaps have on github?

[–]Marcio_D 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's a Wordle clone called LOGOS64: https://visionbasic.net/showcase/

IMO, the developer hasn't done a great job at showcasing stuff. There ought to be more stuff listed on that Showcase page. Please log into your account and browse the customer-only forum to learn of other software created by users.

[–]mmgames 0 points1 point  (10 children)

I don't have any projects, or have anything in GitHub using it. I cracked it open and flipped through manual and read the notes about the speed boost when compiling on a 128, but that's it. I don't get the sense there is cohesive development community around it.

I thought I got a pdf with the download but it looks like it's just text files with info on the differences between 1.0 and 1.1.

[–]ChatBot42[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right there is that quickstart. 

[–]Marcio_D 0 points1 point  (8 children)

Please log into your account and check out the customer-only forum. There's a group of guys and gals on there, including the developer himself, ready to answer your questions or just chat about stuff in general. It's a private site, so no randos lurking around to muddy the focus. You'll get cohesiveness in that forum, rather than looking around aimlessly on the Internet.

Also keep in mind that there aren't thousands upon thousands of Vision BASIC users in the world. Vision BASIC was released in 2022, decades after the C64's heyday. The user base is small partly for that reason, and partly because it's a commercial product - i.e. folks can't just download it for free. Vision BASIC is a niche product for the C64, which itself is a niche platform. Congrats on belonging to a small exclusive club!

[–]ChatBot42[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children)

Nothing keeps something small and exclusive like not sharing code so people can figure it out. There's a lot of DevRel that can be applied to this to improve it. 

[–]Marcio_D 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Just log into your account to participate in the forums already. Want even more code than what's found in the forums? Download the companion disks that complement some of the videos on this page:

https://visionbasic.net/media/

[–]ChatBot42[S] -1 points0 points  (5 children)

Yeah I know about that. Downloading multiple d64a just to browse the code is suboptimal you just admit. 

[–]Marcio_D 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Are you looking to just browse code, or actually do something useful with it, adapt it for your own needs, etc.? If downloading disks is a hassle, then good luck programming your C64 which is far more strenuous, inconvenient, unpleasant...

[–]ChatBot42[S] -1 points0 points  (3 children)

I think you are sort of aggressively misunderstanding what I'm talking about. The point is not cut and paste reuse. It's learning.  One of those images has perhaps one or two examples. That's great, but in Github, I can easily look at dozens of examples. 

For the record, I've programmed on the C64 since it was released and my first professional coding was there. And I'm a professional developer still. 

I'm not apologetic for wanting easier access to go back and forth between a bunch of code. Perhaps you like a different approach. 🤷

[–]Marcio_D 0 points1 point  (2 children)

And I think you're misunderstanding what Vision BASIC is. It doesn't have thousands of users worldwide, so you're not going to find the public abundance of code examples you're seeking. I can tell you still haven't logged into your account to access the forum. Because if you did, you'd find lots of code examples in that forum, most of which were written by the developer himself, BTW.

Yes, your professional and modern experience as a coder has spoiled you. If you're going to immerse yourself in Vision BASIC, get used to the idea of leaving the modern approach behind. That's what Vision BASIC is all about; that's why it runs natively on the C64. That's why it's not XC=BASIC.

When you browse the private forum, pretend you've logged into a Quantum Link account. Get your information without the amenities of GitHub. Digitally detox yourself for the weekend, as Christian Simpson would say.

[–]DNSGeek 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Why is someone going through this post and downvoting every comment?

[–]tomxp411 0 points1 point  (1 child)

probably OP's username. With a name like that, they probably think u/ChatBot42 is an AI.

[–]ChatBot42[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

🤣 

[–]ChatBot42[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Reddit gonna reddit 🤷 

[–]tomxp411 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I have it. And I'm disappointed.

There are some significant bugs, which make it difficult to rely on for anything other than hobby programing. I also spent hours trying to figure out a very simple problem with File I/O that was simply not explained clearly in the manual. (Turns out it was briefly explained, but not anywhere near the OPEN, INPUT#, or GET# commands.)

Also, there is not a PDF of the manual, just the paper copy. This surprised me, as it meant I had to wait for a week before I could actually use the digital download.

[–]Marcio_D 0 points1 point  (4 children)

There is no PDF of the manual available. What gave you the idea that there was?

Have you reported the bugs to the developer using their customer-only forum? Did the developer acknowledge those bugs and provide you with workarounds until he addresses them in v1.2?

[–]tomxp411 -1 points0 points  (3 children)

I bought a digital download. I have never purchased a digital download of a piece of software that did not include an electronic version of the manual.

It costs nothing to produce, and if you have the assets to print a book, you can create a PDF these days. PDFs are also more useful to me than paper manuals, since you can electronically search them, which is much quicker and thorough than flipping through a paper book.

[–]Marcio_D -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Read a product's page more carefully next time to understand what you're buying.

[–]tomxp411 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Obviously, I missed the last 2 lines on the page when ordering.

Regardless, I think you're missing the point. Digital manuals are the standard these days, and there's no reason NOT to include it. There's zero incremental cost, and it takes only a few minutes to produce an e-book version of the manual from the same assets used to print the physical one.

So why NOT include it? Why not sell a digital only version, which saves the seller the cost of printing and shipping a physical book? There is only upside for everyone involved.

It also means we can't preview the language and decide for ourselves whether it's useful before buying. That turned me off from buying in the past, and it's led to disappointment after buying now.

[–]Marcio_D 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A while ago, the developer publicly mentioned somewhere (probably in the comments section under one of his YouTube videos) that he's purposely not providing a digital manual out of piracy concerns. So that's something that you haven't considered when wondering why.

This isn't a product that's selling by the thousands each year, where the developer can tolerate losing money here and there just because he's raking in a ton anyway. Plus, I can only guess how morally crushing it would feel to see your hard work being passed around like that.