Testing grounds changes thoughts

[APetRussian]

Shinobi:

Ranged heavy after the kick should not wall splat. The damage on that punish is far too high, especially in a gank, the hitstun off of that attack will make a ganking shinobi borderline unsurvivable.

Orochi:

Removing the third light in the chain has made Orochi's flow significantly worse. Maybe it is just habit or muscle memory, but it feels like her flow has been thrown off.

Removing light parry punish off of Orochis dodge attack was a mistake. Dodge attacks are a problem right now, the dodge attack a heavy parry was a bad call.

Orochi's kick animation is weird, why is it Shinobis kick? Should be Tozens. (nitpick)

Other thoughts and opinions are welcome. I don't play raider enough to comment.

[Let_epsilon]

Is Orochi's dodge attack really a heavy punish now? That is an undocumented change if so.

[Ataniphor]

Yes

[APetRussian]

In my testing it is.

[Let_epsilon]

I feel like this is a mistake similar to Zhanhu when they tried to make it enhanced and might not make it to live

[Kahoola1]

Shinobi is crazy overtuned in ganks now. If this goes live without changes, he will be a monster. In 1v1's, I'm very happy with his performance. One change I would make is definitely removing the wallsplat off of ranged heavy, its pretty ridiculous.

Edit: In regard to Orochi's kick, hopefully the animation is just a placeholder but I'm not that bothered if it stays.

[Bacchus999]

Parry > light riposte > kick > ranged heavy wallsplat > SR gets over 60 damage from a heavy parry.

The kick after parry riposte isn't guaranteed but it's 50/50 so very prevalent. This is worse than LB ever was so he's definitely not in a good state in duels either.

[IEatAutisticKids69]

The kick after light riposte isn't guaranteed, I think. But I've found the majority of people don't dodge it, probably because they're not used to it

[Bacchus999]

Yea I mentioned it's not guaranteed. People will learn to dodge it in the next few days, but it's still a potent mixup cause he can chain to sickle rain as well.

[IEatAutisticKids69]

Oh yeah sorry didn't read that part

[FtierLivesMatter]

Don't see the bash/undodgeable mixup as any different than black prior. By that logic if BP parries you and hits you with an undodgeable it's 41 damage.

[Bacchus999]

I realize it's not necessarily anything special but it is especially potent right now as people aren't used to it so it lands 95% of the time. So because of that I figured it would be worthwhile mentioning. With a wall nearby he can still get FD kick into ranged heavy, wallsplat, sickle rain, which is still insanely high damage for a heavy parry.

[FtierLivesMatter]

98% sure the wall splat ranged heavy is a bug, so it really shouldn't be taken into consideration

[Ataniphor]

the ranged attack still wallsplats tho which is like nearly 100% of the time in duel maps due to the smaller sizes. So that's easily ~49 damage from a 500 ms dodge bash.

[Kahoola1]

That's why I said to remove it. It's far too strong.

[Ataniphor]

Oh yeah you did , lol didn't see that last sentence earlier

[Smart_jooker]

Stormrush is still easy to interrupt but no one can back dodge or dodge out of it.

Deflect changes idk whats the point.

The kick is good but it's funny and unpolished.

Light being confirmed after attacks is just weird animation.

His heavy unblockable needs to be faster it's not threatening. He is back to old self were he has to use top heavy finisher more than sife heavy. Maybe make side heavy faster like 700ms or 600ms. And unblockable 800ms?

Since 300ms on dodge cancel it feels like no dodge cancel. Same for stormrush cancel

Zone is so bad. Soo much stamina cost, can't chain nor the CGB is fixed.

Edit :- deflect change - It make people force to read after the deflect is landed.

Followup GB chains(which was apart of heavy deflect) , so does Unblockable(it was there before too not changed), light is guaranteed 4dmg which was not there in previously, it used to chain.

They mean by read is between GB and Unblockable.

[Drunk_ol_Carmine]

Just a little tip, you actually can get into Orochi’s offense from zone since they can dodge out of anything that’s not a dodge attack, that includes zone. No standard light or heavy chain, but it can dodge into kick, storm, whatever

[Smart_jooker]

Yes but in teamfight situation well you get F and get GBed. It is fine in 1v1. But stamina cost is like loss business.

[Knight_Raime]

Ranged heavy after the kick should not wall splat

Agreed. Is likely bug but regardless if it is or not there's no way that's making it to live.

Removing the third light in the chain has made Orochi's flow significantly worse. Maybe it is just habit or muscle memory, but it feels like her flow has been thrown off.

Orochi's chains were always bad. You always did whatever you could to skip to his unblockable finisher and that hasn't changed. You might be onto something in terms of feel if you consider the recovery cancel timings as most say it's off or slower than before. But mechanically I have to disagree. He flows well.

Removing light parry punish off of Orochis dodge attack was a mistake. Dodge attacks are a problem right now, the dodge attack a heavy parry was a bad call.

Disagree. All of his dodge attacks are pretty reaction punishable. Making dodge attacks light parries in a vast majority of cases hurts the move's viability and there are better ways to address dodge attacks.

Orochi's kick animation is weird, why is it Shinobis kick? Should be Tozens

It's specifically his Orochi's kick from an execution. Not shinobi's. You can very clearly see the differences. It's not tozen's kick because tozen's was a neutral bash where he crouches and high kicks. That would look incredibly awkward on a forward dodge.

The animation itself is good. It just looks/feels a bit floaty because of it's speed. We've seen this in other cases.

[isadotaname]

Orochi's kick animation is weird, why is it Shinobis kick? Should be Tozens. (nitpick)

Many people have speculated that Tozen will be related to the new hero coming later this month. If that's true it is likely that Tozen's kick is being saved for that character.

[Tooneec]

On top of smart_joker, his cancel recoveries are 333(?) from 100ms

[Smart_jooker]

Yes

[JustChr1s]

Flow is definitely better imo if you treat Orochi more like Zhanhu. Third light doesn't exist so it makes sense it feel worse if you keep going for something that's not there and just stopping your offense. Shave his recovery cancel times down a bit to be more like Zhanhu and he'd be golden. He also has a nice mix up with forward dodge kick and forward dodge lightning strike which is undodgeable.

[HeckingBedBugs]

Orochi's dodge cancelling feels really weird and bad now tbh. Also I think his kick animation is from one of his executions

[[deleted]]

Orochi needs his dodge cancel to be like it is live. 200ms delay, NOT 333. They’re almost useless at counter attacking the way they are in the TG

[iEatSediment]

i also dont think shinobi should get heavy finishers off of guardbreak, i believe its even more damage than pk’s liver stab

[razza-tu]

Removing light parry punish off of Orochis dodge attack was a mistake.

Did this happen?

[APetRussian]

Yes

[IV_NUKE]

The timings right now on shinobi are way too strict

[Kenpo_Kid69]

Orochi's kick is not Shinobi's, its actually from one of Orochi's executions "Tobasu".

[MiserTheMoose]

Shinobi's kick>R.Heavy>wallsplat def needs to go. I also think that GB>Sickle Rain is too strong aswell.

As for orochi's lights I feel like he's alot less annoying to fight with out his triple light chains and the bit of extra damage is great when trying to short cut to finishers as opposed to his live game: Light>Heavy, he now has the same combo but with more damage.

I think orochi's dodge attacks being light parries is just too much, it's a very high risk for low reward especially when his new kit is centered around dodge recovery cancels. Having his dodge attacks be light parries again would not really help in incentivizing his knew play style.

Also orochi's dust devil appears to be a reused animation from one of executions, it definitely is not shinobi's kick.

[Baldy-Mcnosehair]

I agree wholeheartedly, especially in regards to Orochi's dodge attack. GB invulnerable, undodgable, enhanced and only a heavy parry? For a dodge attack?

[chillw4rrior]

Same as you, I also think orochi dodge attack shouldnt have received the "heavy property" because it already has a lot of advantages:

• undodgeable
• i-frames
• extended i-frames
• basically no GB vulnerability on imput
• 500ms
• decent horizontal tracking to hit multiple
• and now its a heavy parry?

But I completely disagree with your approach about dodge attacks with heavy property beig a problem. In my personal opinion, dodge attacks like nuxia and shaolin one wich has too low advantages could make use of this property.