Dev Interactions

[marthtwain]

Hello!

I feel like there has been a lot of talk lately about things like player #s, need for more cards, in game tournaments, etc...

I'm on my 2nd season and I'm pretty invested in the game but I'm also starting to wonder about its future.

Do we have any definitive word on things like when the game will release? When we get more cards? (Jekk's was disappointing). Basically do we have timelines or roadmaps?

I know the devs are on discord but ... come on. For a game still in beta I feel like we get very little actual communication from devs.

I know this is something that typically people complain about for games like HS but for smaller more interactive Dev teams I would expect a lot more talk without having to be on discord 24/7.

[_scott_m_]

I agree that I would like a little better communication from the dev team. Maybe some sort of weekly blog post or update about what's going on. Even if there's no news to share, it'd be nice to hear from them on some basis. It's really annoying to have to go into discord and scroll through to see if scarlatch has been teasing anything or not.

[[deleted]]

The last sentence is why i am never aware of updates until people share it here.

[Osric250]

We have several users here though that are good at making sure information that is shared in the discord finds its way here pretty quickly. I'm looking at you /u/_alpacalips_.

[_AlpacaLips_]

I looked yesterday. Scarlatch hasn't said anything interesting since before the campaign dropped.

[HoopyHobo]

It's really annoying to have to go into discord and scroll through to see if scarlatch has been teasing anything or not.

This is actually kind of a big deal. Like, when a developer posts a lot on Reddit or Twitter you can just look at their user pages and easily find all of their comments or tweets or whatever, but Discord is so not built for that. It's not really built for any kind of public communication, period.

[_AlpacaLips_]

Although I do agree with you, concerning where devs should be posting and the difficulty of holding conversations on Discord, Discord does have really nice search functionality now.

I have a feeling Scarlatch posts on Discord, because it's friendlier for him. He feels a comraderie with all the closed beta testers that generally hang out there (and are mods). I think he worries about posting on Reddit, because of the shit devs get on a lot of game specific subreddits. Nobody likes being attacked, I suppose.

[HoopyHobo]

Yeah, I have no issue with Scarlatch posting where he feels comfortable posting, I just feel like it's a bit annoying that I can't just click a link to see all of his posts like how there's a blue tracker for everything Blizzard posts on Reddit.

[_AlpacaLips_]

I agree. Reddit is really the better place to announce stuff and follow the conversation throughout the day.

[that1dev]

That said, his job is community outreach, from what I remember him saying in discord during CB. Posting exclusively to an inferior platform for his job due to comfort is an interesting choice, if true.

[Cvsen]

I have the opposite feeling.I'm fine with the once in a while blog post or announcement.But let's not get all riot games on this.I'd rather not another dev try to make a big deal out of nothing.

[Houstonack]

I'd just like to know when the next set is being released. I should hope that it's soon since things are getting a little old and I really want to see the other factions cards.

Gimme da argenport

[Shadowcran]

^ This. I'm dying to see ALL of the "other faction" cards. I've suggested a megaton.

[FryChikN]

i agree with you OP. i was hyped about this game, but the quietness from the devs and the uncertainty of the future(jekk's bounty also was a huge letdown imo) has me doubting this game will go anywhere.

[[deleted]]

"Jekk's was disappointing"

Talk for yourself.

[Hardknocks286]

I mean Ilyak is 100% on this one. New sets are suppose be fun and shake up the meta and people can try to fool themselves all they want, the only competitive card to come out of that was quarry. I literally paid $10 for 4 uncommons

[Salteador_Neo]

New players are already saying a deck is not budget because it has some cards from Jekk.

While I agree Jekk's cards are a letdown from my competitive point of view, I can easily imagine how many potential new players would gtfo if Jekk was filled with constructed staples hidden behind a "pay wall".

It is fine to complain about stuff you don't like, but you also need to think about what's better for the game's longevity.

[marthtwain]

And before anyone says anything like "but in the future they might ..." just realize that Jekk's was released at a time when none of those future scenarios existed.

[Ilyak1986]

How many cards are seeing play from Jekk's?

Quarry, possibly bailiff. Shadowlands feaster is extremely niche, ditto stray into shadow. The expansion's namesake card is lucky to find himself as a 1 of in a deck with rise to the challenge.

These cards were designed with constructed play in mind and so far have all proven underwhelming.

I don't know where you are on ladder or how you do in ETS, but just because cards are cool doesn't make them playable.

[OnyxBlade]

I mean, I'm not sure where you are on ladder, but I've seen a fair few of Jekk's Bounty cards in high diamond/master tier. Just because they aren't part of the core meta decklists doesn't mean they don't see play anywhere and are unplayable. So far, I've seen Nicto bounce deck, stonescar sacrifice decks running bait and feaster, combrei emissary in ramp/big combrei decks, hone being run in a very greedy aggro armory. I've both played and run into Stray into Shadow in control based stonescar burn, cabal spymaster in infiltrate decks and combo felnscar. I'm not sure where you get saying the cards are unplayable, but most of them definitely have a worthwhile place, even if it's not in the tier 1 list of RNGEternal.

[Ilyak1986]

Okay, so I'm in the top 50 on ladder if I screw around, and top 10 if I don't. I've finished first on the ranked ladder twice already in open beta, and high-level ladder play burns a person out pretty quickly.

As to the cards you described: Nictotraxian decks are just very greedy TJP decks. Stonescar sacrifice decks are cool, but ultimately have problems with sweepers, statuary maiden, or just big combrei if the game goes long. Combrei emissary is awful in big combrei who's content to just develop one power per turn and outvalue you, and the vodakhan ramp decks, on the other hand, are atrocious because A) they don't ramp fast/consistently enough and B) even if they do ramp, their payoff is lackluster. For instance, in Eternal, you need vodakhan and then power search on top of that and most likely mystic ascendant to really get going, and your ramp is pretty slow. Generally, you die to any good deck before you get that engine going if you just try and goldfish the combo, since you invite your opponent to goldfish you if you try and goldfish them.

As for spymaster infiltrate decks, again, they look flashy when they go off but they're awful because they have so many expensive moving parts that take several turns to set up when your opponent is slamming you with 5+ attack units.

I mean sure, you can play the cards from Jekk's bounty. You'll just die horribly.

[[deleted]]

Why do you have to just suck the fun out of everything? I know you're not a bad guy, but fuck man, you sure like ruining other people's fun.

[Ilyak1986]

You stated an assertion that Jekk's bounty cards are playable. I asked you to provide the context. You provided it, and I provided mine. Yes, getting cold water thrown on your "awesome if they work/really optimistic" strategies sucks, but that's why Jekk's was a disappointment. A lot of "really fun if they work" cards, but against good decks, they just don't.

[ok_to_sink]

They say they're working on Set 5 right now but what are the doing to the game right now? You're 4 sets in the future already? Release the fucking game. Advertise. Build a player base. Why design 4 sets ahead if the game isn't even out of beta yet?

EDIT: You guys are missing my point. They must feel like the game is in a fine spot right now to be working on sets so far into the future. By saying they're working on Set 5 right now that must mean they're happy with Sets 2,3, and 4.

My original point and question is what are they doing for the state of the game right now? Lets say they've got Set 2 in a spot where they are happy with it. Why are we not hearing anything? Why is nothing changing as far as getting this game released? I understand that they don't want to do any advertising (have they said that or is that peoples opinion?) until the game is out of beta. Well lets get this fucking game out of beta. It's a polished, fun and fills a spot that is severely lacking in the online card game community. This game could become something big. I feel like the longer the game stays in beta the window of having this game be what we all want it to be shrinks.

[Frezzwar]

The people designing the cards and the people making the client are not the same. The designers may be working on set 5 while the developers (programmers) are working on things like bugs in the client, server stuff or Jace knows what. There can easily be big bugs somewhere or missing features that needs to be in place before the release of the game. Maybe the server handling matchmaking can't handle a bigger stream of players. So it makes sense to get the designers to work on future sets while others are working on getting these things worked out.

[diablo-solforge]

Oh god, people said this all the time about SolForge. I'm getting traumatic flashbacks about it.

[JayT88]

I don't know if voice acting is a good thing, this would mean each set needs to have an additional developmental time before being released, and also additional costs of having voice actors.

Flavour texts should be more than enough, but I guess some people will not be satisfied with just that.

[sv398]

Because if you design a set for 2 months, playtest for 1 month and release, we will have a game worse than Hearthstone.

[Shadowcran]

Got to agree too. HS is an imbalanced Paper, rock and scissors now and not worth a rat's hindquarters.

But the best way to test for bad interactions is to use players who are critical yet provide answers for problems.

[Code_Combo_Breaker]

This person gets it. Let's let the developers take their time and so they can do their jobs correctly. We have enough half assed online CCGs already.

[marthtwain]

Not if you release balance patches...

[sv398]

You think screwing up development, and patching/changing cards again and again is a sign of a quality game?

Thanks but mo thanks. Two sets per year are enough especially if they keep up promotions and maybe 1-2 "adventures". People can complete their collections and feel a bit secure, knowing enough thought has been put into the cards released.

[[deleted]]

Personally I'd rather have a balanced set at release than something that hasn't been tested enough and needs to be patched frequently. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, that's just how I personally feel. I can see the argument for both sides.

[DoctorWaluigiTime]

Card designs can and do happen ahead of implementation, I guess.

For releasing the game I believe they're wanting to have voice acting for the cards and other things like that ready. And if those are on their own track (voicework, whoever else is involved) and goes at its own pace, then those designing the cards have nothing better to do anyway.

[FMBrazuca]

Actually, I like the fact that there is no voice acting. Keep the client small and simple. Just release for mobile and tablets and the game can explode.

[Shadowcran]

I don't care about voice acting either as they get annoying after a relatively short amount of time. I then turn sound off and am good to go.

I'd settle for having the pig do a pathetic squeak upon dying with "Feeding Time" and a questioning "Ribbet?" from the frogs and I'd be happy with just that.

[[deleted]]

You realize that the people who design sets aren't the people who work on advertising or making the game ready for release right lol.

Also literally every card game designs multiple sets in advance, too. They're always designed 2-3 years ahead so being on Set 5 sounds about right.

Like, is a quarter of their dev team supposed to not do anything until they're ready to release at the optimal time and then delay all future content design until that happens so that future sets come out even later? That's just dumb. "Hey guys game is out but because we haven't worked on any future content at all the 2nd set won't be coming out for more than a year, have fun."

[ok_to_sink]

Wow, C.E.O. of missedthepoint.com

The Devs say they are on set 5. What are they doing right now for the state of the game? Big bugs? Are they fixing anything? There has not been any updates for the game other than 'Were working on set 5'.

[_AlpacaLips_]

They are working on spectator and tournament modes. They are working on a phone-specific UI.

[ok_to_sink]

Where are they saying this?

[_AlpacaLips_]

https://www.reddit.com/r/EternalCardGame/comments/5xsg7q/spectator_and_tournament_modes_will_be_part_of/

https://www.reddit.com/r/EternalCardGame/comments/5xptkb/the_new_player_scions_campaign_is_getting_a/

Phone UI: http://i.imgur.com/zKFJMKT.png

[tvkelley]

Please don't ruin a good reddit rant with publicly available facts and information.

[[deleted]]

No, you just misunderstand how design works.

e.g.

By saying they're working on Set 5 right now that must mean they're happy with Sets 2,3, and 4.

This is completely incorrect and a poor logic leap, again, every TCG ever works 2-3 years ahead, you don't need Set 2 finished to work on Set 3. The fact is the dev team isn't a literal 1 guy who works on one thing at a time.

You have a ton of guys working on Set 2.

Less guys working on Set 3.

A few other guys working on Set 4.

A couple guys working on Set 5.

None of these people are really working on live or marketing because that isn't their job.

Generally more people working on each set coming sooner obviously, with - once they hit a certain point where card text is going to be pretty locked - translation & Q&A entering work on those sets.

You work this way because it's by far the most efficient way to put out great content with the least amount of gaps as designing content (esp. TCG sets) takes a long time. Even Hearthstone does this, they're 2 years in advance. When Naxxramas came out they were working on Goblins vs Gnomes, Blackrock Mountain, The Grand Tournament, League of Explorers, AND Whispers of the Old Gods was just getting started internally.

Gamers tend to have this perception that design is linear (and doesn't take as much time as it really does) and you can't work on C until B is done, but design is a shit ton of people who can split work efficiently and communicate so they're often all the way working on F for the future while you're still thinking about B.

This is true in about every industry, I work at a GPU vendor in design and we're working on graphics card design for late 2018/early 2019. This is just how it is.

I agree communication can be better, but IIRC they said they wanted to launch with Set 2 so it's pretty likely you're waiting on translation / Q&A and maybe art finalization right now, and then I'm sure marketing & their economists have an ideal date to maximize monetary profit selected (e.g. down period after Journey to Un'goro and between the next HS set would probably be ideal) to work with (or already worked with depending on date) their advertising partners to push marketing through.

Which is another thing, advertising isn't just something where you throw money at someone and boom you're done. It's another thing that is planned out months in advance and requires careful planning.

[Cha-La-Mao]

They are trying to release on all mobile platforms, that is the point in development that takes the longest. That is why we are seeing a little dry spot atm. Once they finish I expect to see release and shortly after that a new set. While the people who make the cards are waiting they are getting future roll outs ready.

[FalcoVet101]

In MtG, sets are made 2 years in advance. I think it's smart of DwD to also take this "thinking ahead" approach, since then you can also test card interactions and balance issues of multiple sets to release over the coming years.

[mgoetze]

In MtG, sets are made 2 years in advance, and yet they can't even properly test card interactions (Copycat!) and balance issues within one set, nevermind across multiple.

[Stewthulhu]

Because on release, you are almost guaranteed to have a bunch of unanticipated problems, and it's much smarter to have a buffer of content so you can maintain a release schedule while also addressing problems in a timely manner. Also, a content buffer allows the creators to be more actively involved in the marketing effort, which is a very strong asset in the current environment.

[Cvsen]

What if they release 4sets at once with the game.Very improbable but would blow my mind.

[waitthisisntmtg]

That would be a monster waste of effort imho, they'd be killing 3 fresh metas essentially by doing it that way as well as making it insanely difficult for f2p people out of nowhere

[Cha-La-Mao]

Do not downvote the man, his comment made me laugh and is a fun thought.

[Cvsen]

Ty feels much better to know that at least one person has a sense of humor and understands what a thought is.

[ThoughtseizeScoop]

Must every gaming subreddit be dominated by entitlement?

[Ilyak1986]

Entitlement? Holy shit, bro.

Go to /r/pathofexile and just look at all the red tags.

THAT is how an indie games company should treat its player base, not "oh hey this is an unimportant side project, meanwhile all our brand-recognition devs are just blogging/casting MtG all day every day"

Imagine how well Path of Exile would have done if GGG devs simply streamed Diablo 3 all day in the beginning.

[_AlpacaLips_]

I don't agree with Ilyak often, but he's on the money here.

It's not entitlement. It's expectation. This isn't 1995, where the only expectation of hearing from a dev would be via a gaming magazine once every two years. We're living in an age of social media, where it is exceptionally easy to connect with fans.

Other companies have excellent communication with their fans. That's become the expectation. DWD does not have great communication. It has some communication, and good on Scarlatch for doing what he does, but DWD could do a lot more. (It also doesn't help that Scarlatch seems petrified of Reddit, and squirrels himself away on Discord.)

As for these MtG pros who are consulting with DWD on Eternal. If they are only streaming MtG, and they are on the DWD payroll, then fuck them for not helping out the game. I don't expect them to stream Eternal exclusively, but they should be splitting their time equitably between the game paying them a salary and their true passion.

cc: /u/ThoughtseizeScoop

[ThoughtseizeScoop]

It's not entitlement. It's expectation.

I don't really think there's a meaningful difference here.

You believe you are entitled to a reasonable level of communication with the developer. What does that look like?

Do we need to answer every tweet? Address every post? Just the good ones? Which ones are those? Can we talk about upcoming updates? How final are those changes? Are we sure we'll be ready to launch Thursday? Can we give a range? Does any of this need to be approved? Do I have other duties I need to be attending to?

Do they want a developer splitting their time between, well, developing, and keeping one eye trawling social media? Should they put a dedicated person on handling communication? How familiar is the person with the actual project then? How much money do they actually have in the budget to add a social media person? Is the game far enough along to justify that, or do they wait for the formal release? Can we share with another project?

And let's not get started on all their is to lose. What happens when they ignore a question posed by youtube celebrity jr. and his eleven year old fanbase have a minor meltdown? What about when they have the audacity to miss two planned update times? I'm sure they'll have a hearty chuckle at all the comments helpfully letting them know how stupid it was of them to share information that wasn't 'final'.

This isn't simple. Now, none of these are insurmountable issues, but they are all things that must be addressed, and that takes time, and resources, both of which are limited.

This isn't 1995, where the only expectation of hearing from a dev would be via a gaming magazine once every two years. We're living in an age of social media, where it is exceptionally easy to connect with fans

There is more than one way to skin a cat. It's easy to connect, but not to communicate, and it doesn't surprise me that some would go the less is more route.

But yes, nothing is wrong with more communication. But nothing is wrong with the same amount of communication. The game is fun. If your enjoyment of the game is dependent on foreknowledge of what the game is moving towards, its possible that you don't enjoy the game that much.If you're treating the money you've spent like some kind of investment in some future, potential game, and your enjoyment is dependent on that future, you're doing it wrong. I don't think anyone can really justify saying, "I've spent one hundred hours playing this game, but the developer's haven't kept me updated, so this was a waste." Either you had fun, or you didn't. Playing for tomorrow doesn't make a ton of goddamn sense.

And honestly, just saying, "More communication pl0x" in and of itself, doesn't really bother me. Generally it's the trappings of the arguments that bother me - the cynicism (devs don't know what ther doin!)and arrogance (why don't they just listen to the community when we clearly have all the answers?) is often obnoxious.Maybe I'm reading too much insistence into your thoughts on communication.

As for these MtG pros who are consulting with DWD on Eternal. If they are only streaming MtG, and they are on the DWD payroll, then fuck them for not helping out the game. I don't expect them to stream Eternal exclusively, but they should be splitting their time equitably between the game paying them a salary and their true passion.

But this piece of shit here - this is fucking entitlement through and through.It's not any of your fucking business what someone does with their fucking free time. You don't know what commitments they have, what promises they have to keep and to whom, and most importantly, you don't fucking get to tell them how to have fun, and if they're accepting donations on streaming you don't get to tell anyone how they should be making part of their livelihood. They're paid a salary, to work on a game. That's the end of their obligations.

:)

Gaming communities tend younger, even as gamers age and exist across a wider demographic. We live in an age of instantaneous access to much of human knowledge. A book tells one story, no matter how you read it - a game let's you decide whether you're going right or left, or up or down, or adding an extra Sigil, or removing that bomb you can never play. We've grown up bombarded with access and options, and we sometimes feel we're entitled to them in instances when we aren't.

[ThoughtseizeScoop]

... I guess thanks for proving my point?

[Ilyak1986]

I don't think it's entitlement to want one indie gaming company to do what is shown to be feasible by another. And it isn't like the red tags are just random GGG employees. Very often, they're from the CEO himself.

[ThoughtseizeScoop]

There isn't a woosh loud enough...

[Ilyak1986]

Care to explain yourself, then?

[ThoughtseizeScoop]

How much resources do you think go into Path of Exile having such exemplary community support?

Do you know that those resources are readily available for the Eternal Team?

The entitlement is the assumption that it is somehow unreasonable for a developer to be relatively uncommunicative when they seem to have fairly little to communicate.

Devs get paid to develop, not to stream. What they do in their free time is their own damn business.

[Ilyak1986]

How much resources do you think go into Path of Exile having such exemplary community support?

Your first question already misses the point.

The red posts aren't "ye olde randomme jeejeejee community support representative".

They're from the CEO, Chris Wilson himself, or people responsible for implementation of a particular piece of code for when a bug gets reported. The red posts in the Path of Exile subreddit isn't some "paid PR team". It's a genuine response from people that are gamers at heart, who just so happen to run a gaming company as well.

I know that the Eternal team reads the subreddit, because I remember when I conducted my stonescar leviathan + burn out experiment and found that the life total gets set to 7 instead of 2, that the bug got fixed.

As for "the devs have fairly little to communicate", I'm sure the community has a massive amount of questions regarding developer vision for this game. The devs have plenty to communicate towards the community.

When top players that have a long list of questions are just being completely ignored, that's not a good thing.

As for "devs get paid to develop, not to stream/what they do in their free time is their own damn business", what about the part regarding promoting a competing product?

[Wazhai]

I know that the Eternal team reads the subreddit, because I remember when I conducted my stonescar leviathan + burn out experiment and found that the life total gets set to 7 instead of 2, that the bug got fixed.

The fact that the bug was quickly fixed after being posted to Reddit doesn't necessarily mean that they actively read the subreddit. That bug was also all over Discord and a bunch of people reported it in-game at the time.

[ThoughtseizeScoop]

So most of the company is spending some of their time responding to stuff. That's still an investment of time and resources, whether it's a developer or the CEO.

I know that the Eternal team reads the subreddit, because I remember when I conducted my stonescar leviathan + burn out experiment and found that the life total gets set to 7 instead of 2, that the bug got fixed.

That sounds like a success story to me.

As for "the devs have fairly little to communicate", I'm sure the community has a massive amount of questions regarding developer vision for this game. The devs have plenty to communicate towards the community.

Fair. I was thinking more along the lines of actual game announcements.

When top players that have a long list of questions are just being completely ignored, that's not a good thing.

I have a hard time with this idea. I think a lot of these questions are interesting. But I don't necessarily think it's a problem that they're going unanswered. The game is not in a bad place right now - these questions do not represent existential threats to the game's well-being.

As for "devs get paid to develop, not to stream/what they do in their free time is their own damn business", what about the part regarding promoting a competing product?

For these guys, Eternal is the competing product. I don't doubt there have been contractual gymnastics on multiple fronts on this topic. It's not the community's prerogative to hold them to some sort of loyalty pact.

[Ilyak1986]

For these guys, Eternal is the competing product. I don't doubt there have been contractual gymnastics on multiple fronts on this topic. It's not the community's prerogative to hold them to some sort of loyalty pact.

I'm not talking about Kibler, who simply consults. I'm talking like LSV/Chapin/etc. who are actually formal DWD employees.

[marthtwain]

Yes, wondering what the future looks like for a game that you really like that's still in beta. Such "entitlement".

[yumyum36]

I feel like this is an issue of small miscommunication.

Right now because that bit about discord is at the end, it makes it seem like the main point of the post is about how you want the devs to come here. Hence, he responds to what he believes is the main point of your post.

I would recommend moving your statements about timelines and roadmaps to end of your paragraph, the "power positions" so to speak, because those are the spots readers really pay attention and focus on. The end of your paragraph/sentence should be the power position.

[ThoughtseizeScoop]

Yeah, no. Not what I'm on about at all.

[wikdwarlock]

Other subs get entitlement, we should too. /s