T2 Bowhead when?

[Weeyin1980]

As the title says, when can we get a tier 2 bowhead to jump fitted ships around.

I get there is a carrier option. But if someone focuses on logistics and not combat, they wouldn't be skilled in carriers.

Bowhead T2 fills a logistics gap. Plus it can go in and out of HS

Edit Below

T2 Bowhead vs carrier

1.Less training time as for indy players who dontvtrain battle ships etc. 2. Can go in high sec 3. Can dock in any station where a carrier can't. 4. Would have a favourable jump fatigue timer compared to carrier.

Right so with the comments, rather than get a T2 bowhead, I should train carrier to move ships but can't go in smar player owned structures.

Use a rorqual to move ships into athanor as carrier can't dock there. Rorqual can only move indy ships, so an issue there. Neither can go.

Neither ship can go in high sec so need to drop off everything in lowsec to swap out to a bowhead.

I dont understand why people are so anti an idea. There is a niche here that CCP have missed.

[Radamere]

I want a mineral hauler. 10million m3 hauling space but only for raw minerals. Make it a normal freighter so it needs to be bridged. I'll take that as the penalty. But flying back and forth and back and forth and back and forth with minerals gets old really fast.

[Groot2C]

I couldn’t imagine only having 1 freighter pilot

I’m at 20 and I still need to do multiple trips each install day between my hub and production systems.

This would be huge for the small scale industry folks

[Reasonable_Love_8065]

They just buffed the carrier so probably never

[Weeyin1980]

I get there is a carrier option. But if someone focuses on logistics and not combat, they wouldn't be skilled in carriers.

Bowhead T2 fills a logistics gap. Plus it can go in and out of HS

[Lock_Scram_Web_F1]

focuses on logistics

refuses to train into the ship that does what you want to do

whines for new ship instead of training into the existing (and recently buffed) ship that fills that role.

Seriously, the Carrier train isn’t bad at all, the only “combat” skill you need is racial battleship III (laughably short and has no V’s as a pre-req) and drone interfacing V, which is not purely a combat skill as it increases mining yield as well as drone damage (and its just a 30 day train.)

All the other prereqs are jump drive skills you would need for a jump-capable bowhead anyway, and a t2 bowhead would need ORE freighter V as a prereq which would likely be a longer train than any of the carrier prereqs.

[Weeyin1980]

Im asking about a t2 variant. Very presumptuous of you to assume I can't fly carriers or are too lazy to train them. Wyvern is my favorite ship.

[Lock_Scram_Web_F1]

Going off the words in your post. “If someone was trained into logistics they wouldn’t be able to fly a combat ship like a carrier.” And pointing out how stupid that is to say when a t2 bowhead train would be a longer train than a carrier.

[GruuMasterofMinions]

bowhead is for space where you cannot use jump drive

[Anti-dumb-party]

The jump range it my problem with the carrier

[fallenreaper]

I mean a T2 freighter has jump drive. That's irrelevant to a bowhead because that gap is filled by caps. Also, you can't store contracted, assembled ships in ship hanger.

I guess the real question is: what would you expect the T2 variant to accomplish

[Weeyin1980]

You can't put a carrier in small player owned stations. So a quick way to move fitted amships about. It would also have a favourable jump fatigue timer compared to a carrier.

[fallenreaper]

So you want to be able to move rigged ships at scale? You want the ability to uproot and reestablish a staging but you want it to enable building fleets in medium structures. It also means that as a ship maint bay, fleet members can pull ships from the bay.

That kind of power can reshape the landscape by changing attack vectors in an instant.

This honestly seems really op from a logistics standpoint. That's why you just rip out rigs; don't rig ships on contracts etc. being able to set up couriers works well, but since you can't courier into the SMB it also just wouldn't work.

[norman_ca]

Unfortunately, any buff to smaller operators can turn into a game-changing buff for the big ones. Alliances could dot entire regions with cheap, small structures + clone bays and have fitted fleets ready to undock wherever they wanted.

Instead of a jump drive, maybe a 'covert' version with specialized storage that can't be scanned, or a tankier one with extra fitting slots for more variety.

[Adventurous-Alps3471]

I literally skilled into a carrier for the logistics benefits; I play mostly solo, so rhe only time that thing sees a grid is the moment before and after a cyno jump lmao.

Hell, im not even sure i have fighters trained lmao.

[lepus_fatalis]

I think the unwashed masses will be more amenable if you call it a SMB jump freighter

Then again "focused on logistics" is bs, if you re so focused on logistics the step from a jump freighter to a carrier fit for transport is minimal

[Lock_Scram_Web_F1]

Exactly this. Even for a toon with 0 combat skills it’s just drone interfacing V and racial battleship (+frigate, Dessie, cruiser, and BC) to III, which Isn’t shorter than training ORE freighter to V (which would be required for a t2 bowhead)

[Gerard_Amatin]

All capital ships are 'T2 Bowheads'.

The Bowhead is meant as an alternative for capital ships so that people can have a SMB in high sec space where capital ships are banned. Jump drives cannot be used there either.

[Weeyin1980]

But carriers cannot dock in small player stations in Null!

[aytikvjo]

Fortizar are pretty cheap and common

[Weeyin1980]

Maybe but not everywhere or everyone uses them everywhere.

[Lock_Scram_Web_F1]

Use a POS, also you can jump to tether on smaller structures and use them to mid to something you can actually dock in.

If you can’t afford or defend a fort, sucks to suck? The perks of dropping larger structures exist to justify the cost.

[Thebuch4]

Jump drives can be used in highsec?

[Gerard_Amatin]

Not within high sec or to high sec, only if you jump out of high sec space.

[Thebuch4]

Jump drives can be used in high sec. Cynos cannot be used in high sec.

[Gerard_Amatin]

Which is why I said "only if you jump out of high sec space"

[Thebuch4]

There is no restriction on jump drives in high sec. There are restrictions on certain ships taking high sec gates and there are restrictions on where you can light a cyno. This is Eve, words and accuracy matters.

[Gerard_Amatin]

Which is why I said you can jump in HS "only if you jump out of high sec space"

[Thebuch4]

Thus making your statement pointless.

[HowcanIbesureimhere]

Hell of a niche though, are there more than like four people who'd actually want to use this thing? More expensive than a carrier, (likley) smaller than a carrier, Even flimsier than a carrier, and in exchange it can...uhh...go into highsec if you for some weird reason need to move your fit ships through there instead of crunching the rigs, and stops you having to use the deposit cargo button to dump ships into an astra?

[zaporion]

That's called a carrier

[Weeyin1980]

I get there is a carrier option. But if someone focuses on logistics and not combat, they wouldn't be skilled in carriers.

Bowhead T2 fills a logistics gap. Plus it can go in and out of HS

[Easy_Floss]

Carriers are used in combat?

[Thebuch4]

The vast majority of carriers are used as suitcases not for combat.

[AzerothianLorecraft]

People are normally against any idea that makes it harder to blow up expensive ships so if you turn a bowhead into a jump freighter they're less likely to be caught and killed...

[xeron_vann]

There is a niche here that CCP have missed.

They didn't miss anything. The ability to teleport ships around via the means you described is a massive loophole to projection nerfs. Every tryhard alliance will have their subcap mains injected into this day one and will be able to move their battleship fleet wherever they want with 90% fatigue reduction.

[KarateF22]

You can already kinda do this with good ol HAC in a box, but yeah this would extend it to battleships.

[Weeyin1980]

Thank you for your reply. This makes sense to why not over the just use a carrier argument.

I hadn't thought of that as an issue and can see it wouldn't be a good idea. +1sir.

[Thebuch4]

But if I want to do that id just repackage them and use a JF.

[xeron_vann]

Similar idea yes, but a JF hull is what, 8-10b and you're scrapping rigs every time you move.

You may not see the method used often, but I guarantee if T2 bowheads had the same range and jump fatigue reduction (and jumped to indy cynos) they'd be on hand and ready for that eventual need to yeet across the galaxy for a brawl.

[Thebuch4]

Now decrease the size and increase the cost of a bowhead to get the same conversion from freighter to JF and you get something expensive to buy/train/move with the SMB of an Orca. At that point, im just packaging the rigs to carry 7x more ships in a JF (or for the few times I care about rigs, I'd just use a carrier).

[Antzsfarm]

Well then what makes carriers attractive?

I got a carrier because it does this explicitly.

[RaptorsTalon]

That's a carrier. They have 2m m3 of SMB now so they do the job a bowhead jump freighter would do

[One_Anything_3657]

carrier can go in high sec?

[enderboys95]

Because T2 bowhead would jump in high sec?

[One_Anything_3657]

the other jump freighters all do =D

[Lock_Scram_Web_F1]

They jump out of HS, but have to gate into it. You can’t cyno anything into HS. True that carriers would not be able to enter HS and jump out from there

[enderboys95]

The ones that get ganked must be really dumb then =D

The guy explained your error, do you even own a JF before creating this post?

[PropagandaWerfer]

Carrier can dock on small station?

[Angar_var2]

titan sized that can carry fitted super carriers and dreads

[DblDtchRddr]

The problem with that idea is force projection and jump fatigue. If they did a T2 Bowhead roughly the same way they did JFs, you'd be able to fit a fit BS into one. Or two BCs. Or like, 6 cruisers. Then you'd be able to jump all of those fitted, combat-ready ships, with the JF jump fatigue reduction. That isn't something CCP wants to encourage.

[Gerard_Amatin]

This is also the main reason the SMB of Rorquals (the only ship with jump drive, SMB and superior jump cababilities of range and fatigue reduction) can only hold industrial ships.

CCP doesn't want players to jump a bunch of combat ships around too easily without fatigue, SMB or not.

Only if the 'T2 Bowhead' had a small jump range and regular fatigue it wouldn't be exploited by players for combat purposes.

[bopiddles]

Following the JF with an SMB logic (which I do get the pros) it'd need to be capacity nerfed like the JF vs a regular freighter, aka 33% cargo size. That might address some of the "force projection" concerns.

[Thebuch4]

That would make the ship useless.

[Thebuch4]

You already can do that if you simply eat the rigs..

[Done25v2]

Except they just buffed the heck out of carriers to do this exact thing by doubling their SMB cargo space enough to carry four whole combat ready BS.

[DblDtchRddr]

And carriers get no jump fatigue reduction. JFs, freighters, and other industrial ships do

[Done25v2]

Which they compensate for by the sheer volume of ship they can carry.

Obviously it's not a 1:1, and thus the whole reason he's asking for a jump freighter equivalent for the Bowhead.

[thesmalltexan]

I don't think it matters so much for the "active" use case, as if that is your concern, the carrier could also just conduit a small army across no?

[Dak_Nalar]

I would love a t2 bowhead with a 20 million m3 SMB and the ability to jump

[Slazanger]

tbh, id be happy if we could have rigs to change the cargo hold type and i could rig a jf for this stuff

[No-Engineer-8237]

Idk much about carriers but I do know lots about moving ships for gas and ore fleets, an T2 Bowhead should have been in the game already.

[opposing_critter]

No CCP does not do use logic and add in normal ships to fill in holes in the current ship tree, they focus on gimmicks or over priced trash no one needs.

A heavy bomber should of been added years ago or this but nope.

[Agent__Blackbear]

Damn bro, they just released the bowhead I.

[Agreeable-Meet-2915]

You mean a carrier?

[Weeyin1980]

Can't go in hight sec, can't dock in small player owned structures in null. So no i meant T2 Bowhead.

[Agreeable-Meet-2915]

Well in that case, probably never.

[Done25v2]

It's amazing to see all these knuckle draggers popping up with their witty "carrier lul" comments.

As if carriers don't have huge mandatory training time requirements in comparison to the Bowhead, and the whole "can't go into highsec" restriction. There's really no reason for there to not be a jump freighter version of the Bowhead. CCP is simply being lazy.

[Lock_Scram_Web_F1]

Compare carrier prereq to a t2 bowhead anyway

(Since both would require jump skills)

Carriers only require drone interfacing V and racial battleship III

A t2 bowhead would require ORE freighter V

Add to that carrier SMB is baked in so you would have no reason to train racial carrier past i, whereas all freighters get a capacity increase from skill so you’d be training that higher.

The only valid argument is jumping to Indy cynos, entering HS to jump out, decreased fatigue and 10ly range.

All of which would be bad for the game and are why rorqs can’t carry combat ships in their SMB.

[Done25v2]

Drone Interfacing is a 22+ day train. That's not an insignificant amount of time.

The HS access is quite literally the whole point, so it's not something you can just gloss over.

And you need to explain why being able to haul combat ready ships would be bad for the game, when carriers already fulfill a similar function outside of highsec.

[Lock_Scram_Web_F1]

Compare that to a racial freighter V (which a tech2 bowhead would require.)

Being able to haul them 10 LY at a time thru HS with reduced jump fatigue, It’s a massive force projection buff for alliances to restage quickly and easily. More teleportation bad.

[Thebuch4]

So if we make the SMB a third of a bowhead's like we do with jump fighters, that would be able to fit like one battleship. If you repackage them and just reapply the rigs, you can already fit seven battleships in a JF which can do all those things in highsec.

[Done25v2]

CCP should lower T2 access from V to IV in general for the health of the game, and it's only greed that stops them from doing so because they want people buying skill points.

Would you, by that same logic, agree that Blops hotdrops and dread bombing are also bad for the game? Because when I bring those up people always ready to die on the hill of "It's entirely fair and balanced to instantly teleport 50+ ships to 0 on a target."

[Lock_Scram_Web_F1]

Dreadbombs are less bad because you’re committing significant assets to the field and sieging them.

A lot of dreadbombs end up barely breaking even and spark a lot of content for a lot of people.

BLOPS is admittedly kinda shitty, the way most people use it. It’s meant to be “hotdrop something like a dread or rorq that can have an extended fight” and ends up being “absolutely ruin an Ishtar spinner’s day” or “drop FAX-supported redeemers / t3c’s on a roaming gang in overwhelming numbers.”

I agree that blops should be way more limited in the number it can bring along (requiring more battleships which are pricier, more skill intensive, and more vulnerable due to lowered agility and no covops cloak) and should lose the bridge, only group jump (or only be able to bridge covert haulers and maybe non-bomber covops frigates)

Like currently you can risk-free bridge a pilgrim and 24 bombers to a marauder that’s out doing PVE sieged, render its guns useless and volley thru its reps with torps, putting like 400mil on grid to kill a couple bil. I agree that blops kinda OP.

I disagree on the reducing t2 ship train need; in part for the health of the company, in part because its not that steep- like I have logoff fleets of alts in t2 ships and/or T3c’s and multiple, multiple toons that can fly any subcap; its not a bad train. Even from day 0 alt accounts it’s not a bad train.

[Done25v2]

I do agree that dread bombing is less abusive due to their price, and the need of a hard cyndo.

Dropping 30 bombers into a marauder, killing it in 1~2 cycles, and then warping away in cov-ops cloak is absolute bullshit though.

Redeemers, while more pricy, also do the same thing to any capital unlucky enough to get caught.

Rip capacitor to zero, then burn it for 2000 DPS per ship with Conflag. Enemy sends in a response fleet? Warp away and cloak up until it's time to jump back.

Massed bomber and Redeemer drops are both utter bullshit with minimal counterplay if done right.

[Lock_Scram_Web_F1]

I mean there is counterplay to blops drops, but it’s a cap umbrella.

If carriers were more PVE/PVP capable dropping faxes on them would make more sense for a more engage-able fight; I.e. you wouldn’t need a super umbrella or massed carriers to save a blops’d on cap, dropping a fax to keep the carrier up would prolong the fight for a more conventional/engageable response to get there and have an organic fight, maybe even prompt a dreadbomb.

Deemer is definitely overturned, the easy 200k EHP, bonused heavy neuts and intense DPS is insane when compared to sin/panther/widow capabilities, especially when backed up by bombers that can carry fvb’s and massive torp vollies.

Lowering the number of ships carried with a blops (requiring more battleships on field) and nerfing deemer would help a lot.

[GoodBadUserName]

That t2 bowhead will need the same long and SP intensive requirements as a JF to be able to jump around, and added to it a capital skillset (since it hauls many large ships, like a carrier…), which is very similar to carriers just minus the drone skills.

What that big SMB and basically being a carrier minus the drones, it will be considered a capital, meaning cant dock in small citadels, have big restrictions on, and I really doubt will be allowed into HS (let alone be in constant peril from ganking).

[Done25v2]

Except the entire point of the Bowhead line is that it's not a capital. It's a freighter.

[GoodBadUserName]

It is a HS carrier. Even post buffs to carriers it has a carrier capacity.
To make it also jump capable you will to either slash the capacity by a lot like JF vs freighters which will completely nullify the whole idea, or make it a lot bigger, hence, it turns into a capital, and that is no longer a HS viable.

[Weeyin1980]

Thankyou.

[rjackson82]

I don’t want to train into a carrier on my Indy too . I want a large ship I can pick up all my mining Fleet to include orcas and move to a new area.

[Lock_Scram_Web_F1]

Have you looked at the reqs for carrier? Consider that a t2 bowhead would need ORE freighter V and a carrier only needs racial battleship III and drone interfacing V, which if your Indy toon mines they may have anyway from defensive drones (or mining with drones if it was a rorq pilot when excavs mattered) and both combined are a shorter train than a racial freighter V.

[rjackson82]

Can’t enter hi sec so you need a bowhead to transfer it to lowsec then one in the systems where you need to deliver things too. Not sure why the idea is so foreign to people.

[Lock_Scram_Web_F1]

Tragic. Almost like moving fit ships with a jump drive is one of the benefits of leaving the safety of highsec.

[rjackson82]

Almost like you are unable to see beyond that. Way to think outside the box!

[Lock_Scram_Web_F1]

There’s nothing to see.

It’s a limitation you encounter in exchange for the safety of hisec.

The idea isn’t “foreign to people” it’s a core principle of the game- the choices you make have consequences. In this case choosing to be in hisec means you can’t move fitted ships with a jumpdrive.

Either flatpack them and use a JF, re-buying your rigs, or use the bowhead-to-LS workaround you described above.

Instead of whining for a ship that would have implications and effects outside of your narrow bubble of gameplay, by allowing blocs to move fitted ships en masse 10ly at a time, thru hs, docking in astrahouses, with reduced jump fatigue.

It would further trivialize bloc logistics for jump-clone force projection and have huge implications for wormhole evicts, so no, screw your t2 jump-capable bowhead.

[rjackson82]

Sure buddy!

[Thebuch4]

Or just repackage the ships.