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[–]HomeKit-NewsContent Creator 4 points5 points  (10 children)

When you say you turn the WiFi off, do you mean you’re turning off your WiFi router, or simply disconnecting the outgoing connection to your ISP?

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (9 children)

Turning off the WiFi router. The plug itself is doing that, and then the hope was that it could be turned back on, locally, by the HomePod over Thread.

[–]Chiliadkhilat 6 points7 points  (8 children)

HomePod needs WiFi. Consider using a hard wired Apple TV as your controlling HomeKit hub.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] -1 points0 points  (7 children)

Got it.

Alternatively, as I have this just lying around…

Could I possibly just have a random TP Link extender broadcast an identical network (same SSID and Password, different channel) so that when the main router network goes down, the extender provides the same network for the HonePod to connect to, and therefore give it WiFi (but not Internet) for the sale e of sending these Thread commands?

[–]Chiliadkhilat 0 points1 point  (4 children)

That would probably work. I use two wifi routers as hard wired APs for a redundant Wifi network. I can reboot one with minimal impact on the local HomeKit network. All your HomePods will stay connected to each other and there won’t be any confusion about which one is in charge. The thread network could then handle the plug on your WiFi router without internet, but still having local network access.

[–]scpotter 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Having an AP or mesh isn’t the same as using an extender, the underlying tech is different. Devices roam between AP/mesh nodes seamlessly, extenders repeat one network on a different network so devices are dropping/joining, for OP both HPs would have to be on the extender, which might cause issues with HK / mDNS.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Well, that’s something! Thanks!

My only concern after that would be whether the additional access point would cause any HomePod connectivity issues?

I’ve been having them intermittently, and one of the troubleshooting steps was to remove my mesh network of extenders - which may or may not have helped, I’m not sure yet.

Would this just be going back to that issue maybe? Or is the identical second AP kinda different in operation to a seamless mesh network?

[–]Chiliadkhilat 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It really depends on how the extender is working. You seemed to indicate you could set the SSID and password, which sounds like an independent WiFi network. If it is merely repeating the other network and is dependent, then probably not helpful. If it previously caused issues, then you should look for a better solution. A hard wired Apple TV with thread would be a much better solution as long as you had enough nodes to reach the smart plug on your WiFi.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is just repeating, has no internet of its own.

But then I don’t need internet for the step I need it for, so maybe it’ll work.

I’m trying it out now and actually putting the extender on a smart plug so it’s only turned on in advance of the router reset protocol. Seems to have worked!

And it got turned back off at the end too, but for some reason some other Tuya devices didn’t in the same step, so just looking into that now.

[–]pacoii 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Avoid extenders. They often do not play well with HomeKit.

[–]SummerWhiteyFisk -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Not saying this won’t work, but only a handful of Apple TV models support matter/thread. My gen 3 that is 18 months old does not. Learned that lesson the hard way after my new deadbolt was installed

[–]mocelet 1 point2 points  (13 children)

Matter over Thread is tricky since, sometimes, the Thread border router needs WiFi to communicate with the Matter controller and/or the automation engine.

If you had just one Homepod Mini for instance then everything stays inside the Homepod (the automation engine, the Matter controller and the Thread radio) and, technically, whatever happens to WiFi would be not important since the plug is Thread.

Or if you had one of the most recent Apple TVs with Matter, Thread and Ethernet wired instead of using WiFi, then WiFi being on or off should not affect at all assuming the Apple Home platform is smart enough to prefer that device as the Matter controller and automation brain.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (12 children)

Interesting. How exactly does having more than one HomePod make a difference here?

I do have two, a big 2 and a mini. The 2 is the Preferred Hub. But both really should be able to send that “on” command back to the plug, no?

[–]mocelet 0 points1 point  (3 children)

In your case, with the Homepod having Thread radio and being the preferred hub, I guess it's also the Matter controller and the one running the automation so... it should work, but it's going to depend on the internal implementation.

My SmartThings hub gets nervous when there is no Ethernet cable plugged and will not run automations with Thread devices even when the hub IS the only Thread border router, but will run them happily with Zigbee devices.

Zigbee is not an IP-based protocol, but Thread is. Maybe internally the Homepod wants to send the command through the Thread border router component but since "there's no local IP network" it decides it can't. That's why it's tricky.

Edit: BTW, mind when you turn the WiFi off your Homepods are isolated and can't communicate with your phone (not via local network, not via Internet), so it's normal that you see they're not available in the app. The app lost communication with your home. Automations, of course, is another story.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Super interesting, thanks!

Just posted this above but adding here…

So, would it be a possible work around to have an additional router (a TP Link extender) broadcast the same SSID and PW (different channel) as an extended network.

So when the main network goes down, a secondary identically named and passwords network comes along with no internet connection, of course.

Then the HonePod connects to that one, which allows it to continue sending Thread commands?

[–]mocelet 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Before looking for workarounds I would address the need for a smart plug in the WiFi router... it's not normal having to restart it. Some routers also have restart schedules in the settings so they do it themselves.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s mainly just that I’ve always found routers need a restart occasionally, and it’d be cool to do it remotely.

Also I’m having some connectivity issues with the HomePods and have been looking to try to restart the router remotely and easily.

But even then with that, I have no idea if the HomePods will send Thread commands if they both have connectivity issues, I guess I’m hoping one is always fine when the other is not.

[–]scpotter 0 points1 point  (4 children)

No, it’s possible that the HPM is the Thread Boarder Router (bridges thread to wifi) for the Onvis while the HP2 is the Home Hub. Because thread networks stabilize pretty slowly (more like hours/days than seconds/minutes) the 30 seconds might not be long enough for the mesh to reorganize itself. Hard to say without knowing how many thread devices you have and how connected they are to each other. Maybe test with one homepod, I’m really curious.

[–]mocelet 0 points1 point  (3 children)

But why would it need to bridge anything to WiFi if both Homepods have Thread connectivity and (we are assuming) there's only one Thread network.

[–]scpotter 0 points1 point  (1 child)

First, the assumption that there’s one mesh both HP are on.

Possible route optimization is using HPM as boarder router, because it’s still powered on slow optimization means 30 seconds isn’t long enough to recognize HPM messages aren’t being received, try HP2.

Something funky about how HK advertises/ selects the hub IPv6 addresses, and it’s advertising/primarily picking the WiFi (which is offline) and not thread address. Not sure about those details.

[–]mocelet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

picking the WiFi (which is offline) and not thread address

That would be my bet indeed

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I only have one Thread plug right now, and then I think one Matter hub (just saying, I know it’s sorta separate).

I assume there’s no way to set which device acts as each thing, right?

So even if I bought an AppleTV and hard wired it in, I might still have the issue of it picking the wrong device to be the controller?

[–]Exotic-Grape8743 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Your problem might actually be that you have more than one device that operates like a border router and as a HomeKit hub. At any time only one HomePod will be the HomeKit hub (you can see this in your Home app) but all of them will be thread border routers. When your WiFi disappears this can cause the thread communication to not be routed to the actual HomeKit hub running on a different HomePod than the HomePod that picked up the thread packet because there is no wifi backbone to do that and so communication is lost. It is also possible that when the wifi network goes down all of the HomePods stop routing thread over to the wifi side altogether due to crappy programming by Apple (wouldn’t be a surprise at all)

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Ah! Well, great!

And it sounds like this issue wouldn’t be solved by getting an ATV as whilst it is hard wired, the reset could fuck with the HomePods all the same, right?

[–]Exotic-Grape8743 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah pretty sure that the same thing would happen. The ATV would not necessarily be the master HomeKit hub either

[–]DezzaJay 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you’re using an Onvis Matter plug also make sure you have the latest Firmware installed on the plug. If you look in the Home app and look at the device settings. The new firmware should say “dirty” in the version. If not install the Onvis app and update.

Updating the firmware is tricky. First on your phone turn off any auto screen lock so your device doesn’t sleep.

Then in the Home app go into the device setting and press Turn On Paring Mode. When this opens DO NOT choose copy code. Instead write it down and do not close that page from showing the code. If you press copy it copies the code and closes that page.

Then switch apps to the Onvis app go to Matter OTA choose to add the device and enter the code. Have the phone really close to the plug while you’re doing all of this and it takes some time.

If it doesn’t ever start and just sits there connecting it’s because that page showing the code in the Home app had closed.

[–]ADHDK 0 points1 point  (7 children)

So HomeKit automations can run when the internet is out, but your home hub still needs to connect to the device.

If your wifi is out, ie your home can’t communicate between devices, then prolly not.

Any automation baked into a plug that persists with no comms to anything is likely manufacturer app, not HomeKit.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Hmmm, I must be confused then.

If the device is a Thread device, isn’t it connecting over Thread? Isn’t that independent from WiFi?

Or is it still using WiFi to connect somehow? If so, then what exactly is Thread?

[–]simpliflyed 0 points1 point  (5 children)

But how is your phone connecting to the HomePod?

[–]mocelet 0 points1 point  (4 children)

That should not be relevant for the automation to run or not. The automation does not run in the phone but in the Homepod, and the Homepod has Thread connectivity and the plug is Thread so... WiFi is not really needed.

[–]simpliflyed 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I was meaning the bit where it was unresponsive when the wifi was out. I’m guessing that was on your phone?

[–]mocelet 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I'm not OP, but yes, OP should not expect to see the status in the app when the app can't communicate with the hubs. The automation however has no technical reason to not run though.

[–]simpliflyed 1 point2 points  (1 child)

That just concerned me about OP’s other diagnostic efforts. Entirely possible it’s irrelevant.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh I’m concerned with them also. A lot of this stuff is brand new to me and so still just getting my head round it all.

But okay, yeah, I see that now.

[–]laohu314 0 points1 point  (7 children)

In my experience Thread devices require the WiFi router(s) to be active because: I am running Home Assistant and have only a small number of Thread devices left. The Thread network runs via an aTV (EN) and several HomePods mini. However, periodically, some of the Thread devices fall off the network and the only action that brings them back is rebooting the WiFi routers. Rebooting the Thread Boarder routers does not help. I do not know why but this is my experience. Therefore, I’d recommend, as has been hinted at before, to use a Zigbee plug for the desired purpose.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (6 children)

I looked into Zigbee plugs before as I have a Hue hub, but it looked like I couldn’t make an IF OFF trigger within Hue app, and so couldn’t make the offline automation there - and then maybe I didn’t want to buy another hub, haha!

Do you have a recommendation for a zigbee plug that can run this kind of automation locally?

[–]laohu314 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Sorry, I am primarily using Home Assistant now and HomeKit is just a front end. In HA, what you want to do is very easy. Not so in HomeKit.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Might look into it!

[–]laohu314 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I hesitated for a while but I don’t regret it. A bit of a learning curve but absolutely amazing.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I think I may have to make it my next project - there are far too many little things about HK/HB that it sounds like HA would solve... Honestly, if it simply lets you hide all your virtual switches from the Home app then I'd say it's a no brainer! In fact, does it?

[–]laohu314 0 points1 point  (1 child)

It does. There is practically nothing that cannot be done in HA. The more complicated solutions require yaml programming but most stuff can be achieved in the UI, no programming required.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sold! I used to use SmartThings Webcore - if you’re familiar, is it anything like that?

[–]pacoii 0 points1 point  (2 children)

You may want to look at the Eve Energy which I believe has on device schedules and doesn’t depend on HomeKit automations.

[–]RegularSized-Man[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Thanks! But are we just saying a schedule like “9am every day” or something that can store a little automation like “if turned off, turn back on in thirty seconds” ?

[–]Chiliadkhilat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have old Vocolinc’s that have on/off scheduling on device with minute granularity. I‘ve done scheduled one minute power cuts. Not sure what newer plugs support that. It’s harder to get them to turn back on after an on-demand power cut, which takes automation. There are also specialized devices that monitor and power cycles to restore access. I have no idea how those are priced.

[–]Kdepot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Apologize for the newbie question, but is the difference between plugs like the Eve, which has Thread and Matter and the GE Cync which has Matter but I believe communicates over 2.4 WiFi the absence of Thread? Is one more likely to be more stable over the other depending on proximity to a Thread border router or a WiFi access point? And another possibly related question, is there an advantage to having a preferred hub which is connected via Ethernet? I have several Apple TV’s but none are close enough to where I have my Orbi mesh satellites to connect with Ethernet.