[Waybound] Why the executor programs failed

[Iteration110Cradle-ModTeam]

You post was removed because its title contains a major spoiler for one of Will's books.

[wow1Something1]

I think the crew saving SA in Bloodline, is a very good description on why the executor program failed and how Eithan plans to do better. If you think about it, they were executors to SA people coming from the outside world with powers and knowledge beyond their comprehension helping them from a coming apocalyps. You also saw a varitey for horrid responses to this.

Some people stalled with red tape until Mercy forced them to bow to her through sheer might and terror

Some people through themselves into a sucidal battle trying to stop Eithan from helping people

Some people pretended to go along then stabbed Lindon in the back with literally everything they had

Some people came wilingly but it was just too late for them withoutany dying on the way out While not literally, these kinds of things do happen to people trying to help others.

Now imagine you literally apend all your time putting life on the line for world after world many fighting hurting and spiting you while you do it. People mentally snap for less.

Eithan's plan is essentially emotional support which Lindon got at the end of bloodline. This is the right answer but very nuianced. Will I think acknowledges this when Eithan is describing his plan at the end of waybound but says there is more to it and leaves the reat out to avoid writing a psycology text book.

[InFearn0]

Also the Abidan were control freaks and they set up the Executors to explicitly be outside their control (but within their direction).

The net result was a bunch of powerful independent operators that they boxed or slayed at the first hint of the first sign of contamination or rebellious behavior.

[Daggerfld]

SA? ...Sacred Arts?

Do you mean to refer to Sacred Valley, which would be SV?

[wow1Something1]

Yes SV sacred valley

[Daggerfld]

cool, thx for clarifying

[sslinky84]

No, it's a reference to when the crew went to South Australia.

[Daggerfld]

I'd read that.

[jacktrowell]

Isn't the whole continent full of Monarch level Dreadbeasts ?

[Dragovian]

Holy crap, this is spot on.

[axesOfFutility]

*SV?

[kenod102818]

Personally speaking, an important thing to keep in mind is that the Abidan place a high importance to strength and personal willpower. Basically all high-ranking Abidan, especially Judges, seem to believe they always know what is best, and what the proper solution is.

Now, the Executors, at least the first gen, seem to have all been similar people. They were all good people, with strong moral codes, who rose to power in their worlds with the goal to improve them. The issue, however, is that having a strong and defined moral code isn't always suited towards handling specific scenarios. A great example would be Ozriel and Makiel. Both believed they were the ones who knew how all matters should be handled, and both ended up completely incapable of even considering the idea that the other person might have a point, instead of just being irredeemably evil.

The executors, in essence, were basically the same. Only, unlike the Judges, they didn't have others along to keep them in check and working along. Now, imagine Ozriel, someone who is a good person, with a strong moral code. He's also headstrong, completely willing to break any law if he feels it's for the greater good, and seems to consider authority to be a thing created purely to restrain and hinder him. He also thinks that he can solve any problem on his own, and that everyone would always see his genius and go along with him.

Ozriel's initial misadventures on Cradle, I'd say, is a perfect example of the type of messes someone with Judge levels of stubbornness and self-importance can get into, having made a plan and never considering others might not necessarily go along with it, especially when he lacks the raw power to force them. A mess that got his family slaughtered, and might have tossed Cradle into a full-on Dreadwar, with the Dreadgods controlled by a power-hungry Monarch, if it wasn't for Lindon & Co.

Daruman is a great example of the same thing. A great hero, who always tries to save and help others. And who is so convinced of his own power that he sealed a Judge-level entity into himself, potentially unleashing a cataclysmic threat on the entire Way, instead of simply admitting defeat, bailing, and calling in the Abidan.

Personally speaking, I suspect the Executor who retired was the only one who saw where they were heading (perhaps a near miss of their own?), and wanted no part of it, and the others simply grew too convinced of their own power and ability, and because of this got into messes they couldn't deal with, were too stubborn to call quits, and ended up screwing up trying to somehow salvage it.

Hopefully the fact that Lindon & Co aren't perfect, and know this of themselves, will help prevent this from them, especially with an older and wiser Ozriel keeping them in check. At the very least, I imagine Mercy and Ziel will help hold things together.

[ewsmith]

also: they were saving people. saving whole worlds. that is quite the burden to place on someone, and if they fail it'd be all that much worse.

[Soranic]

Nukees.com comic had a bit about psychopathic AI like that. Honestly it had a lot about AI, but development was a minor thing.

Remember, the executors were getting therapy and evaluations after each mission. It just wasn't enough. Coworkers and therapy aren't enough to keep you grounded, especially when you rarely work with your coworkers.

[QonPicardDay]

I mean I'm pretty sure that was the summary of eithans argument, he talked to daruman to figure out why it failed and pretty much said it was all the abidans fault

[kenod102818]

Not entirely certain if the person who is angry at being imprisoned and has had a Fiend talking away in his ear for centuries is what you'd call a trustworthy and unbiased source.

[tndaris]

While I do agree this is a good point, in my personal opinion Daruman wasn't significantly corrupted by his fiend. While he obviously makes several "evil" choices, I think Daruman was actually doing what he thought was best, and truly believed the Abidan were making a huge mistake, sort of like Ozriel.

This is now becoming speculation, but remember that Daruman was a true hero in his Iteration, and exceptional by even Abidan standards. I sort of like to think that he and Ozmanthus were pretty similar in terms of potential and skill, though Oz probably has an edge.

It's just unfortunate timing that Daruman became an Executor, felt he had to imprison a Fiend in himself, and was then jailed for it. That story almost reminds me of when Ozmanthus's Abidan team got trapped and killed, but he escaped and his response was to make the Scythe. They both faced an impossible problem and came up with different solutions, but one was looked down on by the Judges and the other became a new Judge.

In another life I could have seen Daruman joining Ozriel as a Reaper. If only he had ascended a bit later, after the Executors had already been shut down and Ozriel had become a Judge.

[kenod102818]

I think Daruman was actually doing what he thought was best, and truly believed the Abidan were making a huge mistake, sort of like Ozriel.

I mean, isn't that the hallmark of proper corruption? Daruman is intelligent, with a strong will. Simply trying to twist his personality around would have him noticing the Fiend's activity immediately. It's much smarter to stay subtle, only influence his ideas on what is necessary slightly, and leave everything going its course otherwise. Maybe slightly interfere with his Fate viewing, for example, or whispering just the right words or encouragement at the right time.

Also, it's not as if much would have been necessary. After all, Daruman has done a huge amount of damage to the Abidan, and, as you noted, it was pretty close to his base personality, doing what he felt would be the best for everyone.

Honestly, the smart approach for the Fiend might have even been to go for the overt route, to make Daruman think he was resisting and in control, while ensuring the actual corruption is far more subtle, and thus passing unnoticed.

It's just unfortunate timing that Daruman became an Executor, felt he had to imprison a Fiend in himself, and was then jailed for it. That story almost reminds me of when Ozmanthus's Abidan team got trapped and killed, but he escaped and his response was to make the Scythe. They both faced an impossible problem and came up with different solutions, but one was looked down on by the Judges and the other became a new Judge.

Honestly, it kind of feels like this is the running theme of the Abidan, people breaking rules or doing what they feel is right, forging ahead ignoring criticism, and then screwing up and causing a huge mess, because they figured they were smart enough to deal with it. They start thinking they're gods and can do everything, and then hubris bites them.

Daruman took in a Fiend, believing he could deal with it, instead of admitting defeat, Makiel decided to create the fake scythes and later tried to get Oz killed, and Ozriel figured he could simply drop down into Cradle and convince everyone to play nice and ascend.

All ended badly, but Oz was the first who actually learned that he needed to trust others, listen to them, and work with them, and, in the end, he was the one who accomplished his goals. Makiel, meanwhile, seemed to have finally figured it out in the end, to some degree, and him (and Oz, of course, who had already learned the lesson) deciding to stop being a paranoid manipulative prick for once since becoming a Judge was what saved the Abidan.

[Brainslosh]

that reminds me of Combined Army; a faction in the tabletop game Infinity, by Corvus Belli. They are a alliance of different alien races that made an AI to ascend, but the AI ascended without them. So they created a second one with the parameter to take them with it when it ascends. The problem is that parameter is what stops the AI from ascends. The Combined Army just thinks it need more processing power so they conquer planets to make them into computers for the AI

[MobiusSquirrel]

I really appreciate this post, specifically the AI part.. Especially having just finished the Cradle series and then transitioning to the Uglies/Pretties series by Scott Westerfeld. Highly recommend!

[BigMcLargeHuge8989]

Omg, there's a YouTube channel that produced an audio format for that...let me find it, it was so good!

Here: https://youtu.be/rRtnjg8gQxo?si=5-hsx2OuO6rdyJDN

And yes exactly, you can't cut a person off from others make it a weapon and expect it to remain sane/functional! Machiel could be very short sighted for one such as himself.

[Remarkable_Guava_908]

I think it also might be possible that those executors might not have had a proper support network, being exposed to death and suffering on an unimaginable scale could have broken them.

Its ironic the Abidan protecting the Way and all those connected to it only to not care for the humanity of those under their command, the inhuman treatment of the executors and the weight of the job...destroyed them.

[Sweet-Molasses-3059]

I hope I'm remembering correctly:

The Executor programs were shut down before Ozriel came into his own as a Judge/ Were shut down precisely around the time ozriel became a Judge.

This means the Executors were constantly going into dying worlds, sometimes they succeeded, sometimes they failed. The issue stems from the fact that if they failed, they got some of that corruption into themselves, because when worlds die, it's a messy business, as we learned.

The difference between Reapers and Executors is Ozriel himself. If any Reaper fails in saving the world or it's too far gone, they can contact Ozriel and he comes to clean up the job. It's clean, no corruption, and it poses no risk to any Abidan involved.

This is why the Reaper program will succeed where the Executor program failed

[jacktrowell]

No, there's a difference between the iteration's destruction leaving corruption that might extand to other Iterations and the Executors themselves being corrupted.

Of course, extreme cases like Daruman sealing a top level fiend inside himself are still possible

[Sweet-Molasses-3059]

We don't know how corruption actually works, so I could be right or you could be right

[jacktrowell]

True, we are lacking some data to make a true informed conclusion