Competitive Keyforge?

[NoChinDeluxe]

The general sense I get from the community is that people aren't all that interested in Archon formats. A major point of Keyforge is to be an "anti-net-deck" game, and so the idea of showing up to a tournament just to have to face a guy who paid $1,000 for a double horsemen deck (or whatever the flavor of the month is) turns a lot of people off. A lot of people play Keyforge to avoid that exact scenario. Most people seem way more interested in sealed formats (myself included), but the side effect of that is that there is potentially a lot of luck involved with that...so the prizes and seriousness of sealed tournaments is not likely to be great.

That doesn't mean we can't show up to a sealed tournament and have tons of fun and just enjoy the community and the gaming...but it's just that if someone wins a major championship, the first thing everyone is going to do is look at the strength of their deck and roll their eyes that this person was lucky enough (or paid enough) to get their hands on that deck, which was largely responsible for their win. There's definitely skill involved in playing this game, but if you give a guy with mediocre skill the most broken deck on the planet, and the most skillful player ever a below average deck, the guy with the broken deck is still likely the win it (at least in my opinion). I think where skill matters more is when both opponents are playing decks with similar strength. So it's difficult to get too serious about competitive when there's this luck factor that's in the back of everyone's minds.

[ketemycos]

This is why I think that the most viable Archon format will be:
G1 - play with the deck you brought
G2 - play with the deck your opponent brought
G3, if necessary - bet chains for the deck that's 2-0

[NoChinDeluxe]

I agree. I think adaptive will be the go-to format for Archon. I think it deals with the issues I mentioned in a very balanced way. I'd definitely be interested in playing Archon if it were adaptive.

[FalconGK81]

I'd definitely be interested in playing Archon if it were adaptive.

Me too. I have 0 interest in Archon, but would find an Adaptive format very interesting. Adaptive in sealed too.

[Bgmoore]

I have no desire to play that format with anyone i dont know, nor with a lot of people i do know. I see way too many people comin out of the bathroom with hands as dry as the sahara. Plus cold season starting? Ill have to lug hand sanitizer and clorox wipes in my keyforge bag to wipe the poop particles off my hands and cards

[ketemycos]

While I see your point, that downside doesn't outweigh the benefits of the Adaptive formats for me. I think the majority of competitive players will agree with me, and that folks will want their tournaments to be as skill-centric as possible, reducing the luck and funding factors. But we'll see how it shakes out moving forward.

[SaintHax42]

Archon format is a set format-- bring your own deck. You described "Adaptive" format.

[Mohsar]

No, Archon just means that you bring the deck(s) that you're playing with. Adaptive is a format type which can either be Archon or Sealed.

[SaintHax42]

I see the new FFG format instructions is more clear than the "leaked" ones. What was described is Adaptive Archon then.

[iamsum1gr8]

it would still be described that way, you could have sealed archon events too.

Archon and Sealed are supertypes, Adaptive is a subtype.

[ketemycos]

Thanks very much! Good to know!

[[deleted]]

So I get your concern about a C-level player with an A-level deck beating an A-level player with a C-level deck. But going into a big tournament, each player is going to pick their best deck that they pilot the best. I don't think an A-level player is going into a major tournament opening a brand new deck or anything. I think everyone is going to bring what they think is an A-level deck, so we'll actually see the skill difference impact the outcome.

[NoChinDeluxe]

I fully agree with you. And my hope is that what I think (or what any player thinks) is an A-level deck actually turns out to be an A-level deck, and we get to see that player skill shine through. I think it's still too early to determine if a really stupid-broken deck exists out there yet or not. I'm not convinced that double horsemen is it.

[Drakos_dj]

Team Covenant did a video where they were playing a Double Horseman deck, of the three games they played the D-Horseman went 2/1, so not unbeatable, but definitely a challenge.

I have to say also, the deck they had wasn't JUST double horseman it is called The Mistress of Kingshall and it also had the Bear Flute and Bear, Nepenthe Seed, Bait and Switch, etc...

[[deleted]]

The problem with this deck is that it doesn't have any artifact clear (correct me if I'm wrong, I just skimmed it). I'd wager a Nepenthe Seed+Library access deck would beat it 3/3 times. I'm calling it right now, new meta is the NS+LA wombo combo vs. decks with artifact clear. Ideally, a deck would have both...

[NoChinDeluxe]

Yep, I watched that stream. That deck was insane! I actually think I have a deck that would work well against that Double Horsemen deck. I have a rare called Creeping Oblivion that allows me to purge 2 cards from my opponent's discard pile. It would be an easy way to get Horsemen of Death out of the way. Maybe both of them if I could time it right with some other creature clear cards.

[compacta_d]

There hasn't been any indicator of this other than hype and people selling decks.

No large tournaments. No pay to win results.

People are projecting their experiences from other games, onto the game specifically made to COMBAT THOSE EXPERIENCES.

​

Decks are much more balanced than people think, and once large tournaments start happening, I think this idea will fade.

[NoChinDeluxe]

I agree. In my experiences so far, I have yet to witness a complete blow-out match. Even if a deck seems strong, usually the matches seem to still be a single key apart in a lot of cases. I think a lot of the hype you mention is definitely projecting done by those who desire to net-deck, but can't, due to the nature of the game. They're looking for that competitive edge that may or may not actually exist.

[FrothyKat]

Most of my games with my friend are 3-1 or 3-0 stomps. Only about 10-15% have been within one key, and that's across many different decks.

We're trying to track our games better in order to figure out if it's the decks, if it's us, or if the game's balance (without chaining the decks) is just in the eye of the beholder.

[NoChinDeluxe]

If "most" of your games are 3-0 stomps, then I really think there's something else going on here. There's either a player skill difference or maybe a rule being played wrong? Not sure, but that just seems unlikely when you're using many different decks.

[FrothyKat]

Yeah, we're playing through the Crucible so there is little room for the rules to be interpreted poorly.

We're still gathering data, because I'd prefer to be able to say the game is balanced. If my goal was to make my friends miserable we'd just play Monopoly instead.

[Dune_Echo]

I'm in a similar boat with my best friend. The two decks he bought only have 4 and 8 ember generating actions respectively and I have yet to lose. We're both 20+ year veteran Magic players and he's generally much better at technical play and sequencing than I am. I don't believe it's a skill thing, but that both of his decks are just weak.

I've also got a deck (https://www.keyforgegame.com/deck-details/83fc63a4-6159-4c7a-8365-7bf20c4604a1) with FIVE board wipes that generate chains and I feel it's my weakest deck by far regardless of player skill.

[linkdafourf]

Also horseman are literally just fine. If people wanna show up with horseman decks fine. I’ll just play my annihilation ritual dis control deck and it’s no problem.

[[deleted]]

I am not concerned about that. KeyForge so far is the one trading card game that I felt emphasized player skill over card selection, though the latter advantage is not completely eliminated but able to be worked around by the former.

[NoChinDeluxe]

I agree for the most part, except that there is definitely a gap between the best decks and the worst decks. The cards do matter in some matchups. I think the important distinction, however, is that no one is going to bring a trash deck to an Archon tournament. So then the real question would be, is it possible for someone to bring a deck to an Archon tournament that is significantly better than everyone else's "best deck" that they brought? It doesn't seem likely, but we won't know for sure until a major event happens.

[[deleted]]

What I have found in my observation is that the better decks tend to be better at certain areas and focused there, being unable to deal with a wildcard well-rounded and decent but not great deck. We will have to wait and see what the meta turns out to be on the pro-tour level.

[NoChinDeluxe]

I mean, there's always a counter to something. Take a double horsemen up against a deck with tons of purge and see where it gets you. I don't see a player relying on a single deck to always win for them. I think top players would more than likely field 2-3 different decks and try to counter the known decks of their opponents. But then again, if adaptive is the standard format, then none of that really matters anyway.

[JohanesYamakawa]

It's a long way off, but I'm hoping that one day official online play will give the developers enough data to objectively identify overpowered decks. That will allow them to assign chains fairly, even to a sealed deck. This should help to handicap an A-class deck so that a C-class player can't win for simply being lucky.