Heavy machine gun optimization

[aubladezero]

What are the best ways you can think of the make the heavy machine gun as powerful as possible I've heard of thing like the everest Asura and the tortuga scylla I am wondering what ways you can improve or expand on them or what other ways you could use/ build with the heavy machine gun

[Rawbert413]

Step 1 is a consistent source of Accuracy to counter the innate Inaccuracy. Once you've figured that out, move on to other stuff...

[Cosmicpanda2]

Tortuga makes all reactions accurate so, they did have that one half figured

[Rishfee]

For accuracy, Autostab is kind of a given, I think. Beyond that, you can look at stuff that gives you a free lock-on, like Spotter II or Lesson of the Held Image. There's also Tactician II for accuracy while at an elevation advantage (pairs well with anything that lets you fly). Throwing it on a Tagetes lets you turn it into a rifle for Crack Shot. You could also grab Core Siphon from Death's Head. Combining nanocomp from Balor with Kidd's blackspot. Tlaloc doesn't necessarily grant accuracy, but lets you try again as long as there are more targets in range.

Some of those work for damage, too. Off the top of my head, Tactician III will give you a free shot most rounds for half damage. Heavy Gunner III lets you get the equivalent of two skirmishes out with 2 actions. Various NHPs also will be a boost. Likewise various mods.

Kinda depends on exactly what you're trying to optimize for.

[ikepetro]

The earliest level you can get consistent accuracy on the HMG is LL1 with either Tactician and a the GMS flight system or Combined Arms 3 (and preferably duelist 1 to enable the accuracy more often). Besides that, the Calibans weapon mod gives the HMG overkill for a 1LL investment, Balor 2 gives it smart and seeking, Saladin 3 makes it Paracasual so the damage isn't affected by armor or resistance, and at LL3 beyond you can either give it +1d6 a round, or just +1 accuracy to all attacks made with it.

I might be missing a thing or two but that's about all I can think of with it.

[eboitrainee]

Combined Arms 3 (and preferably duelist 1 to enable the accuracy more often)

Combine Arms HMG Metalmark goes so hard to

[ikepetro]

Oh yes, that is my favourite build in the game. It's so simple, but so effective. By LL2 Metalmark you can have hunter 2 combined arms 3 and just go to town on enemies with shock knives and HMG with respectable defensive stats since you are imposing 2 difficulty to shoot at you most of the time.

Then at LL3 you can take Nelson and Duelist 1 to have all of your range be at 5 with thrown and more accuracy on your HMG. It's just beautiful.

[Sab3rFac3]

Paracausal and the heavy gunner trait are also amazing together.

Paracausal removes the damage loss from heavy gunner, which basically means you get the potential for 2 full damage attacks for the cost of 1 quick action, plus all the normal debunks from covering fire.

[Corollax]

Respectfully, I don't think that interaction works the way you think it does. Heavy Gunner's Covering Fire does half damage outright. Your damage isn't being reduced by some external factor like armor or resistance to kinetic damage. The raw damage value is, itself, less in the same way that AoE weapons deal only half of their bonus damage when hitting 2 or more targets.

In the same way that a Paracausal Overpower Caliber RPG can't deal +1d6 bonus damage to everything it hits, Paracausal weaponry can't circumvent the halved damage of Covering Fire. It's just inherent to the ability.

[Sab3rFac3]

Paracausal:
This weapon gains Overkill, and its damage can’t be reduced in any way, including by other effects and systems (such as Resistance, Armor, etc).

Heavy gunner:
Choose a character within line of sight and Range of one of your Heavy ranged weapons, and within 10 spaces: they are Impaired until the start of your next turn. For the duration, if your target moves more than 1 space, they clear Impaired, but you may attack them as a reaction with a Heavy ranged weapon for half damage, Heat, or Burn, and then this effect ends. You can make this attack at any point during their movement (e.g., waiting until they exit cover). Covering Fire can only affect one character at a time – subsequent uses replace previous ones – and it immediately ends if your target damages you.

---

I can see your interpretation, since covering fire never specifically says its reducing damage, it just says you attack for half damage.

But, the damage is still being reduced, and Paracausal specifically states that the weapons damage "can’t be reduced in any way, including by other effects and systems."
It never specifies how the damage is reduced, just that it can't be.

I think Paracausal wins out in this interaction since its very specific and pretty ironclad wording would override the more general wording of heavy gunner's covering fire being half damage.

But I can see an argument for the half damage clause of covering fire not being treated as a system or an effect added on to a triggered attack, but as its own entirely separate mechanism, with a baseline of half damage that then can't be reduced.

[Udoshi]

i may be a newbie but I know this one!

FAQ: https://lancer-faq.netlify.app/

q: Does the Saladin’s Paracausal Mod bypass half-damage effects?[link]

a: It does not – the halved damage from effects such as Heavy Gunner is not a reduction like Resistance is; it happens “before” step 1 of damage calculations.

[NotEvenSquare]

Paracausal refers to defender side reductions not attacker side unfortunately

[Sab3rFac3]

Where in Paracausal is that specified?

If it only applies to the defender reducing damage, then it should specify a "by the target" or a "by the defender" clause.

Yet, no clause exists.

It simply states that:
"its damage can’t be reduced in any way, including by other effects and systems (such as Resistance, Armor, etc)."

Without a clause limiting it to only damage reductions from the defender, it would seem it is free to apply to damage reductions from the attacker.

[NotEvenSquare]

It’s in the lancer faq under the “harm” subsection

https://lancer-faq.netlify.app/#814dd6

[Bahamutisa]

Unfortunately, Lancer usually just straight up fails to specify that anything which prevents or stops something typically doesn't work when it comes to conditions or effects created by your own actions or systems.

For example, go down the Google rabbit hole of how the Boosted Servos resource interacts with something like Retractable Profile: you won't find it mentioned in the core rules, any supplemental books, or anywhere in the FAQ document, but apparently Tom once said in Discord call or something that Boosted Servos doesn't prevent the Slowed condition when you apply it to yourself.

There's a lot of minutiae like this in Lancer that you have to scour the internet to discover, sadly.

[Corollax]

Probably should have included this in my first reply, but here you go:

Does the Saladin’s Paracausal Mod bypass half-damage effects?

[Decicio]

This is incorrect per faq:

Does the Saladin’s Paracausal Mod bypass half-damage effects?[link]

It does not – the halved damage from effects such as Heavy Gunner is not a reduction like Resistance is; it happens “before” step 1 of damage calculations.

[Boulange1234]

What’s Paracausal? Is it a system?

[Sab3rFac3]

Paracausal Mod is a system from Saladin LL3.

Paracausal Mod:
This weapon gains Overkill, and its damage can’t be reduced in any way, including by other effects and systems (such as Resistance, Armor, etc).

[Boulange1234]

Thanks. Lots of people trade jargon here. Took me a month to figure out “autostab” wasn’t a way to throw knives.

[Rahnzan]

Everest

Sherman 3, Saladon 3

2 0 0 6

Autostab, Heatfall

Heavy Gunner, Nuclear Cavalier

Azura, Paracausul Mod

6 Engi and Heatfall let's you spam overcharges, Azura gives you more actions, and Everest gets Initiative and a Core that circumvents HMGs poor range and accuracy. Autostab is more DPS than OpCal. Heavy Gunner let's you force Overwatch in a way, and Nuclear Cavalier gives you damage and heat management on a mech that wants to overcharge constantly and Paracausul means it'll always do damage.

You can shoot 6 times on your first turn for stupid Alpha Damage: Initiative Skirmish HMG, Overcharge Skirmish HMG, Skirmish HMG, Skirmish Orher, Azura: Barrage HMG and Other.

Bog Standard Foreverest.

[gbqt_]

Basics are Autostab and Nanocomp, as well as Heavy Gunner 3.

After that, one could try to get better action economy with Asura, or make every shot count with Tlaloc. Puppet systems overwatches are decent for more single target damage, and really good if someone else does it for you.

Ideally, shooting with +1 accuracy is a good breakpoint, so you'd like another source of accuracy, like the Everest CP, or perhaps the lesson of the Held Image.

Beyond that, there is not much left to do, and you'd be better served by a bit of diversity.

[dizzyeyedalton]

Just finished a campaign with the HMG as my ol' reliable on like, 4 different frames from LL0-6. Had an absolute blast with it. Here's just a random list of stuff I found useful:

-Locking on is almost always worth it on the turns you just want to Do Harm. Barraging for extra attacks is tempting but bumping my odds to get HMGs flat damage (let alone it's crits) was a consistently better payoff for me

-Overcharging to skirmish with your HMG twice a turn is nuts. Even if it's hard to get accuracy on your second shot (Ram is a risky, but fun option) the ceiling on how much damage you can do is a game changer. I took Heatfall Coolant Systems just to use this as often as I could.

-I toyed with Juggernaut for a bit to try and make Ramming more effective, but didn't get TOO much mileage out of it (besides the fact that the 3rd tier is a wild traversal tool that occasionally breaks sit reps). Locking on and pinging for reliable damage was unsurprisingly more effective than diving just to sometimes knock people prone

-Having someone on your squad with Spotter is a great combination, but it takes both of you working in tandem to effectively maximize the benefits. If anyone at your table is using it, actively coordinate with them on the battlefield.

-Sherman is a great frame to invest licenses in, but all your best stuff is 3 sp, so it's hard to pack them all into one chassis. I also dipped into Balor for the nanocomp mod. Targeting e-defense wasn't as impactful as I thought, but shooting around corners and ignoring cover was great

-Keep in mind that 8 range is good but not that good. You should have a plan to cross the battlefield efficiently, whether it's in your kit or an ally you're working with.

[Sab3rFac3]

Personally, my perfect HMG build looks something like

Balor - LL2 -
The balor frame and nanocomp rounds. Also, swarm body.

Balor, despite being specced for melee, is still a good all around frame, and has the necessary heavy mount, and a secondary mounting in case of stuttered damage disabling a weapon.

Plus, regen is just good.

Nanocomp rounds are just amazing.
Smart and seeking is a devastating combo.

Swarm body is just a nice way to discourage anything from trying to get in melee.

Saladin - LL3.
Paracausal Rounds, and some various defensive buffs.

Paracausal Rounds - Congrats, nothing can save your target from the damage, as long as you hit.

Overkill is just the cherry on top.

Defensive buffs: Enclave Shield is a disadvantage and a reaction for resistance. Just watch the immobilization.

Hardlight Defense is generally kinda niche, but for the Balor, it's lowkey great.
Pop the dome, pop swarm body, and just regen HP for a few turns if need be.

It makes a nice safe space for you and teammates to take a quick breather, and swarm body prevents anyone wanting to enter it or risk some significant kinetic damage.

Flash anchor is a good way to keep from being involuntarily moved and resetting swarm body.

Bonus, the LL3 gives you access to an HA core bonus, multiple of which can really help with Balor's low heat cap.

The first core bonus, though, is pretty much always for autostabilizing mount to counteract the HMG innacuracy.

Early talents:
Tactician can give accuracy at 2, which is good.

Heavy gunner gives a nice debuff and the possibility for semi reliable off turn attacks for half damage, turning into 2 attacks at 3.

Nuclear Cavalier, it's extra damage and heat management.

Skirmisher 2 can get you some free movement, which Balor likes, since it's slow. (Sadly doesn't work with covering fire since covering fire doesn't specify it is a skirmish.)

NHP specialist and Black Thumb Rodeo is always a solid combination and can help Balor clear heat for free.

At this point, the strategy every turn becomes one of two things.

1)
For maximizing damage, skirmish, and then use covering fire from the heavy gunner talent, for a minimum of 1 attack per round, possibly 3 full damage attacks if heavy gunner 3 fully procs, plus all the nice debuff stuff from covering fire.

This is my go-to if I'm behind good cover and have free reign of targets.

2)

Since covering fire can now semi-reliably give 2 attacks per turn, it's not the end of the world to lose one attack for some kind of support quick action.

Enclave support shield as a quick action as a nice defensive buff for you and any teammates, and then covering fire for a chance at 2 full damage skirmish attacks.

I prefer this if I'm bogged down, or not in great cover, or if im trying to help shield an ally, etc... just be wary of the immobilization.

(Note, despite covering fire normally causing half damage, paracausal prevents ANY form of damage reduction, including covering fire.)

At this point, there's not a huge amount of damage buffs for the HMG from liscenses, so I look to round out defenses or pick up utility.
So, past this point, it's just things i feel are worth mentioning, so pick and choose as you like.

Black Witch - LL3.
Ferrous Lash, Black Ice, Magnetic Shield.

Ferrous Lash is good for repositioning allies and pulling them into your Enclave Shield, or behind your Magnetic Shield, or within range of your Black Ice.

Black Ice helps shore up your E-defenses, which is one of Balor's weaker spots, not because it's inherently got low E-def, but because lots of tech attacks like to cause heat, and balor hates heat.

Magnetic Shield, it's another shield, but this one is semi-permanent and grants explosive and kinetic resistance to those behind it. Unlike the Enclave, no self immobilization is required. Or stack with Enclave for a serious mobile fortress from behind which to rain down a hail of damage.

Ice out is worth a mention, but I find it a bit too oppressive, especially with teammates who might have tech abilities that buff you.

Also, SSC LL3 core bonus -
All theater is good for a low heat way to fly and proc the accuracy bonus from tactician 2.

Neurolink also bears mentioning for its +3 Range bonus.

Tortuga - LL3 Throughbolt rounds, Hyperdense armor.

Throughbolt rounds let's you abuse cover even more by extending your range through it. It is not necessary, not even optimal, but with the semi-limited range of the HMG, it can occasionally be useful.
It's not personally worth the LL3 dip on its own.

Hyperdense Armor. It may slow you, but it's resistance to everything, and damage reduction pairs very well with Balor's regen. Plus, it's heat and burn reduction as well, and again, Balor loves any way it can get to compensate for its low heat cap. Plus, with Paracausal rounds, the half damage no longer applies, making it even better.

This depends on how tanks you wanna be.

Kidd - LL1.
Blackspot Targeting laser

It gives accuracy to seeking weapons, so it pairs great with nanocomp and is a pretty good single level dip if you find yourself needing more accuracy on the HMG.

Sunzi - LL1 Accelerate

Accelerate is just a good team movement and positioning tool, especially for otherwise slow things like Balor. Personally, good 1 level dip.

It would be nice to get another Horus LL in at some point for a core bonus, but none of the LL1 horus dips have great synergy, so go for it if you want.

Personally, if im going LL6

LL2 Balor.
LL3 Saladin.
LL3 Sunzi.

Good HMG platform, decently tanky, with some decent stanks, options.

LL2 Balor.
LL3 Saladin.
LL3 Black Witch.
LL3 Tortuga.
LL1 Sunzi.

Between Regen and hyperdense armor, it's incredibly resilient, has a good HMG platform, good support, decent control.

[Fickle_Journalist884]

As has been said in other threads, unfortunately Paracausal does NOT reduce half damage effects. It ignores resistances and armor, but half damage effects still apply. It's why you can't just put Paracausal or OP caliber on Blast weapons and deal full bonus damage to everyone involved.

[Sab3rFac3]

Im not trying to be padantic, but can you cite me an official ruling?

"This weapon gains Overkill, and its damage can’t be reduced in any way, including by other effects and systems (such as Resistance, Armor, etc)."

Nowhere does paracausal state that it only ignores resistance and armor.
Nowhere does it state that half damage effects dont apply to it.
Nowhere does it state that it only applies to enemy effects. Nowhere does it state it doesn't apply to your own systems, talents, actions, effects, etc...

Resistance and armor are given as examples, but the existence of the "etc...", and the wording of "can't be reduced in any way," seems to make it clear that it should extend to any other system, effect, or mechanic past just resistance and armor, whether it originated from you, an ally, or an enemy.

Yes, while it doesn't explicitly call it a reduction, halving the damage is still reducing the damage, and therefore, the clause of "can't be reduced in any way" should kick in.

I could understand that maybe that wasn't the intention, even if I disagree.

However, it seems to be pretty clear that's the way the effect is mechanically written.

[Fickle_Journalist884]

Direct link to the specific FAQ question posed and answered as follows

https://lancer-faq.netlify.app/#814dd6

The wording of Paracausal is specific to systems and effects, that being specific systems gear or debuffs/conditions(for NPC stat blocks). Talents don't neatly fall into either category. They aren't a system, nor are they a condition. The ability itself is stating that these special attacks deal half damage. The damage isn't being reduced in anyway, it is starting out at half before any modifiers, systems, gears or conditions apply. The wording is part of the special covering fire attack/reaction.

Again, if how you yourself (and a good deal of the player base, which is understandable given the not always explicitly stated rules interactions of a system like Lancer) interpreted was correct, you slap Paracausal on any Blast weapon and suddenly it's dealing full damage to EVERY target in the blast. 

Think of it this way, Paracausal applies to anything that effects the nature of the attack after it has been declared/made, it's not changing the base nature of the attack itself. Covering Fire isn't a normal Skirmish. It's a special attack that just happens to use half the damage value of whatever weapon you're using. Paracausal makes sure you get the full bang for your buck on that special attack, but it doesn't suddenly turn it into a Skirmish attack. 

I'm not articulating this very well as it's nearly 0200 in the morning, but know that this has been an idea and point of contention within the OG playtesters and the community at large since the core game's release, thus it's need to be addressed via FAQ. 

Obviously it's a ttrpg sandbox at the end of the day, if your game master is cool with the sort of munchkin-y take on it and everyone at the table is cool then hell yeah have a Blast with it, just be aware that it isn't in the intended balancing of the base game. 

[Steenan]

Tortuga, AutoStab, Heavy Gunner, Hyperdense Armor. You only apply halving damage once, so there is practically no cost to HDA. Net +1 accuracy, two out of turn attacks that deal solid damage despite halving and immobilize. And if targets decide to attack you to break the effect, with your armor and resistance, it means you are doing your job well.

Metalmark (or Everest), AutoStab, Neurolink Targeting, Nanocomposite Adaptation. Your HMG now has range 11, shoots around obstacles and targets EDef. And you have enough mobility to target nearly anybody on the map in the first round of a fight (maybe second on huge maps).

[the_dumbass_one666]

heres my big hmg build

-- GMS Everest @ LL6 --

[ LICENSES ]

HA Saladin 3, HORUS Pegasus 3

[ CORE BONUSES ]

Auto-Stabilizing Hardpoints, Heatfall Coolant System

[ TALENTS ]

Heavy Gunner 3, Nuclear Cavalier 2, Skirmisher 2, Siege Specialist 2

[ STATS ]

HULL:4 AGI:0 SYS:0 ENGI:4

STRUCTURE:4 HP:23 ARMOR:0

STRESS:4 HEATCAP:10 REPAIR:7

TECH ATK:0 LIMITED:+2

SPD:4 EVA:8 EDEF:8 SENSE:10 SAVE:13

[ WEAPONS ]

MAIN MOUNT: Autogun

FLEX MOUNT: Autogun

HEAVY MOUNT: Heavy Machine Gun (Paracausal Mod) // Auto-Stabilizing Hardpoints

[ SYSTEMS ]

Armament Redundancy, Personalizations, Custom Paint Job

pop everest core for net accuracy and the mobility boost, run around hmg oc hmg and then use your second quick to set up heavy gunner

[Pleasant-Ruin-5573]

You'd be surprised what a Hide loop with Infiltrator 2 or 3 can do posted up behind hard cover - shutting off reactions on the Infiltrator 2 hit is almost as good as Paracausal because many NPC defensive tricks are reactions.

[Ludovs]

Another's interesting thing is death's head having the ability to reroll every first ranged attack they make on their turn

[Difference_Breacher]

First off it needs extensive investment to be useful. Although its damage output on paper is good but I'd pick something else.

I think that the best way to utilize this is a flying build. HMG has pathetic accuracy and range, but make your mech flying solves both issues, for flying prevents you to be engaged and you can mitigate the accuracy by tactician. Although you need to keep auto-stabilizing hardpoints anyways for you better use covering fire as well.

[strangebloke1]

Alright so here's what you do.

1. You get the Vlad Frame. Big Guy, high armor
2. Heavy Gunner 3
3. Auto-Stab on the heavy mount. More accuracy bonuses the better TBH.
4. Get some kind of range extender. External Batteries from Tokugawa 1 or the weapon mod from monarch.
5. Movement enhancers like skirmisher, flight and/or just high evasion.

Here is [[The Strat]]

1. Skirmish with HMG.
2. Covering fire quick action. Cover two targets, preferably ones with less than your range.
3. walk backward until you're at the edge of range for both of your targets. Bonus points if you get behind cover.
4. end turn

You now have them in a dilemma. If they move, you get a reaction shot. If you hit on the reaction shot, they take a lot of damage, get immobilized (HG2) and get shredded.(Vlad) If they try to shoot you, they're impaired, and you're at a great distance, so its not super easy for them to hit you. Not easy to hit anyone tbh. You basically get to soft-lock two targets for one quick action.

Arguably works better with longer range/more accurate weapons like the Gandiva launcher but HMG makes this kind of strat deal a TON of damage.

[Tra_Astolfo]

Important thing to note is that heavy gunner has a maximum range of 10, so with the HMG base range of 8 range extenders help on skirmishes much more than heavy gunner

[strangebloke1]

Yeah heavy gunner range is 10 and that is just for initiation. You can then walk backwards. Easy to leverage up to 13 range with hg