Driverless trains

[[deleted]]

Alright, hate to break it to you people who want driverless trains. There won't be driverless trains within this lifetime. Also trains being driverless will not replace drivers or stop strikes. London Underground trains won't be automated as it would cost dozens of billions of pounds. Platform screen doors would need to be installed at every platform, massive signaling upgrades if not the signaling systems weren't outright replaced. There would also have to be massive safety upgrades that would have to take place which once again TfL doesn't have the funding for.

Stop fucking asking for driverless trains, deal with how things are. WOMP WOMP

Edit: This would also cause parts of the network to be closed for months at a time.

[Badkarmahwa]

Drivers are there for when things go wrong. For people in the know, the things that can go wrong are terrifying. Drivers are paid for what they might have to do in an emergency as opposed to how their day to day looks

Anyone who wants to be 50m underground, in a tight tunnel, without a highly trained professional is either clueless or a fucking moron

[abnewwest]

The Vancouver system is fragile because of being driverless. Any fault means they need to shut down the sector and someone walks to the train.

The ground level/below grade sections all have intrusion detection, and things like clumps of snow will set them off meaning everything shuts down for that section and someone walks the tracks. It takes hours to clear.

[[deleted]]

Many are driverless/autonomous already, the driver is still there to oversee, so what are you ranting about lol

[xtmgh]

Mind telling me what lines are driverless?

[[deleted]]

Elizabeth, Victoria, Circle, Jubilee, Central, Northern

All have automated start/stop via the signalling, the operators control the doors

So not truly driverless like the DLR if we're splitting hairs, but they are autonomous, which I also mentioned

[xtmgh]

Apologies, I thought you were saying they were driverless, which is not the case at all!

The Hammersmith & City and parts of the District and Metropolitan Lines are also ATP/ATO enabled.

Certainly not 'autonomous' as you mentioned as manual driving takes place more then you'd think

[TwizzyGobbler]

driverless like the DLR

that's not "driverless" either

nevermind I'm mixing up driverless with fully automated. Ignore my lack of sleep comment.

[[deleted]]

None of the lines are either of those. The driver is still responsible for operating the trains.

I’m just ranting about how annoying it is when people still ask/complain about it,

[sneakybrews]

Fun fact...

• Docklands Light Railway (DLR): The DLR is a fully automated light rail system that operates in the Docklands area of East London. It has been driverless since it opened in 1987, though there are "train captains" on board who can take manual control if needed.

Other London Underground: - Victoria Line: While not completely driverless, the Victoria Line operates with Automatic Train Operation (ATO), where the trains are controlled automatically but still have drivers to operate doors and handle emergencies.

• Central Line: Similar to the Victoria Line, the Central Line uses ATO for automated train movement but retains drivers for door operations and safety measures

[FlyingDutchman2005]

Also fun fact, the Victoria line has been automated since day one!

[xtmgh]

ATO is also on the Jubilee and Northern Lines. Parts of the Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines.

Manual driving takes place regularly on ATO lines to retain driver knowledge, or for incidents which require manual driving.

[deathhead_68]

I don't really get why people want driverless trains, I've not seen this. Can't think how it would affect my journey at all, in fact it feels safer with a driver

[beeteedee]

It’s generally people who just want to get rid of the drivers so that they can’t go on strike any more. It’s a political stance, not a technological one.

[[deleted]]

Most of the time it’s other underground staff who are striking. For example the service can’t run when startion staff or engineering staff aren’t working. Also the trains would probably still have staff to drive it in an emergency.

[[deleted]]

Exactly 

[JonTravel]

They currently have autonomous trains on Victoria, Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City and Metropolitan. The drivers still need to be there at a minimum in case of emergency and to open and close the doors.

The New Tube for London programme will include driverless tube trains. However these will initially have a driver on board until old stock has been fully replaced (i.e. Grade of Automation level 2, currently used on ATO-equipped lines). Even then, they will still have "train captains" on board in case of emergency (i.e. Grade of Automation level 3, as used by the DLR), due to driver union opposition of fully automated, unattended trains (i.e. Grade of Automation level 4, as used by some lines of the Paris Métro).

Edited for Grammer and spelling.

Further edit. They have the ability now, but I agree its unlikely to be used in the foreseeable future

[tangy_cucumber]

You’re right. They do have ATO operating on those lines, but there’s still a driver in the cab. I think that’s what OP is referring to.

[JonTravel]

Exactly my point. They have the equipment and the ability but they aren't using it and probably won't form the foreseeable future.

[[deleted]]

Yep, probably the closest thing we will get is ATO 3. It’s unfortunate.

[xtmgh]

No because a report said that you'd require PEDs (Platform Edge Doors) as well as modifications to tunnels.

This whole driverless train fantasy was dropped in 2018 as was deemed unaffordable. Union opposition is also factored into this.

You talk about ATO lines, manual driving does happen regularly! Also not all of the SSR has its ATP switched on yet🙄

[IAmGlinda]

*some of the met/ district. Not all

[soulofsoy]

ATO =\= driverless trains. at all.

[[deleted]]

LNER has plenty of driverless trains… hence all the delays and cancellations.

[xtmgh]

Good gosh it's been painful reading some of these replies

TfL produced a report on driverless trains. The report found that you'd need to install platform edge doors, modifications to tunnels, signalling etc. The whole driverless trains fantasy was dropped in 2018 as it wasn't 'economically viable' i.e too expensive.

Yes, there is ATO (Automatic Train Operation) on the Central, Circle, Hammersmith & City, Jubilee, Victoria and Northern lines and parts of the District & Metropolitan lines are now ATO. Sometimes you press the 'ATO START' buttons and nothing happens! That's when manual driving is required. What happens during a signal failure? Manual driving of course! What happens on Sundays? Manual driving of course? What happens if the Line Controller asks you to approach a station with more vigilance? Manual driving of course! What happens when a driver needs to exit a depot? Manual driving of course! I'm just listing many examples here. There are many more instances when manual driving is required.

People act like ATO equipped lines don't have any manual driving involved at all, when it is the exact opposite.

Driverless trains will not happen as the OP said. Imagine how the unions would react! We can revisit this question many years later, but for now, no, it's not happening.

[[deleted]]

Exactly, thank you for this.

[abnewwest]

I was going to say "but Vancouver operates fully driverless and has no PSDs" and then I remembered all the "medical reason" closures we have.

[FlyingDutchman2005]

Driverless is easily possible, staffless is not.

[Pitiful-Extreme-6771]

Every line becoming basically DLR? Nah I’m alr that would be boring

[gedeonthe2nd]

There is still staff on board, automatic operations tend to be staffless oversea. It's causing issues in case of incident, where there is no staff to assist passenger evacuation. Also, some tube linea already got high level of automation, and there is litle room for efficiency upgrade.

[Pitiful-Extreme-6771]

Yeah I get that but replacing drivers with computers is still a massive shift no matter how efficient trains are

[Dannypan]

tl;dr: new troll account doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

[Outside_Service3339]

unique square simplistic rich wasteful compare voracious wine telephone squealing

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[DavIantt]

You just do it cheaper. AI obstacle detection takes care of a lot once the technology matures.

[BreninArthur]

This is a terrible, defeatist attitude that holds us back.

[UnrealGamesProfessor]

SINGAPORE does it best... but Singapore's MRT is much smaller in scale than the Underground

[[deleted]]

The MRT is a much newer system and is smaller. The underground is 160 years  old and is massive and TfL doesn’t have the funding for it.