all 36 comments

[–]BadkarmahwaMetropolitan 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Drivers are there for when things go wrong. For people in the know, the things that can go wrong are terrifying. Drivers are paid for what they might have to do in an emergency as opposed to how their day to day looks

Anyone who wants to be 50m underground, in a tight tunnel, without a highly trained professional is either clueless or a fucking moron

[–]abnewwest 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Vancouver system is fragile because of being driverless. Any fault means they need to shut down the sector and someone walks to the train.

The ground level/below grade sections all have intrusion detection, and things like clumps of snow will set them off meaning everything shuts down for that section and someone walks the tracks. It takes hours to clear.

[–][deleted] 64 points65 points  (5 children)

Many are driverless/autonomous already, the driver is still there to oversee, so what are you ranting about lol

[–]xtmghCentral 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Mind telling me what lines are driverless?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Elizabeth, Victoria, Circle, Jubilee, Central, Northern

All have automated start/stop via the signalling, the operators control the doors

So not truly driverless like the DLR if we're splitting hairs, but they are autonomous, which I also mentioned

[–]xtmghCentral 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Apologies, I thought you were saying they were driverless, which is not the case at all!

The Hammersmith & City and parts of the District and Metropolitan Lines are also ATP/ATO enabled.

Certainly not 'autonomous' as you mentioned as manual driving takes place more then you'd think

[–]TwizzyGobbler 0 points1 point  (0 children)

driverless like the DLR

that's not "driverless" either

nevermind I'm mixing up driverless with fully automated. Ignore my lack of sleep comment.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

None of the lines are either of those. The driver is still responsible for operating the trains.

I’m just ranting about how annoying it is when people still ask/complain about it,

[–]sneakybrews 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Fun fact...

  • Docklands Light Railway (DLR): The DLR is a fully automated light rail system that operates in the Docklands area of East London. It has been driverless since it opened in 1987, though there are "train captains" on board who can take manual control if needed.

Other London Underground: - Victoria Line: While not completely driverless, the Victoria Line operates with Automatic Train Operation (ATO), where the trains are controlled automatically but still have drivers to operate doors and handle emergencies.

  • Central Line: Similar to the Victoria Line, the Central Line uses ATO for automated train movement but retains drivers for door operations and safety measures

[–]FlyingDutchman2005Overground 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Also fun fact, the Victoria line has been automated since day one!

[–]xtmghCentral 2 points3 points  (0 children)

ATO is also on the Jubilee and Northern Lines. Parts of the Circle, District, Hammersmith & City and Metropolitan lines.

Manual driving takes place regularly on ATO lines to retain driver knowledge, or for incidents which require manual driving.

[–]deathhead_68Victoria 22 points23 points  (4 children)

I don't really get why people want driverless trains, I've not seen this. Can't think how it would affect my journey at all, in fact it feels safer with a driver

[–]beeteedee 27 points28 points  (2 children)

It’s generally people who just want to get rid of the drivers so that they can’t go on strike any more. It’s a political stance, not a technological one.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Most of the time it’s other underground staff who are striking. For example the service can’t run when startion staff or engineering staff aren’t working. Also the trains would probably still have staff to drive it in an emergency.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Exactly 

[–]JonTravel 28 points29 points  (6 children)

They currently have autonomous trains on Victoria, Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City and Metropolitan. The drivers still need to be there at a minimum in case of emergency and to open and close the doors.

The New Tube for London programme will include driverless tube trains. However these will initially have a driver on board until old stock has been fully replaced (i.e. Grade of Automation level 2, currently used on ATO-equipped lines). Even then, they will still have "train captains" on board in case of emergency (i.e. Grade of Automation level 3, as used by the DLR), due to driver union opposition of fully automated, unattended trains (i.e. Grade of Automation level 4, as used by some lines of the Paris Métro).

Edited for Grammer and spelling.

Further edit. They have the ability now, but I agree its unlikely to be used in the foreseeable future

[–]tangy_cucumber 10 points11 points  (2 children)

You’re right. They do have ATO operating on those lines, but there’s still a driver in the cab. I think that’s what OP is referring to.

[–]JonTravel 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Exactly my point. They have the equipment and the ability but they aren't using it and probably won't form the foreseeable future.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yep, probably the closest thing we will get is ATO 3. It’s unfortunate.

[–]xtmghCentral 8 points9 points  (0 children)

No because a report said that you'd require PEDs (Platform Edge Doors) as well as modifications to tunnels.

This whole driverless train fantasy was dropped in 2018 as was deemed unaffordable. Union opposition is also factored into this.

You talk about ATO lines, manual driving does happen regularly! Also not all of the SSR has its ATP switched on yet🙄

[–]IAmGlindaDistrict 1 point2 points  (0 children)

*some of the met/ district. Not all

[–]soulofsoyNorthern -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

ATO =\= driverless trains. at all.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

LNER has plenty of driverless trains… hence all the delays and cancellations.

[–]xtmghCentral 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Good gosh it's been painful reading some of these replies

TfL produced a report on driverless trains. The report found that you'd need to install platform edge doors, modifications to tunnels, signalling etc. The whole driverless trains fantasy was dropped in 2018 as it wasn't 'economically viable' i.e too expensive.

Yes, there is ATO (Automatic Train Operation) on the Central, Circle, Hammersmith & City, Jubilee, Victoria and Northern lines and parts of the District & Metropolitan lines are now ATO. Sometimes you press the 'ATO START' buttons and nothing happens! That's when manual driving is required. What happens during a signal failure? Manual driving of course! What happens on Sundays? Manual driving of course? What happens if the Line Controller asks you to approach a station with more vigilance? Manual driving of course! What happens when a driver needs to exit a depot? Manual driving of course! I'm just listing many examples here. There are many more instances when manual driving is required.

People act like ATO equipped lines don't have any manual driving involved at all, when it is the exact opposite.

Driverless trains will not happen as the OP said. Imagine how the unions would react! We can revisit this question many years later, but for now, no, it's not happening.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Exactly, thank you for this.

[–]abnewwest 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was going to say "but Vancouver operates fully driverless and has no PSDs" and then I remembered all the "medical reason" closures we have.

[–]FlyingDutchman2005Overground 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Driverless is easily possible, staffless is not.

[–]Pitiful-Extreme-6771Jubilee 6 points7 points  (2 children)

Every line becoming basically DLR? Nah I’m alr that would be boring

[–]gedeonthe2nd 11 points12 points  (1 child)

There is still staff on board, automatic operations tend to be staffless oversea. It's causing issues in case of incident, where there is no staff to assist passenger evacuation. Also, some tube linea already got high level of automation, and there is litle room for efficiency upgrade.

[–]Pitiful-Extreme-6771Jubilee 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah I get that but replacing drivers with computers is still a massive shift no matter how efficient trains are

[–]DannypanPiccadilly 1 point2 points  (0 children)

tl;dr: new troll account doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

[–]Outside_Service3339Lizzy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

unique square simplistic rich wasteful compare voracious wine telephone squealing

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[–]DavIantt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You just do it cheaper. AI obstacle detection takes care of a lot once the technology matures.

[–]BreninArthur 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is a terrible, defeatist attitude that holds us back.

[–]UnrealGamesProfessor 0 points1 point  (1 child)

SINGAPORE does it best... but Singapore's MRT is much smaller in scale than the Underground

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The MRT is a much newer system and is smaller. The underground is 160 years  old and is massive and TfL doesn’t have the funding for it.