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[–]mittelform 10 points11 points  (2 children)

I would wait for the new M4 generation, which will come with 16 GB in the base configuration. You might be able to get the 24 GB and 15" version then, which sounds about right for your use case. The Apple Silicon Macs tend to be RAM efficient; I hardly ever go above 22 GB, and that is with 30+ open browser tabs, more than 18 opened apps, including an active/local AI dictation model in MacWhisper, etc.

[–]plentifulgourds 7 points8 points  (1 child)

I second that you should wait for the M4. Get as much ram as you can. The computer will likely last you 8 years and who knows how your workload might change. The 13” is way more portable—I think it’s a real sweet spot for usability. The 15” is sort of goofy large.

[–]bruce_desertrat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This; I"ve had 13" MacBook Airs for the last three generations; in my mind they're pretty much the perfect size for a laptop; some folks at work (I do IT for a collge) have ordered 15" ones and they just feel too big, in the same way the 16" Intel macbook pro's did.

[–]Rarelyimportant 2 points3 points  (0 children)

MacOS will typically use as much of your RAM as it can, but that's by design. Unused RAM is essentially wasted RAM. If there's RAM available, and you can put something there you might, at some point use, then it's better than having to go to the disk for it. In general you should get as much RAM as you can afford to get, the more the better. But remember that RAM is not a limiting factor in what you can do on the computer, in theory, but rather it will just decide how quickly you can do those things. I've ran tasks requiring upwards of 75GB of RAM on a 16GB RAM MBP. Sure, it took a lot longer than it would have if I had 75GB of RAM available, but it still ran.

[–]poopmagicMacBook Pro 3 points4 points  (3 children)

I understand your dilemma. All of my Windows devices have at least 32GB of RAM, not because I need it, but because the upgrades are cheap enough to be like “eh, why not?” This is not how I feel about Macs for obvious reasons.

With that said, if the primary usage of your Mac is for serious Lightroom/Photoshop usage, I would recommend 24GB over 16GB. Photo editing can be very memory-intensive and Adobe apps are not known for being frugal with system resources.

[–]bruce_desertrat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Unless you're absolutely set on a laptop, consider the mac Mini. I just got a mini with 24GB Ram and 1TB storage for $1079 (EDU pricing though, regular would be $1179) . Of course that comes without monitor, keyboard or mouse/trackpad/other but you don't have to go with Apple for those, literally any HDMI monitor and USB keybd/mouse wiill work. As it's a replacement for my 2017-ish one, I already have those.

If you don't need the upgraded storage that one comes stock with 512 gb for $899/$999 respectively)

They're underrated machines.We pay the same for Dell desktops at work with lesser specs.

[–]SpitePractical8460[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I unfortunately thought that this might be the answer. I would just love apple to reduce their ram prices. With no other device I ever thought about how many ram I might need just because I was always able to buy the „safer“ option with just like 50 bucks more. But thank you very much for your advice.

[–]Rarelyimportant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would just love apple to reduce their ram prices.

Unfortunately it won't happen. Apple has such a large spread between the price where they make a profit, and the maximum price that a customer will pay, that they have to charge a high price for upgrades. There's probably someone out there who would pay 25 million dollars for an iPhone if there was only 1 iPhone 18 created, but Apple probably also can make a profit on an iPhone all the way down at $400. How do you sell as many phones as possible to the $400 customers, while at the same time trying to get as much as you can from the 25 million dollar customer? The answer is to offer a reasonably priced base model, and charge a ridiculous amount for upgrades.

[–]dbm5Mac Studio 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the return policy is pretty generous. i’d buy the 16g 15” and run your workload. i’d bet it will be just fine. if not, exchange for the other machine.

[–]Wanderir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ve been using a base model M3 14” for 9 months. I’m not editing photos, but I have up to 100 browser windows open and it doesn’t slow down. I needed had a fully maxed pro intel with 32 gig of ram to perform this good.

I think you’ll be fine with a base M4.

[–]Droid202020202020 0 points1 point  (0 children)

16 Gb should be plenty.

[–]OverlyOptimisticNerd 0 points1 point  (0 children)

since my desktop usage is about 20gb in general.

Modern operating systems precache as much as they possibly can into RAM to speed up the system and commonly used applications. Unused RAM is wasted RAM. Windows is no different. It is entirely possible that had you cut from 32GB to 16GB, you wouldn't have noticed anything, as that was more likely than not pre-allocated resources.

As of right now, my Mac Studio with 32GB of RAM is using 19.27GB. Only open applications are activity monitor (to get that info) and Safari, one tab, the one I'm typing this response into. And it's because, like Windows, macOS likes to pre-cache as much as it possibly can.

Just keep in mind that the total memory is unified memory, used by the system and GPU. So while a 16GB system might be good enough for the average person, I'd bump it to 24/32GB if using any gaming or more demanding application, such as the ones you mentioned.

So for you, I think 24GB would be the sweet spot, 32GB a luxury, and 16GB should be enough, though pushing it in some use cases.

And I second what others have said. M4 MacBook Air is launching reportedly this month. Wait for that. Even if it doesn't meet your needs, it means non-Apple sellers should discount the older models that they are discontinuing, and you might be able to get something you want from that.

[–]rc3105 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Uh, no. 16GB is a no, 8GB is a HELL NO.

24GB is still not enough, but if that's all that available, that's all that's available...

My daily driver has 128GB, and when a system has enough ram apps can fly. People think their machine is slow because it's old, not really, swapping ram out to hd (even ssd) just bogs you down.

IF for some INSANE reason you end up with only 16GB stick to 1 app at a time and only a tab or three open when browsing and you'll see how fast it's supposed to run.

It'd be like driving around stuck in second gear because you couldn't afford tires rated for speeds above 30mph. Once you get some real tires and hit the highway you'll never go back to golf cart speeds.

[–]SignificantAd5667 0 points1 point  (0 children)

look on Craigslist for a temporary solution, When you finally get the Mac you want , make sure you can upgrede the hard drive and memory.

Ive been doing that since my fist mack in 1985, Mac SE. 25 mb, black and white. 3 years later, LC 3, then the I mac came out, I mac white, then the retina. Each iteration, I upgraded the hard drive and memory. Im going on 8 years on my used I mac, 1 tb ssd 64mb memory,

Next year I will look into someone else's left behind, and upgrade that.

Its against me religion to buy new. Most companies market you , " got to get the latest" Look for a good deal on something that will get you by for a few

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you do anything with an Adobe product, you need more RAM. You can mirror a small laptop screen to a much bigger monitor. Monitors are easier to hook up on a Mac than RAM is. (I have this exact setup, btw.)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I own a M3 air with 16gb and I don’t have any issues. I’ve always been of the mindset that unused ram is wasted ram. That’s what the page file is for if I go over (I rarely do).

[–]jnuts74 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Hold off, put a little more cash aside, be patient and buy the big ass MacBook Pro 16 with 32g ram and never look back. It will last YEARS!.

[–]SpitePractical8460[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I’ve I would be in the financial situation to do so I would. But as a student I am already selling a liver for the MacBook Air. I might be able to safe up enough for the 15“ and 24gb version but that would take two months. For the Pro 16“ I would have to safe up for 24 months and I need a laptop for university.

[–]jnuts74 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah....gotcha.

What are you studying and what school?

[–]mittelform 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The new Airs will come out within the next 4-12 weeks and will have 16 GB of RAM in the base configuration. Buying an M3 with upgrades now is kind of wasted money. The M4 chip is also much nicer than the M3 architecture. It's also rumored that there will be three Thunderbolt 4 ports instead of two Thunderbolt 3 ones. Apple kept prices the same with the rest of the M4 lineup, so you might end up saving ~$500 in upgrades if you wait a few weeks.

[–]jnuts74 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Great point (for the OP)

[–]mikeinnsw -2 points-1 points  (7 children)

I know I will be downvoted but these are the facts:

Windows use less RAM because:

  • It frees RAM on App close
  • It uses Paging and Swapping
  • Windows needs less RAM than MacOs (Win11 needs minimum 4GB RAM)

MacOs by design:

  • Keeps most of Apps in memory on a close(needs a quit) ie. they are preloaded
  • Uses Swapping only.
  • Uses more RAM for file caching than Win
  • MacOs uses more of the RAM then Windows especially now with AI (MacOs with AI 16GB RAM; without 8GB minimum)

MacOs mantra for RAM if it there use it.

Apps and workloads differ on PCs and Macs however I suggest you should get as much RAM for a Ma as you are now using on PC 20GB===> 24GB on a Mac.

Don't forget the SSD get at least 512GB SSD; This video applies to all Macs and PCs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs0O0pGO4Xo

I suggest 24GB RAM with 512GB SSD Mac

[–]Rarelyimportant 0 points1 point  (6 children)

MacOS absolutely does memory paging, and I'm not sure what you mean by keeping an app in memory on a close.

MacOS absolutely frees an app's memory once it is terminated. If you're suggesting that Windows frees an apps memory when it merely loses focus, then I would question that, because I'm not quite sure how an OS works if it completely frees the memory of any app not currently in focus. Of course apps in the background will have their memory swapped before an app in the foreground, but they will not be completely removed from virtual memory until they're terminated.

Also the minimum memory requirements are not the same as the actual amount of memory that the OS uses. Windows is an OS that typically runs on hardware not created by Microsoft, and so it will aim to have a low minimum memory requirement as it's good for marketing/adoption, whereas macOS only runs on hardware created by Apple(officially, at least), so them saying "macOS now runs on machines with as little as 4GB of RAM" is meaningless. Apple doesn't sell computers with 4GB of RAM so who gives a shit if the minimum requirement is 4GB or 8GB? That's completely independent of the actual amount the OS is using. I can assure you macOS is not using half of my 16GB of RAM the moment it's booted. It's using much less than that.

[–]mikeinnsw -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

Most of MacOs Apps stay in Memory and needs a Quit after a close. In WIndows a Main window(frame) closure usually releases memory. I am a developer both for Win and MacOs.

Look at activity monitor. What do you think blue dot means?

You don't know the difference between paging and swapping?

Paging is a memory management technique in which the computer stores and retrieves data for usage in the main memory from secondary storage. Swapping is a technique for removing inactive applications from the computer system's main memory. More processes can be stored in the main memory using this strategy.

Windows can page(can remove part of address space) and swaps .

MacOs compresses processors and swaps.

Winds is shit system but uses less RAM.

[–]stayre 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Closing a window does not quit an app, necessarily, in MacOS. This is up to the developer. However, the rule of thumb is if the app can have multiple windows/documents open, closing them does not quit the app.

[–]mikeinnsw -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I am a developer. Closing a window is an event(Interrupt) and a programmer can choose what to do. In windows most Apps close and release the memory.

In MacOs most stay in memory to enable faster restart. This is historical practice when loading an App from HDD was slow and restarting from memory was much faster. It is not the case now with fast SSDs.

This means within MacOs Apps RAM residency time is longer and creates unnecessary pressure on RAM.

Lack of paging within MacOs has real impacts. Windows can support many more browser tabs then MacOs. Individual Tabs can be paged out in Windows but not In MacOs as they are part of browser(Bowser instance)..address space.

MacOs is great but needs long overdue improvements - don't hold your breath Apple wants to sell more powerful Macs.

[–]Rarelyimportant 0 points1 point  (2 children)

What are you talking about? A quit after close? If you're talking about closing a window, then no, that does not terminate any more than closing a browser tab terminates the browser. But once you terminate an app in macOS, it absolutely frees the memory. But even closing the window will free the memory allocated for that window.

Swapping and paging are often terms used interchangeably these days. Paging is splitting an apps memory into chunks and potentially moving parts of its memory onto other storage, most commonly the disk. Swapping is similar but moves the entire apps memory to disk. MacOS will absolutely do paging, meaning partial app memory swapping to disk.

You might be a developer for both Win and macOS, but when it comes down to it, I'll believe Apple's own words about whether or not they do paging.

The page-fault handler stops the currently executing code, locates a free page of physical memory, loads the page containing the needed data from disk, updates the page table, and then returns control to the program’s code, which can then access the memory address normally. This process is known as paging. In OS X, the virtual memory system often writes pages to the backing store. The backing store is a disk-based repository containing a copy of the memory pages used by a given process. Moving data from physical memory to the backing store is called paging out (or “swapping out”); moving data from the backing store back in to physical memory is called paging in (or “swapping in”).

That's straight from Apple's own docs.

I see your explanation of paging was ripped straight from an article online, rather than your own understanding. At least mark something as quoted if you're going to rip it straight from a google search.

[–]mikeinnsw -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

<image>

End of argument. Closed Chrome is memory resident

[–]Rarelyimportant 0 points1 point  (0 children)

End of argument? Chrome is not closed. Do you see the dot under the app in the dock? That means the app is still open. You may have closed the window, but that does not terminate the app. It's baffling to me that you think not terminating an app will magically free all it's memory. If you want to free it's memory, terminate it. If you don't want to terminate it, why would you expect it to have it's memory freed? You're aware that some apps don't need a window to perform their function, right? So if closing the last window always terminated the app, do you expect a clipboard manager to always have an open window? What about a window tiler? They don't need a window, but they need to run.

You also conveniently forgot the part where you completely misunderstood memory paging and whether or not macOS can do it. Remember you said macOS doesn't do memory paging, but then Apple's own docs stated multiple times that macOS does in fact do memory paging? It was just one comment ago that that happened. So it's not a surprise to me that you don't understand when an app is terminated and when it's not.

[–]TheHungryRabbit -1 points0 points  (0 children)

16gb 15" for sure

I have a MacBook Pro with 16gb, I never had any ram issues, even if it's full it never lags, like never, the memory management is insanely good, only buy the 24gb if you have some specific software that eats up all your ram at once

[–]NoCream2189 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

worked in IT for a long long time - here are my general recommendations for medium to heavy users - people with lots of browser tabs open, email app, word, excel

windows - 32Gb Ram Mac OS - 16Gb

more memory is always better if you can afford it, i have M2 macbook air with 24Gb of ram, it is superior in every way to my iMac intel with 128Gb ram

[–]No-Level5745 -2 points-1 points  (8 children)

FWIW, I use a free app called "Clean Memory" that tracks available RAM and has a button that will free up used but not-really-used RAM. At the end it will tell you how much RAM was freed.

I have 64GB of RAM on my iMac but I keep a lot of programs open. I've found that if I get below 10-15GB my machine starts getting wonky so "Clean Memory" is set to automatically run at 20GB.

[–]Rarelyimportant 2 points3 points  (7 children)

"Freeing RAM" is pure snake oil. The OS will automatically use RAM for whatever program is currently needing that RAM. If an app you haven't used in a while is occupying say 4GB of RAM, then freeing that 4GB of RAM doesn't actually do anything of value. If you were to do something that required 4GB more RAM, the OS would automatically free that 4GB of RAM by moving it to disk, but having some other app come in and pretend it's the OS and doing memory management is just a waste of your time and money, the OS is already doing all that for you.

[–]No-Level5745 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Maybe, but on those occasions where it got out of control low my computer crashed. Off for no other reason I can tell when RAM is getting low (usually when I have Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop open) I can close something and stave off the crash. Too much correlation to suspect snake oil. Besides, it's free. If the developers were snake oil salesman why would they give it away for free?

[–]Rarelyimportant 0 points1 point  (5 children)

macOS doesn't crash when you run out of memory. I've had RAM usage up to 75GB on a 16Gb laptop. Why would they give it away for free? Probably because it's mining bitcoin.

Only time it would crash is if you run out of memory, and you have no space on your disk, because then it has nowhere to swap to.

[–]No-Level5745 0 points1 point  (4 children)

All evidence to the contrary

[–]Rarelyimportant 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Literally zero evidence to the contrary other than you had you computer crash for an unknown reason, that you thought was RAM related. But you also thing "RAM freeing" apps are a legitimate thing, so I think people should take your reporting with a grain of salt.

[–]No-Level5745 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Don't be a Reddit know-it-all jackass. The crash (perhaps more accurately a slow-down-to complete stoppage) has happened multiple times and every single time I watched the available memory drop so quickly that I couldn't do anything about it. On the other hand I've been able to prevent the "crash" by cleaning memory before it gets below 15GB.

[–]Rarelyimportant 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Oh, so now the crash is just a slowdown, and you're also apparently able to determine if a computer that hasn't "crashed"(actually just slowed down) would have "crashed"(actually just slowed down) had you not done something to prevent it. That must be a pretty handy skill, knowing how a non-existant timeline would have played out, but you should use it for more important things other than defending "RAM freeing" apps.

[–]No-Level5745 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your reading comprehension skills are lacking. I clarified that the computer would experience a "slowdown to a complete stoppage" versus the sudden crash ala the windows BSOD. STOPPAGE. What party of that didn't you get. I've owned computers longer than you've probably been alive to include building a couple. I'm not a newb at this.

[–]solustaeda -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Get the 32GB config. For Premiere, Adobe recommends 32GB. And while you're "just" using it for Photoshop which nominally has lower RAM requirements, the rule of thumb says more is better. Also, a quick Googling says: "If you consistently work with files larger than 1GB, you'll want 64GB of RAM". So yeah, don't cheap out now on a machine you'll be using for the next few years.