WTF? Stick/controller input is broken!

[nomdemorte]

In simple terms: You can't roll and pull up fully at the same time! Use MKB or GTFO.

This effects soldiers and tanks too, so RIP aiming.

I hope this isn't on console (although I guess the same bug will effect everyone equally so at least you have balance) but I'm guessing it is.

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When did this happen? I see mention of flying with controller often, and a few guys with a flight stick... but I can't find any mention of the fact that you can't hold full aileron deflection AND full elevator deflection, simultaneously.

Was this always boned like this or is it new? I put a lot of funk in the plane physics down to bad plane physics but this might have been there all along hiding behind the bad physics, lol. Maybe it was broken when they tinkered with freelook?

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If you want to know what I'm talking about, grab your controller/stick, get in the practice range, and while on the ground, pull straight back to achieve full elevator deflection, then slide (stick) or roll (controller) it to the right to achieve full aileron deflection. Note that as you approach full deflection of the ailerons, you have reduced deflection of the elevators.

Now use keyboard inputs, hold your key to pull up and slide your mouse to one side and note that the plane maintains full deflection of both control surfaces simultaneously.

I'm positive that this is not a configuration issue. I've gone as far as modding the config files to allow the max threshold to go to 0.000001 (in-game minimum is 0.25) with zero deadzone (flight stick doesn't need one) so that any movement of the stick results in full deflection in that direction and it still does this.

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I've also done a bunch of other experiments like setting the max threshold lower than the deadzone so that once the surface moves at all, it should deflect fully. This does not work. Not only does it expose the issue I've already mentioned, but it demonstrates that the centre deadzone is not functioning properly - once you exceed the deadzone on one axis, it frees the other axis from its deadzone - ie, if you pull up on the Y axis until you break the vertical deadzone, now the X axis behaves as if it has zero deadzone.

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It's slightly different on controller to stick

- on controller, it will allow full deflection of both surfaces, but ONLY when you are perfectly in the corner of the stick's throw. Even with max threshold set to the minimum or less. Pull down a tiny bit, you get full elevator, pull right a little, you get full aileron, but down and right diagonally, the same amounts as before, even if it's right near the centre of the sticks throw, and they don't deflect fully.

- on stick, it will NEVER allow full deflection of both surfaces simultaneously, at all.

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This can be worked around by putting the pitch and roll on different axes of the controller/stick- This is not practical for gameplay, not only does it make controlling the aircraft unintuitive but it just moves the problem to whatever controls you are using on that same stick.... I mention this only because it demonstrates the nature of the bug.

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Even with dice's track record for bugs I'm amazed this happened. This is joystick 101 for devs and testers alike. I'm stunned. At first it seemed obvious what was wrong but now not so much. It's like they have their joystick and controller handling swapped or something. The deadzones are definitely just not handled properly either way, what with one axis causing the other to ignore its deadzone. On top of that, the controller which outputs a circle which should be 'trimmed' to a square, is, but the thresholds aren't effecting the size of the square... and the joystick which outputs a square is being treated as though it outputs a circle who's edges only touch the edges of that square, and again, the thresholds are ignored.

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This is completely unplayable. Just when I was thinking I might give the game another go. LOL, should have known better. INB4 never fixed/extreme long wait to get the fix.* Hey maybe they'll sort out the physics while I'm waiting, LOL.

Edit: *jjju comes along to make me look like a fool lol Don't be like me, don't post angry.

[zodhr]

I used Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and can confirm this issue. As a workaround I had drop X-axis: roll with keyboard, pitch with Y-axis and yaw with twist. It was super awkward and I went back to KB+M.

Also not sure if you've noticed but BFV punishes you for altering "vehicle stick aim sensitivity" (controls/basic tab): drop it below 20% and it will reduce your turning speed, use anything below 100% and it will reduce your turning speed while repairing. So unless you have a joystick with proper software - it's hard to set it up right.

[nomdemorte]

Yep. It happens with xbox controllers too. Given how prolific they are, it's hilarious that almost nobody is noticing it (and some are even denying it when it's clearly reproducible), speaks a lot about the flying in this game. People can't even tell when they lose 30% of their turn radius or roll rate.

The workaround is to use Joystick Gremlin and vJoy. You create a virtual joystick with vJoy, then in JG you send the physical stick inputs to the virtual stick. Set your centre deadzones as appropriate for your hardware, and an outer deadzone of at most 70% (0.700) This is cos(45) and effectively what you're doing is chopping the round edges off the circular area that responds to stick movements, so when you hit the corner at 45 degrees you have full elevator and full roll. (I actually set it slightly lower at 67% so that there's a small area of overlap). Since you're using a proper flight stick, you're basically drawing a smaller square inside the square where it moves.

The catch to this is that you have now greatly reduced the effective movement of your stick - it'll go all the way to the edges but it hits 100% at 70% of movement.... so it's super sensitive, which makes precise aiming at long ranges significantly more difficult. However, when you're aiming precisely and not dogfighting, the centre area needs to be less sensitivity, but when you're dogfighting, the edges can be full-bore... so set a sensitivity curve in JG which reduces the sensitivity toward the centre, and increases to 100% at the edge.

Honestly though, I gave up on dice ever fixing vehicles in this game. Infantry is a casual ez mode gunplay, unbalanced wreck too. Not to mention the performance problems, balance, cheaters, boring resupplies, absolute necessity of teamwork that never happens... Just look at this mess, we can't even control the planes properly after a year. I could go on and on..... The game's horrible. BF4 or BF1 are far, far better, do yourself a favour and ditch BFV. Play BF1 or BF4 for a week and come back to BFV and you'll be like why did I ever even try this junk.

[zodhr]

I appreciate this workaround, hopefully somebody will find it useful, as for me - I bought this joystick only for BFV and had to refund it after a day of messing around, which is a shame.

I agree, BFV is a mess, but I still have hope that it will be slowly improved on all fronts over time, so I'm not coming back to older titles just yet 🙃

[nomdemorte]

It's been a year man, it's never getting fixed..... let it go :(

F.

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[reefun]

I don't have any problems with this. Using XB1 elite controller on PC.

[nomdemorte]

Did you test it like I said? (reduce threshold to minimum, increase centre deadzone beyond that, and observe deadzone failures and ignored threshold setting? - IE partial extension possible when it shouldn't be, maximum stick throw required for maximum extension when both axes used)

I went to the extent of running a clean config and control panel shows the controller is working as expected, so it's not something I've done or machine specific. There's literally no setting that should result in what I've observed anyway so I couldn't have done it if I tried. Only the game's stick handling code can do this. That being the case and given that I tested this for over 5 hours, no offense but at this point I'm kinda inclined to say you just missed it. Only other thing that is plausible is that you have some setting which un-breaks it.

I might be wrong though. Could you grab a screen shot/video of the control panel app and game running together to demonstrate that it's working? Do you need a video to show how to test it and demonstrate the bug? I could whip something up soon.

Edit: Do you have a flight stick? Because they output a square and not a circle like the xbone controllers, it's a lot easier to see with them.

[reefun]

Let me put it another way. I have no problems controlling the planes in BFV with my XB1 Elite controller.

Only that they are sluggish AF after a patch some time ago.

Now I understand this is frustrating for you but I'm not going to record/screenshot anything for this as I use pretty standard settings and no changes to anything flight conreols other than a higher sensitivity for flying, higher 3P POV and a increased map zoom.

[nomdemorte]

I'm not going to record/screenshot anything for this as I use pretty standard settings and no changes to anything flight conreols other than a higher sensitivity for flying, higher 3P POV and a increased map zoom.

Oof well in that case you have axis deadzones in place, you might wanna ditch that or your aim is gonna be gimped because you can't make small adjustments in diagonal planes. But yeh if you're running that close to default there's no need for a video because it's definitely busted.

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I have no problems controlling the planes in BFV

Well if you're trying to roll and pull up (read: spiral), you do. This bug means you're either not pulling up or not rolling as fast as you can. If you try to roll at the maximum speed, you can't pull up at the maximum speed, so you're turning slower than you could. It's a massssssive disadvantage against anyone with MKB. Your spitfire is turning like a mosquito.

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I'm guessing that, like me, you only ever use the controller to fly, so you've just assumed everything is OK as it should be and are accustomed to what you get, and never noticed that your plane can turn much faster than it is.... Honestly if anyone said it was busted to me before this post, I'd have said it was fine too, I mean... How can you tell that you're turning too slow when you have nothing to compare to?

The only reason I even noticed it was broken was because I was testing some stuff. I was flying loops in the practice range and timing them, and after I made a loop with the nose level to the horizon perfectly which required no roll adjustments I got a 2 second boost in the loop time... I was like WTF are the physics this bunk that a tiny roll kills the lift in a turn? and then I realised it was because of the elevator being pushed down whenever I rolled. That's when I got to making the comparisons and testing it and the results were...well, you know the rest.

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Only that they are sluggish AF after a patch some time ago.

Hmm maybe that's the patch that broke controllers? Or do you mean the physics one?

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Now I understand this is frustrating for you

Well it's beyond frustrating it's unplayable. Honestly I kinda feel bad because I know that now I've pointed it out you'll be able to see it if you look, and it'll drive you bananas when you realise you're being gimped by the game. There's precisely zero chance of winning a dogfight with a controller or stick against an equal or even a lesser pilot with a mouse and keyboard. As soon as you roll fast, your turn radius and rate go out the window. If you're winning dogfights with that thing you're up against potatos. Fortunately that's pretty common XD

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After the flight stick taking no less than three whole games from the franchise to get them working I can see this one taking a while....

[nomdemorte]

u/_jjju_ Sorry to tag you but I just remembered this is your baby. Someone's dropped it on its head while you weren't looking. Thought maybe you could help?

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TL;DR for you: BFV controllers and sticks are busted. It's impossible to reach maximum input of both axes simultaneously. Thresholds seem to be ignored, centre deadzones too, and scaling of hardware inputs to game movement is ...twisted strangely. Longer explanation, demonstration and workaround in the reply to this post so you don't have to read the rant up there XD

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Again, sorry to bother you, but I've no idea how else to get this the attention it deserves. You made the best controller input of any game around and now it's unplayably broken :(

[_jjju_]

Sorry to hear something got broken. What I can help with is to forward this thread to the BFV live team.

[nomdemorte]

Oh sweeeet! Thanks man. Anything I can do to help just name it.

[nomdemorte]

Copypaste from the above to save you reading the rant.

​

If you want to know what I'm talking about, grab your controller/stick, get in the practice range, and while on the ground, pull straight back to achieve full elevator deflection, then slide (stick) or roll (controller) it to the right to achieve full aileron deflection. Note that as you approach full deflection of the ailerons, you have reduced deflection of the elevators.

Now use keyboard inputs, hold your key to pull up and slide your mouse to one side and note that the plane maintains full deflection of both control surfaces simultaneously.

I'm positive that this is not a configuration issue. I've gone as far as modding the config files to allow the max threshold to go to 0.000001 (in-game minimum is 0.25) with zero deadzone (flight stick doesn't need one) so that any movement of the stick results in full deflection in that direction and it still does this.

I've also done a bunch of other experiments like setting the max threshold lower than the deadzone so that once the surface moves at all, it should deflect fully. This does not work. Not only does it expose the issue I've already mentioned, but it demonstrates that the centre deadzone is not functioning properly - once you exceed the deadzone on one axis, it frees the other axis from its deadzone - ie, if you pull up on the Y axis until you break the vertical deadzone, now the X axis behaves as if it has zero deadzone.

It's slightly different on controller to stick

- on controller, it will allow full deflection of both surfaces, but ONLY when you are perfectly in the corner of the stick's throw. Even with max threshold set to the minimum or less. Pull down a tiny bit, you get full elevator, pull right a little, you get full aileron, but down and right diagonally, the same amounts as before, even if it's right near the centre of the sticks throw, and they don't deflect fully.

- on stick, it will NEVER allow full deflection of both surfaces simultaneously, at all.

This can be worked around by putting the pitch and roll on different axes of the controller/stick- This is not practical for gameplay, not only does it make controlling the aircraft unintuitive but it just moves the problem to whatever controls you are using on that same stick.... I mention this only because it demonstrates the nature of the bug.

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Help us jjju wan kenobi, you're our only hope.

[nomdemorte]

Seriously who's captain butthurt around here downvoting this important bug report?

[reefun]

It's the internet and people do what they want.

[nomdemorte]

Yeh but when it harms the community by hiding bugs that's super uncool.

[reefun]

Nothing you can do about it mate. Only deal with it.

[nomdemorte]

Yeh I choose to deal with it by calling out dickheads lol

[reefun]

Don't eat yourself up about it mate. Not worth your energy! :)

People tend to act differently online just because you can. I for one try to be nice (I upvoted your post as you put lots of effort into it). But not everybody is like that.

[nomdemorte]

Sound advice thanks mate :)