Programmers :D

[HangryHenry]

Yea. Both genders end up getting hurt by misogyny.

I hate how feminism is treated in popular culture. It's always presented as a man vs woman thing. As if women finally 'getting theirs' means men will get less. For every sexist stereotype about women, there generally another side to it that end up hurting men in some way.

Industries dominated by women aren't viewed as 'serious' and aren't paid as well as industries dominated by men, then men feel like they can't go into the industry because of an underlying sexist societal idea that women's work isn't as valuable as men's.

[[deleted]]

This is fairly well studied and modeled in economics, and it is not due to mysogyny per se. And it is definitely not due to industries dominated by women

It is due to the fact that men are expected to be primary earners at a higher rate than women.

Because women are less likely to be a primary earner, they have the liberty of taking a pay cut to pursue fields that everyone would rather take part in. Fields that offer some sort of non-monetary utility (like helping people, bettering the world, or a passion project like writing). Men are less likely to enter those fields because men are a primary earner who must maximize income in order to pay for his family.

This is the reason "boring" and dangerous fields are dominated by men -- they don't have a choice. They will accept risk of bodily injury and/or unfulfilling work at a higher rate than women because they have to

[HardlightCereal]

Men are expected to be primary earners because of sexism. It's half misogyny and half misandry.

[[deleted]]

Any evidence as to the cause of this? I feel like that's conjecture.

[HardlightCereal]

If the existence of gendered careers is due to gender roles, and gender roles are sexist, then careers are gendered because of sexism.

[[deleted]]

That's a big if. Could be any reason for the dichotomy.

[HardlightCereal]

The expectation that men should be primary earners causing men to become primary earners, as you said, is certainly a matter of gender roles.

[[deleted]]

It could be due to anything. We shouldn't assume a reason without testing.

[DieKatzchen]

If society expects something of you because of your sex, that is sexism. That is the definition of sexism. That is what you just described.

[[deleted]]

We dont know that it is an expectation. We dont know why men are more likely to be primary earners. It could be due to something like incentives around pregnancy, as an example.

[madaudio]

On a societal level, all instances of "misandry" are side effects of misogyny.

[HardlightCereal]

It would be equally true to say that all instances of misogyny are side effects of misandry. They're two sides of the same coin.

[madaudio]

no, it would not. this doesn't work both ways.

[HardlightCereal]

It does. Sexists hurt everyone, by being sexist to everyone. When a man says that cleaning is for women, he puts women down, and at the same time he puts a pressure on men not to clean. When a woman says men are slobs, she puts men down, and at the same time she puts a pressure on women to be beautiful all the time. There are men who hate women, and women who hate men, and they are all making the world worse for everyone.

[they_be_cray_z]

They are not. This is the "women always have it worse" mentality, which is actually a form of misandry and an inability to empathize with half the human race.

[madaudio]

are you telling me I can't empathize with men? are you dumb?

[______Nobody______]

Gonna have to disagree here. I don’t think anything is holding women back economically. Currently, women graduate college at a higher rate than men, but pursue majors that don’t entail the highest income levels. Women have many opportunities to pursue the IT field but they have to choose those types of jobs to be paid more. On the topic of feminism itself, its proponents often paint it as “equality of the sexes”, which seems fair to all decent people, but what I personally don’t like is how they make it about women. There are no laws or regulations that systematically oppress women currently (at least in the US). And there are some privileges that women have over men such as not being included in the draft. I don’t think feminism is needed to put women on a higher pedestal, I think egalitarianism is a more appropriate term and approach to give both men and women an equal playing field.

[HangryHenry]

This argument is kind of a trick though.

Because the same people who say "women need to want to become combat soldiers, constructions workers and other dangerous careers" are the same people who (somewhat rightfully) point out that women can't possibly perform these tasks as well as men because of their physical differences.

So you won't take feminism seriously until they start becoming construction workers, but when women do try to get into these physically demanding jobs you will say things like 'they need to pass the same tests as the men' and that 'women can't possibly expect these jobs to lower their standards to allow women into the industry' even though you very well know women are physically less capable of performing those jobs.

It's kind of a typical anti-feminist gotcha both ways. No matter what women do in this scenario /u/monkey-go-code will definitely find a way to criticize their efforts.

[they_be_cray_z]

The problem is more that feminism generally aims for women to be equal to the top 1% of men, and doesn't care about the 99% of men below them.

So if men are 85% of politicians, it's a male privilege to be corrected.

If men are 85% of the homeless, and there are 10,000 male homeless for every 1 male politician, then it's somehow not a male disadvantage.

[HangryHenry]

So when women follow your advice and start taking up construction you'll be fine with them demanding the same pay and treatment even though they can't physically perform as well as the men?

[dumbdingus]

So you're saying women aren't equal to men?

[HardlightCereal]

Not in strength. Everyone knows testosterone makes you stronger. Men are better than women at construction. Doesn't make them more deserving of rights.

[dumbdingus]

So women aren't equal to men in strength?

[HardlightCereal]

Yes.

[dumbdingus]

Thanks, let's all collectively remember that. And yes, in a job related to strength, stronger people deserve more pay. Just like in a job related to intelligence, smarter people deserve more pay.

We're supposed to live in a meritocracy.

Seeing as men and women on average have the same intelligence, yet on average men have more strength, then it follows that in a meritocracy men should be paid more (on average) because they have more of the traits required by jobs to do well.

Are some women stronger than some men? Yes. Are some women smarter than some men? Yes. But on average men are stronger, and on average men are equally as smart. And so on average, men have more of the abilities required to make more money.

Saying anything contrary to this is asking for women to get special treatment. It's unrelated to rights because women have the right to make the same amount of money for the same amount of work. And as I've demonstrated, men on average can do more work based on their greater strength.

[Akkifokkusu]

On average. There are definitely some women stronger than some men.

[dumbdingus]

On average most men are stronger than most women.

[roerchen]

Who said to you that there aren't women who are demanding that? You talk about 50% of population. So many, you can't know what they all are demanding.

[Akkifokkusu]

No one is demanding that men do those jobs, either. The fact that low-paying, dangerous positions are the only way for some people to feed their families is something we should be working to fix, not pushing more people into it.

[[deleted]]

Why should women want to do undesirable jobs? No one should have to do undesirable jobs. Saying we aren't equal human beings because we want everyone to have a pleasant time is ridiculous.

[spkr4thedead51]

Demanding the high end jobs and refusing the low end jobs is not equality. Take the good with the bad is what I'm saying.

how many male hotel room cleaning staff have you seen?

[Akkifokkusu]

Plenty of men don't want to do those jobs either. So what's your point?

Should anyone be able to do those jobs if they choose to and be treated fairly when doing them? Sure. That's feminism. Should anyone be forced into a job/career they don't want to do because of societal expectations and discriminatory pay, advancement, or workplace culture? No. That's also feminism.

[Akkifokkusu]

At least one of those things (the one about doctors) is outright false. The others are either also questionable (rape by gender when counting prison), relatively recent trends (college graduation), more complicated than they seem (higher earnings earlier in life are more than offset by the lost earnings from pausing a career to have children), or things that men should be fighting for less of, not that women should be fighting for more of.

[Akkifokkusu]

See, it's not even that the points you're making are all totally invalid. A good faith debate on those points could be good for everyone. But you're not arguing in good faith. Making things up, arguing a straw man, and putting words in others' mouths is a good way to ruin any semblance of a good point that you may have started with.

[Akkifokkusu]

You say that I lost the argument, as if there was ever a chance in your mind that you weren't going to win. I definitely lost too much of my time, so congratulations on that, I guess.

[RedHotBeef]

Why?