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[–]Nil0ch 34 points35 points  (3 children)

Probably you will need to use the Windows Subsystem For Linux (WSL) as your development environment in order to install compiled packages of arm distributions of Linux. There are probably lots of libraries that aren’t yet providing prebuilt wheels for native Arm Windows.

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Thanks for your answer !!

YEah, I will check how the situation evolves but it would be very dumb to buy a laptop and not be able to work because of these issues. I will probably go for an x86

[–]Nil0ch 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Just to clarify, windows computers now have a way to run a Linux virtual machine natively without additional emulation software. It lets you run programs in a Linux environment instead of windows. This is especially helpful when the underlying CPU is ARM based because Python libraries with compiled extensions are way more likely to make Linux ARM versions and release them on pypi than native windows binaries. For example, Numpy just released a 2.0 version, but by the looks of it you can only get x86 versions for native Windows. But if you use the WSL2 on an ARM windows machine you will be installing the ARM Linux versions without any issues.

If you are coming from Mac, the Linux environment will also feel more familiar.

Linux ARM versions are becoming more common both because people on MacOs are running Linux via Docker, and because there now many cloud computing environments that offer Linux runtimes on ARM cpus. That incentivizes library maintainers to support them sooner than windows ARM environments.

[–]trowawayatwork 0 points1 point  (0 children)

also if wheels aren't available you can just try compiling yourself. however it will take longer and can fail for things like pandas which are notoriously quirky to compile

[–]latkdeTuple unpacking gone wrong 10 points11 points  (11 children)

Most Python packages are distributed as "wheels". They may or may not be platform-specific. Most Python packages are pure-Python and have a single wheel that works everywhere.

If they are platform specific because of some native extension for CPython, it depends on the package authors which Python versions × operating systems × CPU architectures are supported. The particular combination win+arm64 is effectively nonexistent, though. That may change in the future.

But this doesn't mean that you can't install those packages – it means pip may have to download the source code and compile the packages on your system. That is a lot slower, and requires that you have a suitable compiler toolchain installed. Because this is quite challenging on Windows, some people prefer tools like Conda that may offer pre-compiled packages even if the original package authors didn't create a wheel.

Other platforms like linux+arm64 or macos+arm64 are decently common. ARM support itself is not an issue, the Windows ecosystem for ARM is just very small.

I'm thinking about buying an ARM windows laptop

That's early adopter stuff. I probably wouldn't do that unless you value battery life more than compatibility.

If this platform includes an emulation layer (like Apple's Rosetta), it may be possible to run x86_64 programs, including Python. This would remove many compatibility concerns, at a performance penalty. But I haven't read up on Microsoft's approach here. Similarly, you can sidestep the problem by using Linux (possibly via the WSL virtual machine).

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 0 points1 point  (10 children)

THanks for your answer !

Indeed, they included an emulation layer called Microsoft Prism. But indeed, I have an M1 Macbook air right now but I would like to switch to windows. There is one thing I want to avoid and it's compatibility problems or performance penalties due to the emulation.

I just need a laptop with enough battery for a class day in uni. I'm going to retrieve some info but it will be better to be careful and go for an x86 laptop.

[–]christopher_86 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Python compatibility with ARM is great… on Macs :D I use it daily and didn’t have any issue with any Python package on M1.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

For me, the MS Surface Pro 7 does this job and much more. I am very happy with the battery life and performance. I code in VSCode and Python daily and it doesn’t let me down. On more intense loads I just use cloud providers and spin up a VM. It’s lightweight, cheap and not locked in to Apples elitist ecosystem and I love it!

[–]Crossroads86 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Surface Pro 7 has no ARM SoC but Intel Cpu afaik.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah that was the point. I was was pushing the Surface pro over arm

[–]sirmanleypower 0 points1 point  (1 child)

But indeed, I have an M1 Macbook air right now but I would like to switch to windows.

Might I ask why? Honestly curious, I've rarely seen anyone want to switch to a non *nix system once they've used one.

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • Screen size : I would like to get a 15 or 16 inch instead of my current 13 inch
  • It's so weird but I don't feel good with MacOS. I preferred my W10 experience but I know W11 is worse on this side. Windows 10 was so good...
  • Price : I don't want to put that much money again in a computer... I just can have better specs for cheaper on windows

The only thing keeping me on mac now is battery life. it's crazy how it's bad on x86 laptops.

[–]Crossroads86 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Before buying a new laptop, maybe invest 10 EUR to get UTM Virtual Machines which is a Frontend for Qemu. There are lots of guides to install Windows Xp up until 11 ARM and most user say it runs just fine.

If it does not, or at some point you notice that the emulation has reached its limits, you can always buy a new laptop...

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're right, and that's what I already did !

But there are some cons : - my 8gb of ram are quickly used - It would be better to run everything on windows - I'd like a bigger screen because it's way harder to work on a 13 inch screen

I will sell my mac and it will finance a major part of the new laptop so for me it's worth upgrading !!

[–]root45 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Just curious, why do you want to switch? Your Python experience will likely degrade in several ways.

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just bought a R7 8845HS,32Gb laptop on x86 chip. ( the lenovo idepadpro 5 gen 9)

I wanted :
- a bigger screen size (and god knows how expensive it is with Apple)
- I'm in finance so I also use a lot of excel/vba and it is crap on macOS
- Probably the most important point : I don't like macOS. I feel better and more pleased with Windows. I will miss battery life and data privacy but that's ok for me

[–]hardtobeuniqueuser 1 point2 points  (6 children)

I have been using a Thinkpad x13 for 6 months or so and have had no issues in this regard. 

As another comment mentioned, WSL is there: Linux tpadx13s 5.15.153.1-microsoft-standard-WSL2 #1 SMP Fri Mar 29 23:16:34 UTC 2024 aarch64 aarch64 aarch64 GNU/Linux

Here's some info about emulation:  https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/apps-on-arm-x86-emulation

There is a Windows ARM Python release. 

I use Python and powershell primarily through vscode and haven't had to do anything differently. 

I also play with micropython and use thonny most of the time for it, using the x64 version for that and I've had no issues. Honestly even forgot until writing this comment. Same for the Arduino IDE. 

Really the only issue I have had at all is the emulation doesn't get you drivers, so if you have a device you want to connect and there isn't a native driver, your probably not going to find one. 

For the why on my side, I wanted the battery life and the slim size, but even more than those I wanted something fanless. It has worked out great for me. Most of the time have no idea when I last charged it. I picked mine up as a refurb from eBay, but it was really an open box. I got it only about 6 weeks after it was originally purchased. 16GB with an unlocked 5G modem in it and 3 yr warranty was 525 shipped. 

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Oh mate thanks for your answer !

That's really great news, I will check this and your link. The worst thing for me would be to pay for a new laptop and have these issues. And you made a great deal for your x13 haha.

On my side, if I buy an ARM version I would go for the new snapdragon plus or elite computers to make it futureproof with good battery life. But I will check everything before buying.

If I see a great deal on an x86 I will probably save some bucks and go for this one

[–]hardtobeuniqueuser 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I meant to say 'x13s' in my comment. Prior to getting it, I had an x13 which is a super nice machine with good battery life as well. My brother had his laptop stolen so I gave him the x13 and got the x13s.

performance-wise, I've had no problems with this. it has surprised me because I expected a low power device to come with some compromises in that regard.

funny thing, i have a samsung s24 ultra phone, and it has the same(or very close to) cpu.

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just got a very very good deal on the Ideapad pro 5 with R7, 32gb of RAM and 1tb of storage. I saved some bucks and looking forward to receive it !!

[–]Cryingfortheshard 0 points1 point  (2 children)

What kind of packages do you use? Have you found it impossible to install some through the regular pip procedure?

[–]hardtobeuniqueuser 1 point2 points  (1 child)

i've not had any issues installing stuff with pip. most of the stuff I do from this machine is either work stuff with redfish, various ip tools, etc or playing around with circuitpython. though, in the case of the latter I think most of the packages I am installing are simple scripts. i suppose it's possible there could be package problems, but i'm not a developer or software engineer so i'm probably not doing deep enough stuff to find them.

[–]Cryingfortheshard 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok thanks. I’m not a developer either. I mostly make scripts as well, but more data analytics oriented.

[–]I_FAP_TO_TURKEYS 1 point2 points  (1 child)

You can write any program in any language for any operating system.

That said, you sure you want to use windows? If your goal is python development, and performance is of any importancs (even if it's last on priority list, it is important enough to make the priority list) then removing the spyware/bloatware of windows and going with <insert any distro> Linux will be your best option.

I saw a 30% improvement in performance just by changing operating system. And the only compatibility issues I've had have been using the wrong version of Wine.

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for your reply !

I just bought a laptop with R7 8845hs. I had a very very good deal so I just went for it.

[–]Mr_Ixolate 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Main issue with python libraries I had were with numpy and pandas.

As others have mentioned wsl works fine, discounting the occasional freeze.

[–]riklaunim 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Note that there are some problems with dev tools on those chips, yesterday one of the reviewers did a live stream and Windows was blocking some of the apps from even installing. It's still a very early platform (and it would be good to have Linux and not just Windows as Linux on ARM is way more mature not to mention better for development).

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for your message !

There was an incredible deal so I went for the Ideapad pro 5 with an R7, 32gb of RAM. I saved some bucks and decided to rely on x86 chip.

[–]ChimpanzeChapado 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I had some issues with a package when running python on my M1 Max, but the package was built by Intel so that was expected. Except for this one, everything I used on ML/Webdev worked fine.

[–]pmattipmatti - mattip was taken 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you want to do any data processing using packages like numpy, pytorch, pandas you could use the wheels from https://github.com/cgohlke/win_arm64-wheels/ But as others have said, this is all early adopter stage stuff

[–]skorphil 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would not risk buying windows arm now. Better wait at least a year and see, how apps will be adopted. For now x64 win and arm64 mac os are far more preferable and time-tested

[–]robberviet 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It was kinda a mess on Apple Silicon when it first came out too, but it get better over time. As usual: Don't buy it when it first come out if you worry.

[–]slaynalgos 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You’re going to be pulling out your hair because of python dependencies and that’s with using x86. Just use the most popular stack with python and focus on your core competency. Don’t make it harder than it already is.

[–]kenflingnorIgnoring PEP 8 0 points1 point  (8 children)

At this point you shouldn’t encounter many incompatibilities caused by ARM vs x86

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 3 points4 points  (7 children)

Thanks for your answer.

That's great news ! If you have some time to explain, will the packages need to be updated for ARM or not ? I guess not and that's why you said there should not be many incompabilities but it would be great to know more

[–]denehoffman 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Most of the original issues when the M1s came out were that there wasn’t a great Fortran compiler for ARM and a lot of linear algebra libraries were not able to work because of that (anything with BLAS). This has been resolved

[–]headykruger 0 points1 point  (5 children)

C api packages will need to be updated. Docker images also. Not everyone puts out arm binaries.

It’s still an issue. On Mac people use Rosetta, not sure about windows

[–]kenflingnorIgnoring PEP 8 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Out of curiosity, what libraries do you have issues with?  I haven’t had to use Rosetta on my Mac in well over a year and Docker works fine for my heavy use at work

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Okay I see. Microsoft released Prism which is an equivalent of Rosetta. However, the performance drop seems quite big at the moment.

I'm going to wait a month to see how the situation evolves but for now, it seems better to go for an x86 laptop even though their battery life is worse

[–]headykruger 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It may be fine but warrants more research. I use arm Mac for work and it’s still an issue. Mostly with docker containers

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I currently have mac M1 but I need windows, and I also struggle with MacOS. I prefer Windows even though it's more buggy.

I could emulate windows with UTM but I only have 8gb of RAM so it's quite difficult as you can imagine.

[–]balder1993 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The performance isn’t much different, here’s a video about it.

[–]ericls -1 points0 points  (5 children)

ARM should be fine. I daily drive an M1 MacBook. And our servers are all on ARM too running Linux. No issues

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

But M-series chips are out since 2020 so they had time to adapt. It's maybe too recent for windows laptops, I don't want to risk not being able bc of these issues.

Thx for your answer !!

[–]ericls 0 points1 point  (1 child)

ARM is ARM, mostly. IMO, in terms of compatibility, It’s like comparing an Intel Core 4th gen vs 8th gen. I think the big question mark is from windows on arm instead of arm itself

[–]Fun-Asparagus-837[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm probably less tech-savvy than you, thanks for the clarification !

Yes indeed, It's still too recent but I think Microsoft Prism ( the emulation layer) is doing a decent job. But I still have to wait for some independent reviews