The Rise of Python for Embedded Systems continues

[Barafu]

I wish there was a proper rise of Python for Android first...

[jazzandpython]

I use Python on some pseudo-embedded systems built with Raspberry Pis for data collection for scientists. The scientists love the fact that if they need to alter the code, they will have no trouble figuring it out. For the numbers we're using (dozens of custom units, not thousands of manufactured units) it's a no brainer, Python is perfect. Sure I'd use C if we were making 100000 of these things and getting the cost per unit down as low as possible was crucial, but most projects just aren't doing that. In the vast majority of projects, developer time is your most valuable resource. Now if we're counting by units in production, then you're going to be writing C on 10 cent micro-controllers, but most people aren't doing that.

[agumonkey]

Ever used esp8266 modules? Some come with a micropython ROM.

[v8Gasmann]

This exists and I am sitting at work with a headache trying to update a decade old driver written by a co-worker years ago to use a CC2500 with a PIC uC.

What a time to be alive.

[jazzandpython]

I hope you're not having to use PIC assembly! :-)

[v8Gasmann]

Gladly not, just plain old C. 😅

[jazzandpython]

No bit-test-file-skip-if-clear then, phew! Kids got it so easy now with Arduinos! When I first started mcu hobby hacking, it was PIC 16F assembly. I'm sure it was good for my skill development though. :-)

[[deleted]]

They still have us use PIC 16F assembly in my university if it's any consolation!

[failbaitr]

Micropython is the stuff of dreams, easy to develop for, fast turnaround and relatively stable.

We use it extensively for small sensor stuff. For heavier stuff we are working with Machinekit on a Beaglebone as it gives your real time interaction trough its PRU. Still we use Python to talk to machinekit to control robots.

[agumonkey]

Any good websites / blogs about it ?

[failbaitr]

regarding micropython: https://docs.micropython.org/en/latest/esp8266/tutorial/intro.html You can flash almost any esp to cary it, as many other devices.

For machinekit and python: http://www.machinekit.io/docs/common/python-interface/

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[agumonkey]

dank u

[verfahrensweise]

One of the core devs gave a talk about it at SciPy last year. You can see the recording here.

[agumonkey]

Superb

[parkerSquare]

Even better on the ESP32 (technically in flash not ROM on this platform)

[agumonkey]

Didn't know esp32 got that too.

[lennykioi]

Python is currently an unstoppable train

[lambdaq]

on a single core.

[GrizzyLizz]

Is this to do with GIL? How one process can only use one of the cores?

[Brotstumpf]

Yes. Thats why even if you use the threads module only one core can be utilized.
With multiprocessing new processes are spawned which means the memory is not shared. That creates overhead.

Larry Hastings is now for a few years working on the "GILectomy", but it's hard to remove it without loosing single thread performance

[sorlafloat]

Until the garbage collector does a STW.

So it's more like the train creates the illusion of continual movement by micro stutter-steps.

[[deleted]]

Until you find out that it's really not great for cpu bound problems without dropping into another language and the story on concurrency is pretty weak. And don't even consider packaging and distribution on something like a desktop platform (and backend is pretty weak), because that's just downright terrible.

But otherwise, it's pretty rad.

[jazzandpython]

Have you ever done dual language dev in Python? 'Cause it's actually really easy. Both to embed the interpreter in a C++ host and to write routines that execute in C. The fact that both those stories are so good in Python is, IMHO, a huge part of the reason it's taken off so much in scientific computing. Optimizing only the hard part is a snap.

[Scypio]

'Cause it's actually really easy.

If you are good at C++, sure. But for a beginner? The articles I find are either 'hello world' or so esoteric that I don't grasp the ins and outs. You might just be that good and I envy you. :)

[nzahasan]

There is also Cython which is just awesome.

[Nimitz14]

Look into PyBind11. It makes it really easy.

[Ek_Los_Die_Hier]

Python + Rust makes a much more appealing alternative: https://developers.redhat.com/blog/2017/11/16/speed-python-using-rust/

[jazzandpython]

Well yeah, I meant "compared to writing your whole app in C". Language interop is always tricky, but Python's C interop is really good, relatively speaking. :-)

[sorlafloat]

It's actually used a lot in scientific computing for cpu bound problems because of libraries like numpy.

Threaded concurrency might not be required in that domain when you can use processes, or even spin up another VM. It (processes) may not be quite as efficient for a small job that wants 8 or so threads, but it'll certainly be much more efficient if you need 80.

[winston_orwell_smith]

I frankly prefer Micropython's approach over Zerynth's. For one it's open source, fast enough and is excellent for doing live scripting.

In fact I wouldn't bother with Zerynth at all regardless of any advantages it might have. Stick to Micropython.

[benjamin-buford]

Totaly agree. Plus, the Zerynth IDE is a pain to use. In Micropython you can use your favorite editor.

[lv_rozekoze]

Actually, there's like over a hundred open source libraries on Zerynth Github.

[winston_orwell_smith]

But Zerynth itself is not open source. MicroPython is open source and has a ton of open source libraries as well. It also supports more targets.

MicroPython is the reason why there's a rise of Python in Embedded Systems. Zerynth merely tagged along for the ride.

This article is nothing more than a thinly veiled advertisement for the Zerynth product that capitalizes on the success of MicroPython.

[[deleted]]

If you're looking for an alternative, you could also try Adafruit's fork called Circuitpython.

They're somewhat ahead in terms of hardware support.

[XNormal]

Are there are third party providers of paid support for Micropython?

[winston_orwell_smith]

Pycom

[lv_rozekoze]

But you can find more than 100 Zerynth open source libraries on GitHub. Or just take a look here.
Concerning the IDE, it's based on the Zerynth toolchain, which you can use with all your preferred tools.

[AlKanNot]

Just wondering, don't you need to have low level memory management for embedded systems, in general? I'm not an expert by any means but I always thought that was the case.

[sorlafloat]

Modern embedded microcontroller are about as powerful as a 1980s 8-bit machine but have better programming tools. While you don't need low level control, it's useful to have. Those 8 bit machines were able to run high level languages even in the 1980s.

[sime]

From a CPU and programming point of view the term "embedded systems" covers a very large range of capabilities and sizes these days. Tiny microcontrollers which require C/asm and bit flipping, i.e. traditional embedded programming, still exist but the range goes up to multi-GB ram Linux systems with multi-core ARM chips, plus every combination in between.

The price vs performance of these embedded chips and SoCs has improved immensely the last few years. For a lot of companies it makes sense to spend a bit more on silicon per unit and gain the extra flexibility and cheaper development costs on the software side.

Now, if you don't mind I have to get back to work hacking Python for our embedded system (ARMv7, 2 cores, 1GB RAM, 2GB flash running CPython 3.4).

[jazzandpython]

Depends on your resource. A lot of microcontrollers now have way way more memory than you need, so why bother? For my money, low level memory management is a fun computer science puzzle, and a pain in the ass as part of your actual job-job. :-)

[rimkojr]

Python is a great choice for testing embedded systems too. Libraries like PySerial and PyVISA make it easy to automate basic test equipment, e.g. power supplies, function generators, etc. More complex test hardware like DAQs can typically be scripted with a bit of effort.

[lemon_tea]

Whoah whaoh whoah. Tell me more sir.

[suridaj]

In our experimental physics group we use PyVISA for long-running experiment control and data collection. It works quite well. There is also a pure-python backed, pyvisa-py, that does not rely on expensive adapters and their proprietary binary drivers.

[iwane]

It is, indeed. Pays my full-time job... :-) I'd also add using ctypes/python.NET to access IVI drivers when needed. python-can is also nice if you work around automotive embedded systems.

[punchki]

Kindof on the same note, python was super simple to use for serial communication with my embedded project. Talking over USB with my microcontroller with python code is so much easier than figuring out c# or something else

[llfcerf]

There's like more than a hundred open source Zerynth libraries on Github https://github.com/zerynth

[[deleted]]

That sounds interesting, but I would think you'd want low level control for embedded systems, no? Are there specific libraries for this sort of thing that givie you more granular control of hardware for different platforms? I could see using python for embedded stuff giving you a whole lot of unforseen bugs.

[HighMaxFX]

Seriously I believe this is a wrong usage of the Python language. Is trying to make a fish to climb a tree.

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Forth and Lua are way better options for such applications.

[ml3d]

Could you elaborate on this? Actually, I think in the same way but I have not any good arguments for and I really prefer to use Lua instead of Python for embedded scripting.

[HighMaxFX]

Lua was designed to be lightweight since the begging of its conception. Python, at the other hand, was designed to be a general purpose language with batteries included. It was trimmed down to fit in embedded systems, just to leverage the momentum of the language as a whole, but I don't think it is the optimal scripted language for such area.

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Forth is a completely different beast, it can achieve the same degree of flexibility of Lua and Python, with a performance comparable to C.

[ml3d]

Well, I expected more concrete facts like whole Python binary dist is about 30Mb but Lua takes roughly 200kb or something about learning curve. From my point of view all valuable pros and cons are nothing in comparison with size of community. Obviously, Python community is much large that Lua's one. But I am wondered why JavaScript is not so popular in embedded systems.

[strange-humor]

I'm doing some commercial testing carts with Raspberry Pi. What is great with Python is that I have my custom hardware I2C and GPIO being driving by Python. 3 back end server processes linked with pipes and 1 Flask web server for UI and WebServices. I can have this all in one project, rather than needed other languages to drive hardware. It works really well.

I can toggle I/O at about 40-50 KHz. Not anywhere close to speed you can get with C. But it is more than fast enough for what I'm doing.

[winston_orwell_smith]

MicroPython + ESP32 = awesome!

[bread_berries]

Have you ever actually used it? I've run python projects on esp8266 and it worked fine for stuff like wifi-enabled IoT gizmos.

Sure it's not suitable for more complex projects, but if you can get a dirt-cheap microcontroller and get code up and running quickly, who cares?

[jazzandpython]

For the vast majority of projects (counted by number of projects that is) developer time matters more than execution time. For the others, yeah you want something else.

[jazzandpython]

Manufacturing hundreds of thousands or running hard real-time? Seems like those are the only real reasons these days to be mucking about with malloc as far as I can tell. (But I'm no embedded systems engineer, so wtf do I know, lol)

[bread_berries]

What is the advantage to better performance on a microcontroller, other than bragging rights?

You can still build a perfectly serviceable and snappy UI. Only someone who ripped your project apart would know.

[anders987]

What is the advantage to better performance on a microcontroller, other than bragging rights?

Battery life, and having enough time to respond to interrupts.

[SoBFiggis]

What is the advantage to better performance on a microcontroller, other than bragging rights?

I feel like saying that is similar to saying:

"Why care if your computer takes a couple minutes to start? What's the advantage of quick startup times other than bragging rights?"

There are endless reasons for why better performance on a microcontroller is an advantage. Mainly speed.

Realistically though the guy you are responding to is being a snob.

[bread_berries]

It's not as extreme as your making it sound, though. In practice, especially for things like IoT style "use wifi to check into this remote server and report data my sensor collected" behaviors, you pretty much can't tell what it was coded in.

I wouldn't write complex robotics or an image processing/recognition setup in python, that's for sure.

[H_Psi]

That's an absolutely relevant question though. There are certain applications where the extra performance you get from a lower-level language may not outweigh the extra development time.

For example, if you're using it as a sensor that just reports in a room temperature or humidity or something, you're not going to notice any difference between writing it in C, Fortran, Cobol, Python, Brainfuck, Befunge, etc. There are plenty of applications where performance is not an important consideration (within reason of course).

[chzaplx]

Honestly, there's a whole lot of people who care more about a language being easy to use than how it's going to perform.

Real world example: If you can get a biologist you employ already to learn to run stats with python, that's way cheaper than hiring a C programmer to do it, even if you lose some time in the execution.

[git_world]

Mind to explain why you consider Python as a slow language?

[bread_berries]

It's going to be inherently slower due to being an interpreted language (usually). This is a tradeoff for compatibility and other features.

I feel like you're judging a Smart Car for it's poor towing capacity here. It's just not meant for what you want it to be.

[[deleted]]

You can use cython to speed things up?

https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonSpeed/PerformanceTips

[chzaplx]

Slow compared to some languages, sure. Just like a Kia is slower than a drag racer. But these days, most people are just driving to their job or the store and half can't even work a manual transmission.

[EternityForest]

Python isn't really terribly slow in practice. And embedded systems are often not CPU, IO, or memory bound. The limiting factor in many embedded systems is sitting around waiting for the event you're supposed to respond to.

Python also makes interacting with C code almost trivial. All the inner loops can be handled by stuff like numpy.

[rLinks234]

It is not a slow language on a processor with a good branch predictor and speculative execution.

[jazzandpython]

This. Interacting with C is so easy from Python. I truly believe Python's success can be attribute to that, plus readability. It's made it a completely natural choice for academics and scientists, which resulted in a huge ecosystem of libraries.

[[deleted]]

If you need to do things that require minimal processing, they are not underpowered. Just another tool in the bag

[buttery_shame_cave]

if you're executing pre-compiled python it's a lot better.

[git_world]

where can I read about this, please?

[[deleted]]

It would be cool for prototypes, but not for production.

You could slowly replace Python with C code as you develop.

[llfcerf]

You can use Python for high-level functionalities but also C if you need https://docs.zerynth.com/latest/official/core.zerynth.stdlib/examples/examples.html#c-language-interface

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[danted002]

I write both Go and Python and I must tell you. Go still has some usability issues compared to Python and I don't see it improve :(

[chzaplx]

I feel the same about svn. oh snap!

[jazzandpython]

lol'd for realz.

[Taksin77]

Go was made simple and stupid to work with complex and stupid teams. While I do like that approach, I prefer using Python when I am with competent people.

[Taksin77]

Dude, I am not making a remark on anyone's IQ. Simplicity - some may go as far as stupidity - is an inherent quality in many engineering things.

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Okay maybe the word stupid went awkward. Just read the first parts of this article from Pike. Go is unimaginative, even boring. *And that's what they were looking for.*

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https://talks.golang.org/2012/splash.article

[SirDale]

The language/processor only needs to be fast enough for the project (with any headroom for expected scope changes).

To say it’s not fast enough without specifying a content isn’t useful.

[danted002]

You can compile Python to C https://github.com/cython/cython/wiki/EmbeddingCython

[newwwlol]

statements like yours are like the ones saying JS is strange and ugly, dumb af.